Devnote Tuesday: An Overdue Break

[godefroi]

3 minutes ago, Neutrinovore said:

What?  That's how the parts SHOULD deploy.  So you're saying that, if I build a rocket in the VAB that has 4 fins, radially attached, and then I add a control surface to each fin, then when I launch the rocket and then 'pull up' on the stick, the rocket won't pitch positive but will instead just roll around on its axis?  That makes no damn sense...

I don't think "deploy" means "react to control inputs". Control surfaces have a "deploy" option in the right-click menu, which causes them to extend fully in one direction. There's another option that sets which direction they "deploy" (normal or inverted).

[Neutrinovore]

Just now, godefroi said:

I don't think "deploy" means "react to control inputs". Control surfaces have a "deploy" option in the right-click menu, which causes them to extend fully in one direction. There's another option that sets which direction they "deploy" (normal or inverted).

Right, I get that, which is why I don't understand why it matters what it depicts in the editors, or why anything needed to be changed.  If they're not changing anything about how the control surfaces work during flight, then I have no concerns.    It's just, I guess, that I didn't really consider this particular thing something that needed to be 'fixed', that's all.

[godefroi]

Just now, Neutrinovore said:

Right, I get that, which is why I don't understand why it matters what it depicts in the editors, or why anything needed to be changed.  If they're not changing anything about how the control surfaces work during flight, then I have no concerns.    It's just, I guess, that I didn't really consider this particular thing something that needed to be 'fixed', that's all.

I'm not sure, as I have never actually *used* deploy on a control surface, but I assume that currently, on say an airplane (or maybe on a rocket), a control surface on one side will deploy *up* and one on the other side will deploy *down*, when the opposite is more likely what is desired.

[Claw]

How flight controls "fly" has not changed. If you pitch/roll/yaw your vessel, it will pitch/roll/yaw just like it always did.

 

What changed is how they "Deploy," or how the flap function works (if you want to think of it that way). As @godefroi said, the change applies to the right-click "Deploy" option (which causes flight controls to deflect without any input). The problem was that the editor and in-flight were using different reference points, which means that deployment in the editor didn't always match deployment in flight (again, separate from how the flight controls react to pitch/roll/yaw input).

 

And because of that, flight controls can now radially deploy when attached in radial symmetry, and will mirror deploy when attached mirrored.

 

Again, this is completely separate from pitch/roll/yaw inputs, which continue to function as they always did

[MiniMatt]

Concur with the (aptly named) Regex, 5thHorseman and others that using a question mark as syntax for specifying exactitude feels a little off.

A question mark, by definition, implies a degree of uncertainty, and in most shell environments I've come across it's used as a wildcard character.

Appreciate it's a little late in the day but wondering if there exists some search code plugin for Unity that can support word stemming - people are quite used to using search engines these days, and if regex or sql query syntax is considered too esoteric for mass deployment then trying to emulate popular search engine syntax may be an option.

Edit: As suspected by Regex, and clarified by Claw & Arsonide below, this syntax is only used in tagging parts and not something the user searches with.

33 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

The question mark is one of ten different tag prepends, these are not things that the player uses, but things that the person tagging the part uses. It allows that person to declare for instance: "(air" will match any word that starts with air. So "airplane" or "aircraft". It will not match "fairing". ")mini" would match "mini", but not "mining".

The player doesn't use these prepends, all they do is improve accuracy for him. It is meant to be simpler to use than regex, and faster to parse. The important thing is that it is individual, per tag. So in one list of tags I can have tags using three or four different matching algorithms, though for the most part we want to stick with the default one, and only use this for problem words.

Edited March 9, 2016 by MiniMatt

[godefroi]

5 minutes ago, MiniMatt said:

Concur with the (aptly named) Regex, 5thHorseman and others that using a question mark as syntax for specifying exactitude feels a little off.

I also agree. Consider instead a "globbing" approach, where "ion" will match only "ion engine" and not "station", but where "*ion" will match both "ion engine" and "station".

[theonegalen]

2 hours ago, Claw said:

Deployment now follows this, but control for the ControlSurfaces will still auto-flip based on their relationship with the CoM. That's so as the CoM moves forward, Pitch and Yaw inputs still give proper pitch and yaw response.

They will hopefully be a bit more intuitive now.

It does make sense for pitch and yaw, but it completely destroys the ability to use my ailerons for roll control, especially as SAS responds as though the control wasn't reversed, leading to increasing roll and spinning out. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by theonegalen

[Claw]

3 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

ailerons for roll control, especially as SAS responds as though the control wasn't reversed

SAS has zero control over the "Deploy" option, so it isn't possible for SAS to control the ship any differently than it does for you right now. If you roll your craft, the ailerons will still roll the craft.

 

It sounds like maybe some folks aren't familiar with the deploy option. If you're unsure what I'm talking about, please load up the Aeris 3a in the SPH, then right-click on one of the elevons at the back of the plane and select "Deploy." It's essentially a stock way to make/use Flaps. Adding the ability to radially deploy makes it possible for more crazy things like auto gyros and helicopters, all without changing how airplanes currently work and fly.

[theonegalen]

28 minutes ago, Claw said:

SAS has zero control over the "Deploy" option, so it isn't possible for SAS to control the ship any differently than it does for you right now. If you roll your craft, the ailerons will still roll the craft.

[Raptor9]

Are there any post-1.1 plans to modify how "unconventional" aero designs perform like forward-swept wings or leading edge control surfaces?  I know at the moment control surfaces and canards can't recognize when they're mounted backwards, so an option would need to be added to invert their axis response.

This particular design may look nice, but the leading edge wing surfaces only deploy for airbraking.  All roll control authority is provided by the canards, tail elevons, and differential thrust vectoring.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Raptor9

[federicoaa]

37 minutes ago, MiniMatt said:

Concur with the (aptly named) Regex, 5thHorseman and others that using a question mark as syntax for specifying exactitude feels a little off.

A question mark, by definition, implies a degree of uncertainty, and in most shell environments I've come across it's used as a wildcard character.

Appreciate it's a little late in the day but wondering if there exists some search code plugin for Unity that can support word stemming - people are quite used to using search engines these days, and if regex or sql query syntax is considered too esoteric for mass deployment then trying to emulate popular search engine syntax may be an option.

 

Agree. Intuitively, I would expect that search ?ion would return station and ion.

I recommend using the google search "" (quotation marks?) for exact search.

Edited March 9, 2016 by federicoaa

[theonegalen]

14 minutes ago, Claw said:

SAS has zero control over the "Deploy" option, so it isn't possible for SAS to control the ship any differently than it does for you right now. If you roll your craft, the ailerons will still roll the craft.

Sorry about the double-post, Claw - something got borked in the reply box - and thank you for the responses in here. I'm not referring to the Deploy option. I just have had several problems with roll control reversal happening during flight quite a few times in the last few weeks. It's happening as I'm doing more aircraft with wings and ailerons close to the center of mass instead of delta wings at the back, so as the center of mass moves while I burn fuel, the control surfaces reverse, even though they are set to only affect roll. SAS thinks they are set the same as they were when the craft launched, so it tries to correct, which is translated by the reversed ailerons to making the roll worse. Can anything be done about that?

[HebaruSan]

26 minutes ago, Claw said:

It sounds like maybe some folks aren't familiar with the deploy option. If you're unsure what I'm talking about, please load up the Aeris 3a in the SPH, then right-click on one of the elevons at the back of the plane and select "Deploy." It's essentially a stock way to make/use Flaps. Adding the ability to radially deploy makes it possible for more crazy things like auto gyros and helicopters, all without changing how airplanes currently work and fly.

I tried it once on the runway and categorized it under "never click that". What is the intended use case? Cheap air brakes?

[regex]

8 minutes ago, federicoaa said:

Agree. Intuitively, I would expect that search ?ion would return station and ion.

I recommend using the google search "" (quotation marks?) for exact search.

Well, here's the thing, you won't be using those symbols in the search box, the symbol is for defining search tags with the part configs.  It still isn't ... standard but the player likely won't ever have to use it.

At least, that's how I understand it and why I didn't bring it up in my first post here (Laie actually asked me about that on IRC...)

[Temeter]

1 hour ago, Neutrinovore said:

What?  That's how the parts SHOULD deploy.  So you're saying that, if I build a rocket in the VAB that has 4 fins, radially attached, and then I add a control surface to each fin, then when I launch the rocket and then 'pull up' on the stick, the rocket won't pitch positive but will instead just roll around on its axis?  That makes no damn sense...

I think they are talking about the function as spoiler or flaps, not control inputs. And those two were rather counter intuitive.

[Superfluous J]

14 minutes ago, regex said:

Well, here's the thing, you won't be using those symbols in the search box, the symbol is for defining search tags with the part configs.  It still isn't ... standard but the player likely won't ever have to use it.

At least, that's how I understand it and why I didn't bring it up in my first post here (Laie actually asked me about that on IRC...)

Hm. I understood it differently. I can't see a way to define "ion" in the configs for your part in such a way that it would affect whether or not the player searching for "ion" would find a totally different part that was a "station"

[Claw]

38 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Are there any post-1.1 plans to modify how "unconventional" aero designs perform like forward-swept wings or leading edge control surfaces?

There's a variety of options, yes.

 

31 minutes ago, theonegalen said:

so as the center of mass moves while I burn fuel, the control surfaces reverse, even though they are set to only affect roll.

I am aware of the CoM issue flipping the flight controls on swept wings, but I was unaware of it affecting roll. If you have an example craft, that would help.

 

29 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

What is the intended use case? Cheap air brakes?

Yes, and more notably, flaps. But there's a lot of things than can be done with them. One thing in particular I'm still waiting for someone to discover (or at least attempt).

 

22 minutes ago, regex said:

Well, here's the thing, you won't be using those symbols in the search box, the symbol is for defining search tags with the part configs.

Yes, this. It's in the part's search tags and will not be visible to the users.

 

The user isn't searching for ?ion. The part is specifying that it only wants to be found if "ion" is the search term.

[Arsonide]

4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Why not use regex for the part search filters? It adds a lot more flexibility and hardly requires any extra effort to implement?

The question mark is one of ten different tag specifiers, these are not things that the player uses, but things that the person tagging the part uses. It allows that person to declare for instance: "(air" will match any word that starts with air. So "airplane" or "aircraft". It will not match "fairing". ")mini" would match "mini", but not "mining".

The player doesn't use these specifiers, all they do is improve accuracy for him. It is meant to be simpler to use than regex, and faster to parse. The important thing is that it is individual, per tag. So in one list of tags I can have tags using three or four different matching algorithms, though for the most part we want to stick with the default one, and only use this for problem words.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Arsonide

[HebaruSan]

4 minutes ago, Claw said:

Yes, and more notably, flaps.

What does "flaps" mean in this context? I tend to think of that term as interchangeable with "control surfaces", but now it sounds like that's wrong.

[Claw]

7 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

What does "flaps" mean in this context?

Well, "flaps" might be slightly confusing in KSP because the Control Surfaces in the game can also act as flaps. Pretty much any control surface in KSP can be used as an aileron, rudder, elevator, or any number of real-world equivalent control surfaces.

 

The short story for a flap is that it's a surface that deflects to change the amount of lift a wing generates, at the cost of increasing drag. KSP allows you to make flap-like devices with the "Deploy" option.

Spoiler

 

If you want more info, you can check out the wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flap_(aeronautics)

[HvP]

To expand on what Claw said, flaps are specifically used to slow the craft without causing a stall and allow it to keep generating lift at a more horizontal angle of attack. They are mounted on the wings.

They are not to be confused with elevators which are horizontal surfaces that control the pitch from the tail, or ailerons which control roll from the wingtips.

Edited March 9, 2016 by HvP

[Dman979]

23 minutes ago, Claw said:

Yes, and more notably, flaps. But there's a lot of things than can be done with them. One thing in particular I'm still waiting for someone to discover (or at least attempt).

Do you mean slats? Because they are useless for that. They don't increase lift when deployed down, they add downforce, which is not what you'd want.

[Raptor9]

31 minutes ago, Claw said:

Yes, and more notably, flaps. But there's a lot of things than can be done with them. One thing in particular I'm still waiting for someone to discover (or at least attempt).

Weapon bay doors for dropping small probes/rovers/rockets/missiles? Garage doors? Landing gear? Deployable rover ramps??!!

The suspense!

EDIT: I would say thrust vectoring, but I assume they'd overheat and explode in seconds.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Raptor9

[federicoaa]

Ok, I got it wrong. Thanks for clarification.

[theonegalen]

45 minutes ago, Claw said:

I am aware of the CoM issue flipping the flight controls on swept wings, but I was unaware of it affecting roll. If you have an example craft, that would help.

Running some tests now, but it appears that it might be an issue with a mod rather than the stock game.