Hyperloop

[LordFerret]

On 5/12/2016 at 2:24 PM, AngelLestat said:

It does not seem like a source, also not sure what are the similarities with hyperloop..  more details please.

I'm not saying there's to be similarities to the proposed hyperloop, just that there's been (again) talk of a 'high speed train'. The discussion I've heard was with regard to some manner of  maglev system. As for more details, I'm afraid there aren't any publicly at the moment. Atlantic City has in the past been promised (more than once) and even given a train route of its own, but it failed (quite miserably)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City_Express_Service

If I can find a resource for the actual current 'official' discussion (about the Philly - A/C link), I'll post it.

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, LordFerret said:

I'm not saying there's to be similarities to the proposed hyperloop, just that there's been (again) talk of a 'high speed train'. The discussion I've heard was with regard to some manner of  maglev system. As for more details, I'm afraid there aren't any publicly at the moment. Atlantic City has in the past been promised (more than once) and even given a train route of its own, but it failed (quite miserably)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City_Express_Service

If I can find a resource for the actual current 'official' discussion (about the Philly - A/C link), I'll post it.

Problem with maglev systems is that they are way more expensive than standard high speed trains and not so much faster it make up for the cost. 
Conversational high speed trains can reach 400 km/h, conversational also have the benefit that its easy to switch you can even use existing tracks as an fallback 
Hyperloop has the same problems as maglev with the added problem of evacuating the passengers in an emergency. 
If you can't switch its limited to point to point, you would also have to increase the distance between the pods as if the control or brakes of one fails is should not ram the one in front who is braking. 
 

[kunok]

13 hours ago, Spaceception said:

Yes, seriously, I don't know everything.

Sorry if I looked rude.

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

I don't understand what makes it levitate. I heard that they used air jets, and sucked air from the tube. BUT THE TUBE IS EVACUATED ! WHAT?

[PB666]

6 minutes ago, Emperor of the Titan Squid said:

I don't understand what makes it levitate. I heard that they used air jets, and sucked air from the tube. BUT THE TUBE IS EVACUATED ! WHAT?

please, its electromagnetic repulsion using superconductors and supercooling. 

[Kerbart]

On 12 May 2016 at 2:13 PM, LordFerret said:

not to mention that Amtrak's Acela (which I've ridden numerous times) hits only a max of 90mph (over a very very short stretch of track) and they've many problems keeping them on the tracks.

As Wumpus pointed out, that's still superior over the European high speed rail network that only covers half of Western Europe at an average of 150 mph

[wumpus]

7 hours ago, Kerbart said:

As Wumpus pointed out, that's still superior over the European high speed rail network that only covers half of Western Europe at an average of 150 mph

And have four cars.  The point about the US lines is that they have 100+ cars of coal/ore/freight at 25mph (or less).  It is a lot easier and more energy/carbon efficient to put the people from four rail cars into many [automobile] cars (or a 737) than to put the cargo from 100 rail cars onto trucks.

Unfortunately, the political "security theater" involved in putting said passengers onto a 737 is getting ridiculous.  And the forget about having the option of having a "150mph train", the Acela (Amtrak's idea of high speed rail) averages closer to 100kmh and is something like 5 minutes faster the old one.  So while the rail system might be superior, our human movers are getting worse.

[magnemoe]

8 hours ago, PB666 said:

please, its electromagnetic repulsion using superconductors and supercooling. 

I thought it was the air, tube holds some air, not much but enough that you suck it inn on front with the fan and blow it out on bottom to lift, as you only need 1 mm you don't need much air or power. 
You use linear motors for start and stop only. 

[Emperor of the Titan Squid]

22 hours ago, PB666 said:

please, its electromagnetic repulsion using superconductors and supercooling. 

Thanks! that makes more sense, but then isn't it just a maglev?

[Raven Industries]

On 5/13/2016 at 4:23 PM, Shpaget said:

The video of the test ride is unremarkable. All I see is a sled on rails and a linear motor. Those things have been around for decades. They are nothing new.

I see no evacuated tube, or even levitation, two things that are crucial parts of this concept. Without them, this is just a train.

Unless I am mistaken, the video shows a test of the propulsion system.

[Shpaget]

Just now, KerbalSaver said:

Unless I am mistaken, the video shows a test of the propulsion system.

Also the tech that's been around for more than 150 years.

[Raven Industries]

Well regardless of how long the technology has existed, you should probably test whether the version you have made works, which seems to be what they are doing in the video.

[kunok]

5 hours ago, Emperor of the Titan Squid said:

Thanks! that makes more sense, but then isn't it just a maglev?

Is a maglev in a vacuum tube, yes.

[Shpaget]

Wasn't the original design proposed by Musk supposed to ride on a cushion of air?

BTW, it's not hard vacuum, it was something like 1 milibar, IRC.

[magnemoe]

4 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Wasn't the original design proposed by Musk supposed to ride on a cushion of air?

BTW, it's not hard vacuum, it was something like 1 milibar, IRC.

Yes, plan was low pressure and air cushion, this is still the plan, pod has an huge fan in front, guess this also keep the speed up, far better system than maglev who require strong magnets all over the track. 

[wumpus]

On 5/15/2016 at 11:28 AM, Shpaget said:

Also the tech that's been around for more than 150 years.

The 150 year old tech was full of air and used pressure variations to move the packages.  This completely lacks air (a big manufacturing issue) and is powered by magnetism.  A railgun type of magnetic rail might have been possible 100 years ago, but I suspect that hyperloop is using things that were only possible 50 years ago and efficient 20 years ago (quick switching the polarity of magnets use the same magnets for levitation and pushing).

But the tech will never be the problem.  The political issues will be so much larger than the tech to be tragic (consider *any* major construction in the US (and plenty of places elsewhere.  Japan is notorious for civil engineering projects considering how well everything else works)).

[magnemoe]

22 minutes ago, wumpus said:

The 150 year old tech was full of air and used pressure variations to move the packages.  This completely lacks air (a big manufacturing issue) and is powered by magnetism.  A railgun type of magnetic rail might have been possible 100 years ago, but I suspect that hyperloop is using things that were only possible 50 years ago and efficient 20 years ago (quick switching the polarity of magnets use the same magnets for levitation and pushing).

But the tech will never be the problem.  The political issues will be so much larger than the tech to be tragic (consider *any* major construction in the US (and plenty of places elsewhere.  Japan is notorious for civil engineering projects considering how well everything else works)).

Many of the subway ideas 150 years ago used compressed air, electric engines was bleeding edge tech and steam did not work well underground. 
Some benefits today is lighter materials, better computers and more experience with stuff like long large diameter piping. 

Still it has safety issues, an leak will kill everybody in pod, so will fire. How to evacuate is also am major headache, emergency braking too. 

[The Yellow Dart]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

Many of the subway ideas 150 years ago used compressed air, electric engines was bleeding edge tech and steam did not work well underground. 
Some benefits today is lighter materials, better computers and more experience with stuff like long large diameter piping. 

Still it has safety issues, an leak will kill everybody in pod, so will fire. How to evacuate is also am major headache, emergency braking too. 

The safety issues aren't really any different than those of passenger planes, which this will more directly compete with given it will likely have long distance routes and high speed. Leak problems can be solved by emergency systems that will allow pressure back into the tunnels, or sections of tunnel, when a loss of cabin pressure is detected. Fire will be dealt with however planes do it, no reason to reinvent the wheel. I agree about breakdowns and pod retrieval being a problem. Assuming we are dealing with tracks that go hundreds of miles between stops, a pod breaking down halfway is a problem. You can build multiple service stations between stops (expensive), or add a slower backup means of propulsion (heavy/bulky) to get it to the next station without outside help, but there aren't any clear solutions. Emergency stops could actually be the same as the emergency pressure loss system. Once you let air into the tube, the car essentially becomes a hydraulic piston, so you just have to control how fast you let it push the air back out to control deceleration.

[kerbiloid]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-21/hyperloop-one-to-shut-down-after-raising-millions-to-reinvent-transit

Hyperl...oops.

[darthgently]

34 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-21/hyperloop-one-to-shut-down-after-raising-millions-to-reinvent-transit

Hyperl...oops.

HypedLoop

[Codraroll]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:28 PM, kerbiloid said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-21/hyperloop-one-to-shut-down-after-raising-millions-to-reinvent-transit

Hyperl...oops.

To the great surprise of ... let's see ... no raised hands at all.

The one good thing about Hyperloop is that it raised awareness of "gadgetbahns"; those spectacular infrastructure works that promise to revolutionise transport but end up inventing a poorer version of the bus/tram/train/taxi.

In the case of Hyperloop, it was a system with the space requirements of a railway system, but the capacity of a bus ... while having to tolerate an environment comparable to a high-altitude air liner. That makes it heckishly expensive, and unable to capitalize on its speed, which would be its biggest advantage if built as intended. Not to mention the risks of some technical failure or other.

All that came together to make the decisionmakers say "ain't no way we're paying to build that stuff", which would make it quite clear that the company was doomed to end like it did. But I guess the key people got to claim quite hefty consultancy fees to hang on at the company for a while, so it might have worked out just fine for all involved parties. I wonder what happened to that demonstration capsule they built out of an old aircraft, though.

[kerbiloid]

Sic transit gloria mundi.

I remember the hyperloop hyperhype here several years ago...
Now it's "nobody is surprised".

[Arugela]

I'm under the constant assumption that all things made by elon musk are things that are made on earth but are test beds for martian or lunar colonies. It explains, in my mind, the rocket transport, hyperloop, Possibly tesla vehicles, you name it. I assume any money made on earth is merely a way to recoup r&d costs.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Arugela

[SunlitZelkova]

1 hour ago, Arugela said:

I'm under the constant assumption that all things made by elon musk are things that are made on earth but are test beds for martian or lunar colonies. It explains, in my mind, the rocket transport, hyperloop, Possibly tesla vehicles, you name it. I assume any money made on earth is merely a way to recoup r&d costs.

Hyperloop for Mars is such an anti-SpaceX design choice though. Why use this incredibly complex thing when you could just build a normal railroad.

And if you need to get something somewhere fast, just use a suborbital rocket.

[Shpaget]

6 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Hyperloop for Mars is such an anti-SpaceX design choice though. Why use this incredibly complex thing when you could just build a normal railroad.

And if you need to get something somewhere fast, just use a suborbital rocket.

So much this. No only there already is a vacuum on Mars (or near enough for this discussion), so you don't need the tubes, but in order for a train (or any mass transit system) to make sense, you need at least two locations far apart with heavy demand.

I don't see Mars having two colonies any time soon, let alone them being big enough to need a high speed train connection between them.