When does something come into existence?

[Rdivine]

More of a philosophy question here, but it still falls under "geeky" so...

When does something come into existence? When does something start existing? For example, when did you come into existence? You can argue that you came into existence when you were conceived, but the atoms that now make up you already existed before you were created. If we time travel backwards, can we call those atoms that would make up you "you" ?

 

Let's say i have a boat made up completely of old planks, and a separate pile of new planks. I remove a wooden plank from the boat and replace it with a new plank each day. At the end of the year, all the planks of the boat have been replaced. Where is the original boat? Is it the one made of new planks, or the pile of old planks?

 

Let's answer the first question. You came into existence when the universe began, because the atoms were created when the universe began. However, everything else also came into existence at that same point in time. How many "things" were created when the universe began? Or maybe there was an infinite amount of things created already? Perhaps at this point in time, there exist an infinite number of things because the atoms that would make up those things in the future already exist!

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rdivine

[Bill Phil]

It depends on what you mean by "something". If it's a specific thing, like a tool, then it's when it's completed.

But if you mean the things that go into that thing, then it's a different story.

The atoms that you consist of change over the course of your life, many times, in fact. The experiences you have, the personality traits, all change as well. So you need to distinguish between different ages.

[HebaruSan]

This paradox apparently dates to the first century AD or earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[PB666]

45 minutes ago, Rdivine said:

More of a philosophy question here, but it still falls under "geeky" so...

When does something come into existence? When does something start existing? For example, when did you come into existence? You can argue that you came into existence when you were conceived, but the atoms that now make up you already existed before you were created. If we time travel backwards, can we call those atoms that would make up you "you" ?

 

Let's say i have a boat made up completely of old planks, and a separate pile of new planks. I remove a wooden plank from the boat and replace it with a new plank each day. At the end of the year, all the planks of the boat have been replaced. Where is the original boat? Is it the one made of new planks, or the pile of old planks?

 

Let's answer the first question. You came into existence when the universe began, because the atoms were created when the universe began. However, everything else also came into existence at that same point in time. How many "things" were created when the universe began? Or maybe there was an infinite amount of things created already? Perhaps at this point in time, there exist an infinite number of things because the atoms that would make up those things in the future already exist!

A boat is not planks, a boat is a buoyant vessel, it can be made of any number of materials.

An infinite number of things did come into existence with the universe, unfortunately you would not recognize anything. When you talk about infinitely hot, its so hot the temperature is immeasurable, matter is purely in the most energetic forms (meaning there is no rest mass). Homogeneity takes place when things cool down, but then heat back up again because of star formation.

If you start the universe with something called a quantum singularity, it which its existence is govern by the purist form of quantum mechanics, the difficulty is that the universe is in an infinite number of states all at once, but that means little because time as we know it does not exist, the progression of time and identity of space have meaning when space-time begins to realize.

Imagine it a little bit like this here you are, to keep you alive we put you in a U.V. shielded glass bubble and ship you back in time in a magic time machine. About the time we reach deionization state a protective x-ray shield is added, and then we have an antimatter, neutron and anti-neutron deflector. Next you may note that neutrinos are starting to make you sick, we have a special drug for that, then some very exotic particles appear, the strength of all the hv shielding needs to be increased, your bubble itself is expanding and a rich array of exotic matter is filling the bubble, and then you and the bubble cease to exist. The point may seem meaningless but consider that a universe at its very beginning has little meaning to us, it is rich in things that our age is incompatible with. Many exotic materials existed in that period that science has not yet characterized, but its for acedemic meaning only (at least until humans learn how to harness much more energetic sources of energy).

[kerbiloid]

When an observer needs to treat a random cluster of things as an integral entity, he/she/it designates it as "the Entity".

Btw "appear", "disappear", "come into existence" means you are matching two states of something on a time scale.
But the time itself is also a part of the whole system. So, you can't match any two things without reducing the whole system at least for one bit: "before"/"after".
So, nothing "appears"/"disappears", you just compare two regions of the total Unversal unchangeable bitset.
 

Edited February 8, 2016 by kerbiloid

[magnemoe]

7 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

This paradox apparently dates to the first century AD or earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I have an computer like that, it dates back to around 2001, swapped motherboard and cpu 2, one extra cpu change, probably 5 coolers and graphic cards, 3 cases, an bunch of disks. 
Stuff like farms are even weirder as they can move over time
 

[Wonky kergineer]

I know nothing, i'm no expert on anything, but i like to say things so others can correct me and then learn something.
So i'd say that if i stick to your means, i've came to existence... now. And now. And in 1988. And in ancient Egypt. If "you" board the "boat", will it be the same boat? Maybe the answer is that there is no boat, you are just using energy so you can take your energy elsewhere. So maybe there's no "you", what you call "me" is just an arrangement of particle, and will be in constant change whatever you do, so you have no control on what things "are" since things aren't; we just put a name on them so we can categorize the way energy behaves and keep some sanity in our minds.
You see, Eido Yoshikawa -who noveled Miyamoto Musashi's biography- wrote something like "if there was no man to see the magnificence of mountains, there would be no mountains", because is intelligence that needs to classify the "things" in the universe, while the universe just is there, it doesn't need "me", "you", "this", "that", "when". It interacts without judgement, it is everything from our perspective -me, you and all there is, there's been and will be-, but there is no "it" from it's perspective.
Well i don't know if i really make any sense, and my opinion is to change in the future, but there's that.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Wonky kergineer

[cubinator]

Philosophical version: I am the interactions between the neurons in my brain. I am not the brain itself, nor the body which feeds it, nor the atoms from which the body is made. I merely use the body to interact with the universe, and the brain as a framework for my sentience. If you were to recreate my brain exactly as it is now, it would have my memories, my knowledge, my habits, my goals, dreams, everything. You would not be able to tell it apart from me, but it is not me because I can't be in two places at the same time(ignores quantum mechanics for once). If you made those same interactions on paper, or with rocks, it would still be the same as me, but I could look at it and still say "I am me. That version is a different me." As long as my neurons are interacting, I exist. One day, the brain which holds me will stop working, and it will wither away. Then I will no longer exist, and never will exist again. I am the only me which will ever exist, and I only get a little while so I'm going to do something that people will remember me for after I die.

Simple version: The original boat is the pile of planks on the floor, because all you did was discreetly disassemble one boat and assemble another at the same time and place. The new boat is a completely different boat that is just in the same place as the old boat. The in-between parts with the new and old planks is just two different partly-assembled boats connected to each other.

[GluttonyReaper]

I like to assume that the idea of "existence" is just a human construct we use to perceive the world around us, and it's entirely possible (likely?) that actual reality is too complicated for us to really comprehend, at least with our current way of thinking. As such, a boat is a boat as long as we still think of it as a boat, as pointless as that sounds.  It probably comes from the instinct of humans to group things into simpler categories, which itself comes from a need to be both quick and efficient. The concept of "existence" specifically might come from the need for humans to appreciate problem-solving - in tasks such as tool-making, it's nice to be able to decide when something is "done". In terms of people, assuming things work like we think they do, people "exist" when we've decided they exist, when they have all the nice forms and sounds we expect them to have. That doesn't stop the atoms predating them in existence - in the same way the wood in a plank exists before it was a plank. The fun part is that, as humans, we can override and gradually change these interpretations of perceptions, so who knows, really?

Edited February 8, 2016 by GluttonyReaper