What would space crafts designed by aliens living in an aquatic world be like?

[RainDreamer]

Given the enormous mass requirement then, can they instead minimize the amount of water they need to carry to space by using spacesuits filled with water (and exchange the water inside periodically) instead of filling their whole hab space with water? Although that would mean their habspace isn't really habspace. Probably they would have smaller pods of water connected to life support system for resting more comfortably.

[kerbiloid]

On a Carbon planet  orbiting around a white dwarf the ocean creatures maybe have the best chances to rise a civilization.
In a methanol ocean, under carbon oxides atmosphere, near a hydrocarbons covering the rocky crust,
As the only way avalable for them is chemistry, then with such background they would easily create enormous amount of chemical composites, solvents, glues and other.
So, atmospheric balloons, large organic structures, maybe even some rails to sky,
But yet not space flights, only high atmospherical.

Looks that the main way for oceanic creatures to can into space: to await a large asteroid which hits the basin.

2 minutes ago, RainDreamer said:

and exchange the water inside periodically)

They don't need water exhange.  They need solved oxygen exchange.

[RainDreamer]

6 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

They don't need water exhange.  They need solved oxygen exchange.

Well, eventually they would need to clean up the dead skin/other kind of waste from their biological processes from their body, so that water probably will need to be exchanged to ensure it is clean. Especially if it is inside a small spacesuit.

Edited April 12, 2016 by RainDreamer

[kerbiloid]

Well, let's take any human spaceship and just fill it with water.
Let it circulate enough fast, so all wastes are filtered out and the oxygen is regenerated while a small part of this water is outside the cabin, while the most part fills the cabin.
As the inner space of a pressurized cabin is ~ 5 m³, this means they would launch, say 8 t of water and additional pumps.
This would require Saturn to launch Gemini, while they poorly can build at least V-2.
 

[todofwar]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

It's enough hard to develop metallurgy when the molten iron contacts with water which cools it down.
An iron metallurgy is unavailable for them because they just couldn't build a smelter with dry coke and oxygen-rich air, People did that only in XVIII centurt.

Copper, lead - maybe.

Also there is water. Axes, hammers and arrows are useless due to the drag force. The only purpose of metal instruments: pins and pikes. But they have enough bones and poisons foir it.
 

You can electrochemically produce metals. They would take a while to develop the tech, their iron age would happen after any kind of industrial revolution, but there would be ways to get the necessary materials. And even then they would be extremely expensive.

[RainDreamer]

2 minutes ago, todofwar said:

You can electrochemically produce metals. They would take a while to develop the tech, their iron age would happen after any kind of industrial revolution, but there would be ways to get the necessary materials. And even then they would be extremely expensive.

How would they develop industrial tech without metal then?

Steam from volcanic vents and...coral/rock/bone piston of some kind for steam engine?

 

But the question of how an aquatic race develop technology prob deserve its own thread.

[sevenperforce]

A few thoughts....

Keep them small. Large sea creatures are really not going to make it into space. I'm thinking small octopus size. 

Give them the ability to create their own structures. Numerous soft-bodied crustaceans and invertebrates already produce their own shells, so it stands to reason that sentient versions of these creatures could evolve the ability to control this process and "grow" objects.

We need air to breathe; aquatic creatures don't necessarily need water to breathe. Some can get away with a moist environment and respirate through their skin. 

[Tw1]

11 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

A few thoughts....

Keep them small. Large sea creatures are really not going to make it into space. I'm thinking small octopus size. 

 

An octopus like creature sounds like the best candidate yet. 

I imagine the internal layout of any large space vessel wouldn't be hugely different from our own stations, though an aquatic creature may have an advantage in moving about in a 3d space. An astronaut in the middle of an air filled void is stuck, in one filled with water, the creature has more ability to paddle about. Straps and grips are less important for navigating. 

An octopus could also have and advantage in being able to reach many things at once, giving a very different layout for any control panels, and set ups for equipment and experiments. 

I like where this thread is going. I've imaged architecture for mermaids, elephants, ( a control interface for a trunk would be interesting) But this is yielding some interesting ideas. 

[Snark]

Here's another thing to consider, which I haven't seen anybody mention yet:  Aside from the technical difficulties of developing technology underwater (no fire; chemistry really hard to do)... how would sea life even know that space exists in the first place?

Ocean-dwelling creatures tend to not have much in the way of eyesight-- certainly not long-distance vision, and definitely not vision in air.  If they're deep-sea, there's a good chance they may be completely blind, and unaware of the existence of such a thing as "light".  Even if they do have vision... there's no reason to evolve sharp long-distance vision if you're living in a medium where visibility is typically limited to a few hundred yards at best.  And even if they did somehow evolve sharp long-distance underwater vision... take them into the air, and everything's gonna get blurry.

You could posit that they develop telescopes and optics and use those... but why would they?  What would be the impetus?  Humans were using spyglasses for long-distance vision for a good while before someone took the next logical step and pointed them up.  If you live in an environment where it's impossible to see very far just because water gets in the way, I would imagine there would be a lot less motivation to go tinkering with optics.

And without good, sharp long-distance vision in air, they're not going to see the stars.  If they can come up to the surface, they'd be able to see this big bright fuzzy thing that goes overhead and lights everything up once a day.  Maybe they'd see a moon, if they have one, and if they have vision, but it wouldn't have any distinguishable features.

So how would astronomy and such develop in the first place?  (Especially when you can't make glass because you don't have fire.)

[Spaceception]

3 hours ago, Snark said:

Here's another thing to consider, which I haven't seen anybody mention yet:  Aside from the technical difficulties of developing technology underwater (no fire; chemistry really hard to do)... how would sea life even know that space exists in the first place?

Ocean-dwelling creatures tend to not have much in the way of eyesight-- certainly not long-distance vision, and definitely not vision in air.  If they're deep-sea, there's a good chance they may be completely blind, and unaware of the existence of such a thing as "light".  Even if they do have vision... there's no reason to evolve sharp long-distance vision if you're living in a medium where visibility is typically limited to a few hundred yards at best.  And even if they did somehow evolve sharp long-distance underwater vision... take them into the air, and everything's gonna get blurry.

You could posit that they develop telescopes and optics and use those... but why would they?  What would be the impetus?  Humans were using spyglasses for long-distance vision for a good while before someone took the next logical step and pointed them up.  If you live in an environment where it's impossible to see very far just because water gets in the way, I would imagine there would be a lot less motivation to go tinkering with optics.

And without good, sharp long-distance vision in air, they're not going to see the stars.  If they can come up to the surface, they'd be able to see this big bright fuzzy thing that goes overhead and lights everything up once a day.  Maybe they'd see a moon, if they have one, and if they have vision, but it wouldn't have any distinguishable features.

So how would astronomy and such develop in the first place?  (Especially when you can't make glass because you don't have fire.)

There could be amphibious creatures that can stay above the surface for a few minutes or hours (Like dolphins, except they can operate as normal) that look up, and wonder what's out there, although, it could take much longer, but it could happen.

And when they get curious enough, they could then develop telescopes.

Idk, but looking at the size of the universe, there has to be at least one underwater civilization that does that.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Spaceception

[Snark]

1 minute ago, Spaceception said:

There could be amphibious creatures that can stay above the surface for a few minutes or hours

Well, sure, if they can come up on the land, they're essentially on an even footing with humans and this entire thread becomes moot.

But the OP was positing an aquatic species, yes?

[Rakaydos]

Species: Xeno-octupi

Planet: low tectonic activity, no/weak magnetic field. Shallow oceans, archipelicos

Ecology: Shallow water bottomfeeder

Tech basis: Farmed coral, organic resin sealent. Electric eel electrolisis.

[monstah]

54 minutes ago, Snark said:

Here's another thing to consider, which I haven't seen anybody mention yet:  Aside from the technical difficulties of developing technology underwater (no fire; chemistry really hard to do)... how would sea life even know that space exists in the first place?

<snip good stuff>

 

I like where this thread is going! Sentient mollusks growing modelled shells? Awesome.

As for this Snark's remark, I say they'll probably develop radioastronomy first. Eyesight or not, they're bound to develop some long-range high-speed communication technology, and that's probably going to involve radio or electromagnetism at some point. And then (with luck) they notice the interference from above.

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Tech basis: Farmed coral, organic resin sealent. Electric eel electrolisis.

Then, there's this. They don't need to shape their own growth, but can rather cultivate it from their environment (think japanese square melons, or buddha-shaped pearls).

[todofwar]

52 minutes ago, Snark said:

Here's another thing to consider, which I haven't seen anybody mention yet:  Aside from the technical difficulties of developing technology underwater (no fire; chemistry really hard to do)... how would sea life even know that space exists in the first place?

Ocean-dwelling creatures tend to not have much in the way of eyesight-- certainly not long-distance vision, and definitely not vision in air.  If they're deep-sea, there's a good chance they may be completely blind, and unaware of the existence of such a thing as "light".  Even if they do have vision... there's no reason to evolve sharp long-distance vision if you're living in a medium where visibility is typically limited to a few hundred yards at best.  And even if they did somehow evolve sharp long-distance underwater vision... take them into the air, and everything's gonna get blurry.

You could posit that they develop telescopes and optics and use those... but why would they?  What would be the impetus?  Humans were using spyglasses for long-distance vision for a good while before someone took the next logical step and pointed them up.  If you live in an environment where it's impossible to see very far just because water gets in the way, I would imagine there would be a lot less motivation to go tinkering with optics.

And without good, sharp long-distance vision in air, they're not going to see the stars.  If they can come up to the surface, they'd be able to see this big bright fuzzy thing that goes overhead and lights everything up once a day.  Maybe they'd see a moon, if they have one, and if they have vision, but it wouldn't have any distinguishable features.

So how would astronomy and such develop in the first place?  (Especially when you can't make glass because you don't have fire.)

I think too many people are getting hung up on fire. There is an ability for solution processing. But let's assume (quite reasonably) that solution processing is too difficult or inefficient. Just because there's no land doesn't mean they can't build floating labs. Maybe they start to explore the air above the surface like we explore the ocean. Someone accidentally lights a surface lab on fire, and bam they start an industrial revolution of floating factories. 

And many ocean dwellers can see wavelengths we can't, so assuming they use some kind of helmet while working on their surface facilities they will probably be able to see about as well as we can underwater with goggles. They will be completely awestruck by the light show overhead, with colors we can't see. Trying to get to space will be a logical next step. 

[Snark]

4 minutes ago, monstah said:

As for this Snark's remark, I say they'll probably develop radioastronomy first. Eyesight or not, they're bound to develop some long-range high-speed communication technology

Develop radioastronomy, with what electrical supply?  and what conductor?  and what glass-and-vacuum?

Never mind that you can't use radios underwater effectively.  You can use sonar very effectively.

But "they need high-speed communication" kind of begs the question-- you "need" that only if you have a substantial tech base to start with, and I've yet to see a persuasive case for their getting out of the Stone Age at best.

3 minutes ago, todofwar said:

I think too many people are getting hung up on fire. There is an ability for solution processing.

It's certainly possible to make metal without fire.  What I have trouble seeing is how you get from A to B. The mechanisms we know of for making metals without fire generally assume a high level of technology to start with.  If all you have is some brainy squid things who don't have anything to work with except sea critters, kelp, and rocks, I have difficulty seeing how they'd get anywhere, technologically speaking.

John Brunner wrote an enjoyable book, The Crucible of Time, about a (non-aquatic) alien species whose entire technological development from the Stone Age to the Space Age is done with biotech.   It's a fun read.  But I gotta say, I always had a bit of trouble swallowing it-- had to suspend the heck out of my disbelief while reading.

 

7 minutes ago, todofwar said:

Just because there's no land doesn't mean they can't build floating labs.

Out of what?  And with what purpose?  People weren't building "labs" until they already had a lot of practical technology and knew enough about how the world works to want to know more.  It took a renaissance.

10 minutes ago, todofwar said:

Someone accidentally lights a surface lab on fire

with what?

10 minutes ago, todofwar said:

And many ocean dwellers can see wavelengths we can't

Citation?  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's news to me and I'd like to know more. 

In any case, even if you posit that they can see colors we can't... it's not as if the sky is going to blow them away with its colors.  Their eyes are only going to be able to see colors that normally exist in their environment, and they'll be surrounded by such colors all the time.  There's no reason the sight of the sky should be especially unusual, especially since they'd need good optics to see anything new in it anyway, and again, where did this science of optics come from?  If they have a reason to colonize the land, sure... but where does that come from, and where do they get the technology to do it in the first place?

14 minutes ago, todofwar said:

I think too many people are getting hung up on fire.

Well, yeah, but it's not really fire per se-- what I'm getting hung up on is bootstrapping.  Take an intelligent species and give it a good set of tools and knowledge to work with, and they can do just about anything no matter what their physiognomy or natural environment.  It's getting to that set of technology in the first place that I'm hung up on:  how do they get past the Stone Age, both in terms of capability and motivation?

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Snark said:

There could be amphibious creatures that can stay above the surface for a few minutes or hours

Yes, we are.

 

About electrolysis and electrochemistry.
Do not mix two different cases: whether somebody can construct underwater technological species, and whether can it appear evolutionarily.

Edited April 12, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Tw1]

Of course, we could bypass the topic entirely by saying they were genetically engineered and abandoned by the progenitor race, live in shallow seas, on a planet with several very shiny moons.... And have access to heat from volcanism, or may tech was left to them.... 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Tw1

[RainDreamer]

Can they use air bubbles trapped in clear gel/mucus to focus light and make a sort of telescope? Maybe within a grown/constructed coral structure reaching to the surface.

[kerbiloid]

Such picture would be extremely blurry.

Btw: if humans could do so, whether would they bother with precise glasses and mechanical system of the telescopes?

Edited April 12, 2016 by kerbiloid

[todofwar]

Ok, let's start from the begining. Let's assume we have a squid like creature with highly social behavior that begins using shells and rocks as tools. It gets ever more sophisticated tools, and languishes in the "shell age" for thousands of years. Than it manages to achieve underwater agriculture, and starts booming in population. It notices the light in the sky is important, and tied to some kind of seasonal pattern. Eventually above water observatories are built to better understand seasons. These dry out except for inhabited places, and one day an unfortunate lightning strike lights one ablaze. Now they start to look into this whole fire thing and get the industrial revolution going.

[kerbiloid]

12 minutes ago, todofwar said:

Than it manages to achieve underwater agriculture

People achieve agriculture because they live under the Sun, not under the water.
Underwater plants do not give two-three harvests per year, while the plankton doesn't need metal instruments to be cultivated.
Axe or hammer also don't give him any gain because the drag force of the water will slow it down. Underwater you can ony bit with a pike.
So, as humans used stones all their hundreds-of-thousand-years history except last 8000 years, the squid also will be happy enough with the shells.

Light in the sky is not too important for the squid because of low productivity of the bottom-grown pplants. Squid will be either carnivorous (so, no clear purpose for light), or omnivorous (eating also a plankton).

Also: humans return to water to gather more food, and what can find a squid in the air?

Edited April 12, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Rakaydos]

10 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

People achieve agriculture because they live under the Sun, not under the water.
Underwater plants do not give two-three harvests per year, while the plankton doesn't need metal instruments to be cultivated.
Axe or hammer also don't give him any gain because the drag force of the water will slow it down. Underwater you can ony bit with a pike.
So, as humans used stones all their hundreds-of-thousand-years history except last 8000 years, the squid also will be happy enough with the shells.

Light in the sky is not too important for the squid because of low productivity of the bottom-grown pplants. Squid will be either carnivorous (so, no clear purpose for light), or omnivorous (eating also a plankton).

Also: humans return to water to gather more food, and what can find a squid in the air?

Which is why i positied Amimal Husbandry as the squid's key technoligy.  Cultivated coral, resin and wood as building materials instead of metal, electric eel eletrolisis for hydrogen fuel instead of gasoline.

[HebaruSan]

I imagine their craft will be like most of ours: unmanned.   They'd have as little reason to visit space in person as we do, and it'd be even more immensely difficult as noted above. Using probes would cut out the need to lift one of the pools from Sea World.

Fleet of Worlds has a race of

Spoiler

satellite-launching starfish-like creatures on a Europa-like world. According to their own records, they made metal by tunneling through the surface ice to vacuum, then building little pressurized smelting huts. The book's solution to Snark's bootstrapping problem is to make them super hyper intelligent; they are able to form unlimited, scalable hive minds as needed, so they basically invented the industrial revolution all the way to comm sats in their minds ahead of time with no need for haphazard experimentation. I called bull excrements on that and hope/expect there'll be a plot twist involving them later in the series (and I have a guess as to what it would be).

 

[kerbiloid]

4 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Cultivated coral, resin and wood as building materials instead of metal, electric eel eletrolisis for hydrogen fuel instead of gasoline.

And they will live in coral houses, but they can't eat coral.

Hydrogen also requires oxygen to be used instead of gasoline. Also it needs a steel chamber to be burnt/exploded inside.

4 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

their craft will be like most of ours: unmanned

unsquidded

Edited April 12, 2016 by kerbiloid

[monstah]

1 hour ago, Snark said:

Develop radioastronomy, with what electrical supply?  and what conductor?  and what glass-and-vacuum?

Never mind that you can't use radios underwater effectively.  You can use sonar very effectively.

But "they need high-speed communication" kind of begs the question-- you "need" that only if you have a substantial tech base to start with, and I've yet to see a persuasive case for their getting out of the Stone Age at best.

On that last paragraph, I think the discussion in this topic is not wether they get to that technological point, but assuming they already did develop some technology, how would they go about its space stage, right? The other two points are valid.

But then, we're talking of "aquatic" worlds, meaning liquid. We're thinking of water because it's common to us, but it could very well be ammonia, or I don't know what. Some other liquid that doesn't interfere much with radio and isolates currents, like our atmosphere instead of our oceans. Dynamos might be difficult without metals/magnets, but chemical batteries are well feasible, provided the environment doesn't conduct the electricity away.

Same with the conductors; I think we're being limited to the metal-and-fire-based tech we're used to. Some alien world could have different available materials, or evolution might just lead them to completely different methods.