[Suggestion] Naturalize Docking Alignment Indicator mod

[Robotoaster]

Looks like NavyFish got tired with updating the mod. As we all love his invention wouldn't be awesome if it became a part of the stock UI?

 

[Snark]

I assume you're talking about this mod:

Personally, I would be strongly against making this mod (or anything like it) part of stock-- mainly because it adds cluttery UI to the display, and I'm violently allergic to UI clutter.  One of the things I love about KSP is how clean its UI is, and how it manages to convey lots of information with minimal screen real estate.

Agreed that the current alleged "docking UI" is pretty useless (I've never used it once, ever, for anything, beyond an initial attempt that lasted exactly as long as it took me to realize how useless it was).  Also, agreed that the stock game could really use some help with docking.

However, IMHO the above mod is a cure worse than the disease.  It's great as a mod, for the people who like it and don't mind the extra UI on the screen, but it shouldn't be stock.  I would rather have no docking help at all than install this mod.  (I hasten to add that no criticism of the mod or its author is intended-- I'm sure it's great, it's certainly very popular.  It's just that I personally can't stand UI and consider the less of it there is, the better.)

My own strongly-preferred docking solution is this one:

...now there is a docking mod that is stock-worthy, as far as I'm concerned.  I love it because it's useful and minimalistic at the same time.  Doesn't add any UI at all.  Automatically appears when needed, stays out of the way otherwise.  All it does is this:  when your target is a docking port, it adds one additional icon to the navball, showing the appropriate orientation.  When the icon is centered in the crosshairs, your orientation is precisely aligned with what it needs to be in order to dock.

[Armisael]

Fun fact: when you lead a post with wide-sweeping assertions about what literally everyone thinks most of your responses are going to be from people who disagree with you telling you to go pound sand up your nose. In this thread, for example, your first two responses are from people who're totally uninterested in that mod becoming part of stock.

@Snark That is a beautiful way to make docking work better. How have I not heard of that before?

[Racescort666]

@Snark personally, I love the docking port alignment indicator but I generally agree with the minimalist approach to "what should be stock?" I'm going to have to try the mod you suggested and see if I like it more than docking port alignment indicator and see if I like it better. Sometimes I need more information, sometimes I need less, so I'm happy to open and close windows as I need them since certain information can never be useful all the time. 

That being said, the current docking UI is absolutely worthless. 0/10 would not buy again.

 

[John JACK]

Exactly one thing that stock docking lacks is some kind of relative roll angle display. Otherwise, navball Mk1.0.5 with Eyeball Mk1 work just fine.

And stock "mocking UI" serves just one single function: it swaps rotation and translation controls on keyboard. Yay.

[Snark]

2 hours ago, Armisael said:

@Snark That is a beautiful way to make docking work better. How have I not heard of that before?

Yeah, it's pretty neat.  It's even neater if you go look at the source code-- there's practically nothing there, it's like a page or two of code and that's it.  It's practically Zen.

This was the first mod I ever installed, and I've never regretted it.  It's still my favorite mod that I've ever seen.  It's such a perfectly elegant, simple solution to an important problem; it has inspired me to aim for the same ideal in my own mods

2 hours ago, Racescort666 said:

I'm going to have to try the mod you suggested and see if I like it more than docking port alignment indicator and see if I like it better. Sometimes I need more information, sometimes I need less, so I'm happy to open and close windows as I need them since certain information can never be useful all the time.

Fair 'nuff.    One of the things I like about this mod is that it precisely, perfectly gives me exactly the information I want, and nothing else.  The "target bearing" and "target relative velocity retrograde" markers already give me two of the three necessary pieces of information for docking:  "where am I" and "which way am I going".  The missing piece is "which way am I pointed", which is what it gives.

55 minutes ago, John JACK said:

Exactly one thing that stock docking lacks is some kind of relative roll angle display. Otherwise, navball Mk1.0.5 with Eyeball Mk1 work just fine.

Yeah, I played KSP quite a bit before I took the plunge and installed my first mod.  I must have docked a few hundred times with the ol' Mk1 eyeball.  It's certainly doable... but it gets really tedious, and seeing whether I'm lined up requires playing games with the camera and panning it all around, which just felt silly to me after a while.  This mod added the one bit that just seemed right to me.

I'm a very anti-automation sort of player (have never used MechJeb or KER, and never will), I prefer to do everything manually myself... but docking-alignment always felt like a missing feature to me, and this mod fills that hole nicely.

[tg626]

Kick it old school and install hullcamvds and my mod, no ui changes at all!

/shameless_plug

[Robotoaster]

10 hours ago, tg626 said:

Kick it old school and install hullcamvds and my mod, no ui changes at all!

/shameless_plug

KURS style ? 

 

[Robotoaster]

@Snark I agree NavBall looks cooler and it doesn't clutter UI and it is a direction to go, 

but it doesn't give you precision of tenth of a degree which is essential when building bigger structures

and dev effort to create revamped docking UI is higher then using the mod

Personally I think Squad will take a step back to get a bigger picture on the navigation UI as a whole. Kinda same way they solved procedural fairings, not just by coping the mod but building a fresh idea on top of it.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Where's the poll option for "No because the actual docking portion is easy as pie."

I mean orbital rendezvous and all that jazz is the hard part, once you've matched velocity and are floating calmly in sight of the target, the actual act of making the two ports touch should be trivial.

I'm not trying to be rude or brag, I just never realized anyone actually had trouble with that bit. I always assumed when people complained about docking it was in reference to all the complicated rocket science that leads up to two ships sharing the same orbit only a few meters from each other. After that isn't it just a simple case of "eyeballing it?" Are you guys doing it in IVA view or only using the Navball just for the immersion? With a 3rd person camera it's pretty easy to "line up" and then it's just a matter of drifting in slowly and making contact. I guess it goes without saying, but I'm obviously against the mod being turned stock as I don't see a use for it.

[tg626]

5 hours ago, Robotoaster said:

KURS style ? 

 

 

I JUST discovered this earlier today, and it's pretty damn cool.

But, no, I meant REALLY old scool...

 

 

My mod provides the "DOCKING TARGET" and "COAS GENERATED RETICLE IMAGE", HullcamVDS provides the viewpoint (Astronaut's eye, so to speak) with a screen spanning cross.  This is REAL eyeballing!

[Robotoaster]

4 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Where's the poll option for "No because the actual docking portion is easy as pie."

Ok so how you make sure that 5 sections of your space stations are perfectly aligned? Afaik only CxAerospace Stations Parts mod has a berthing ports which won't dock until aligned.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Robotoaster

[Rocket In My Pocket]

9 minutes ago, Robotoaster said:

Ok so how you make sure that 5 sections of your space stations are perfectly aligned? Afaik only CxAerospace Stations Parts mod has a berthing ports which won't dock until aligned.

And how orbital rendezvous is hard? Please explain.

Hmm, in Mk1 Command Pod, then you upgrade to KURS  

Must be a language barrier going on, cause I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

Orbital rendezvous isn't hard, but it is harder than the actual literal docking.

I can't see anyone having trouble with docking unless you are forcing yourself to do it in IVA via the Navball for immersion.

[Robotoaster]

2 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Must be a language barrier going on, cause I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

Orbital rendezvous isn't hard, but it is harder than the actual literal docking.

I can't see anyone having trouble with docking unless you are forcing yourself to do it in IVA via the Navball for immersion.

How do you make sure your roll angle is 0.0?

[Rocket In My Pocket]

4 minutes ago, Robotoaster said:

How do you make sure your roll angle is 0.0?

I just line up two items on the ship and go slow? I'm sure it doesn't end up at 0.0, but it's good enough.

I've been playing KSP a long time and I've never seen a practical need to be that precise, not to mention that the automatic magnetism is going to end up throwing it off a bit anyways.

What exactly are you building where you need the rotational axis to be that precise in relation each other? I've made plenty of ships that use "multiple docking port's on one facing" style setup's and even then you don't have to be perfect.

[StrandedonEarth]

20 hours ago, Snark said:

My own strongly-preferred docking solution is this one:

 

I agree that that is a great little mod. The one thing I found lacking is that it's hard to tell if you're correcting in the proper direction when the closing velocity is near nil

As for docking with no aid at all, I can, but I'd rather not. The way I learned to do that is by constantly switching ships to keep targeting the other docking port, which gets tougher with a big station.

[fatcargo]

Argh i just voted without looking at the title more closely.

Yes, i disagree with mod in title, and as stated before the navball version is true cluterless, straightforward way to show port alignement.

As for docking manuevers, i've never had to place docking ports out of craft's main engines / body axis, so using chase cam helped me alot with general alignement in approach (yea i'm one of those "outside view dockers" )

Edited April 10, 2016 by fatcargo

[Robotoaster]

On 10/04/2016 at 6:53 PM, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I just line up two items on the ship and go slow? I'm sure it doesn't end up at 0.0, but it's good enough.

I've been playing KSP a long time and I've never seen a practical need to be that precise, not to mention that the automatic magnetism is going to end up throwing it off a bit anyways.

What exactly are you building where you need the rotational axis to be that precise in relation each other? I've made plenty of ships that use "multiple docking port's on one facing" style setup's and even then you don't have to be perfect.

Ok so you don't know the way to dock precisely. Imagine you want to build ISS. It will going to look kinda funny with all modules slightly off.

[regex]

Personally don't see a need for it since the navball already provides alignment functionality.

[Robotoaster]

1 minute ago, regex said:

Personally don't see a need for it since the navball already provides alignment functionality.

And how do you read roll from stock nav ball?

[regex]

1 minute ago, Robotoaster said:

And how do you read roll from stock nav ball?

There's this neat little "V" thing with wings that line up along the hashmarks on the navball, you just orient both spacecraft the same way (well, one reversed relative to the other's).  Simple.

Edited April 11, 2016 by regex

[Robotoaster]

3 minutes ago, regex said:

There's this neat little "V" thing with wings that line up along the hashmarks on the navball, you just orient both spacecraft the same way.  Simple.

And when precise reorientation is too difficult you eye ball it. That's why I prefer proper tools for the job.

[tater]

I'm with regex on this (your name constantly tries to autocorrect, mon. . )

I dock in the dark looking at nothing but the navball (in normal mode, I never use docking mode). I'd prefer docking ports that would snap into alignment if you were within a few degrees rotation, but I get it pretty close by aligning the V on the navball on the target with a preferred direction, then doing the same with the docking craft.

[regex]

Just now, Robotoaster said:

And when precise reorientation is too difficult you eye ball it. That's why I prefer proper tools for the job.

Sorry, what?  The navball is already fairly precise, just fine for orbital construction.  If you align both spacecraft along the same plane, one facing prograde and the other retrograde relative to their docking ports, they will be aligned precisely.  If your ships can't align properly then they are shoddily built; add a reaction wheel or two, or some RCS, or timewarp for a second to kill movement.

[monstah]

There's a stock docking UI??

Anyway, I like this mod only for RPM uses, in the usual camera mode I agree with regex and Snark and think it's interface clutter. The Navball one, tho, that one I think is beautiful.