Is it true that most KSP players never go interplanetary?

[Kertech]

What mods do people need for going interplanetary, I use http://ksp.olex.biz/ for eyeballing angles and kerbal alarmclock (absolute essential for me!!!). Kerbal engineer just for the DV readout in editor, without these Interplanetary (especially returning) is just too risky

[KerikBalm]

11 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Something to with lack of delta-v readout *cough* and launch window planning tools *cough cough* in the game, maybe?   Two components that are, if not critical to going interplanetary, psychologically very important for people who want some reassurance that their mission will work before they launch it.

It seems very odd to me that the mechanics of going to, say, Duna, is something you have to look up online because there isn't enough information in-game. The forum community is conspicuously smaller than even the 30,000 Steam ratings (let alone the total number of sales!) so we can suspect that the majority of players never get to the stage of asking the internet how to do things, and thus run into total brick walls. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people still think the game is in beta...

I could easily believe that @5thHorseman has it right in that it's so easy to pick up KSP when you're only mildly curious, but then you hit the learning curve/information drought and just can't be bothered.

So, an in game method for finding transfer windows, craft dV, dV maps (knowing your crafts dV capability is useless if you don't know how much you need), and players who have barely played it

Personally, I can calculate my craft dV from what is given in the editor (its tedious though)... they really should just list it, I agree.

Lets not consider people who bought the game, but have barely played it... and only consider those that played enough to have returned from Mun/Minmus. What I want to know is:

#1) What percent of those people have gone on to interplanetary missions?

#2) For the remaining portion: what prevented them from going on interplanetary missions next?

 

PS, as noted: "The forum community is conspicuously smaller than even the 30,000 Steam ratings (let alone the total number of sales!)"

Posts by forum members about what planets they've visited aren't reallly relevant... its far from an "unbiased" sampling of KSP players, so it doesn't help answer #1. A post about what was holding you back before going interplanetary, would help answer #2.

[Sereneti]

1) Docking
2) no autopilot
3) no info
4) waste a lot of time
5) no fun
6) riski for manned spaceflights -

[Green Baron]

The "old school" players have surely been everywhere. Playing since 0.23 i have been to and returned from every possible stock body except tylo, most of them multiple times. Played OPM in .90 and 1.0x and planted a probe everywhere and set satellites everwhere to obtain charts. I sent manned missions to every system including opm but didn't land everywhere.

I see it as others before: once that's done there isn't any more to do. I'm through with the game-mechanics, and the bad quality of 1.1.x doesn't lure me back.

But if i can encourage others who think about leaving Kerbin's SOI: going to Duna isn't more difficult as going to the mun, it doesn't take that much more dV (see the charts), but doing it the first time is of course much more rewarding. The game mechanics with maneuver-nodes and course-markers make these trips really easy.

 

[Docsprock]

I am one of those. Over 2000 hours played. I have been to Duna once, using infinite fuel, and Laythe once the same way.

 And there are a lot of reasons I wont attempt travelling outward again.

Going to Mun/Minmus doesnt take much, fuel wise, or planning wise. For anything further, I have to just eyeball the fuel and hope for the best. Not fun when you spend the better part of a day making a trip to Duna only to find out you do not have enough fuel.

Trial and error to reach the outer planets is not enjoyable for me. Playing a game, and having to use pen, paper and calculator, is not enjoyable either.

Plus, like others have posted, docking is a ridiculous chore, and I plan to never attempt it again. (Spent an entire weekend docking a ship to a station, only to have it blow up.) I dont have the patience or 'fine touch' everyone else seems to have.

Then there is modding. I have nothing really against modding in general, in fact I have several games that I have heavily modded. Just not this one. When this game is complete, I will consider modding. I will not mod the game because I 'must' to have fun.

So, I just sit on Kerbin and make my planes and rovers.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Docsprock

[Superfluous J]

21 minutes ago, Kertech said:

What mods do people need for going interplanetary, I use http://ksp.olex.biz/ for eyeballing angles and kerbal alarmclock (absolute essential for me!!!). Kerbal engineer just for the DV readout in editor, without these Interplanetary (especially returning) is just too risky

Need is a strong word. I don't need any mods to go interplanetary. However I won't bother to do it without:

• Kerbal Engineer Redux, or something that will tell me by-the-stage dV and TWR in the VAB at least, and in flight if possible.
• Kerbal Alarm Clock, if for nothing else so I can hit time warp, go refill my coffee, and come back paused at the SOI change or maneuver node instead of being thrown out of the system by a random gravity slingshot.
• PreciseNode, which I almost won't even go to Mun and Minmus without.
• Transfer Window Planner, which is extremely nice but not actually on my list, considering I'm doing a Grand Tour right now and am not using it.

[Theysen]

In the stock Game and the stock tree I basically rush having the first SAS capable probe + solar panels and throw little science probes at everything at every launch window. The science cumulates even with a few experiments only and this playstyle satisfies my slightly realistic attempt even in stock as far as progression is concerned. 

[KSK]

3 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

So... for #1, would you say part of the problem is the difficulty in finding transfer windows?

Journey times in months aren't such a problem for sandbox games... there's the timewarp function after all. It does make tinkering a little tedious, and I've found HE enourmously enhanced my gameplay just for tinkering purposes (now in 1.1.2, I'm back to getting to orbit, then editing the save file to change the reference body and SMA... a little more tedious for tinkering, easier than all the timewarping to windows and all the stuff to get to a planet to test though... like I did with my first duna missions)

#2) This may be true for Dres, but there's no moon with an atmosphere, some of the aerostuff is fun, but then you may say that can be done on kerbin... there's nothing to really *do* anywhere except see the sights, and conquer the challenges.

#3) Is this not true of Mun and Minmus, or do you consider those two more detailed?

If you don't run career saves, then you should have no problem starting a sandbox save and just time warping to the time and through the transfer... if something else strikes your fancy, it doesn't have to be in the same savegame, you don't have to put off the timewarp to a transfer window or through the transfer.

Anyway... I do play career a lot, and the reason I haven't visited Dres, Jool, or Eeloo/the outer planets (OPM mod)... is time and the transfer windows. I don't like timewarping doing nothing in career when there's other stuff I could be doing... so... my eve mission is just arriving now, my moho mission just got back, my dres mission is nearly there, my jool missions are still on the way (the probes are nearly there, the kerbals just left kerbin and will take a while), my Duna mission is awaiting the return window.

The only planet I've been to and back from is moho.. because its the shortest, and the transfer window happens the most often.

To me, the main thing that puts me off from launching or completing interplanetary missions (outside of sandbox), is the transfer window. When I think of all the time my kerbals will spend there waiting for the return window as well, I then want to make it a more substantial mission, which rapidly snowballs into a very major effort.

I wonder if a planetoid at L4/L5 would be a good addition as the next step after mun/minmus, but before Duna/Eve.

While the transfer would be quite different from what one does for other missions (making its "training value" dubious), the advantage would be that there is no transfer window... you can depart at any time for almost the same dV (exactly the same if it has absolutely 0 inclination and eccentricity)... just like Mun and Minmus.

It could at least get players comfortable with going farther away from kerbin, and the more complicated way that one returns to kerbin.

I think we're of a very similar mind here, KerikBalm. I'm not playing much KSP these days but when I did play, I preferred a career-alike style of game, regardless of which game mode I was actually playing. I too dislike timewarping ahead, doing nothing - at least for interplanetary length journeys. And like you, I have that hankering to make the mission more substantial, which then becomes a bigger effort than I really have time to put into. I guess I could run single missions in Sandbox but then I hit that psychological 'why bother' barrier. Set up a proper interplanetary mission, land kerbals on another world - then pick up some rocks, look around for a bit and timewarp till its time to go home.

So I've taken the lazy way out. I've put probes around Moho, Eve and Duna and I had some in transit to Dres and Jool on a couple of (now abandoned) games. So I can do interplanetary, I'm just not particularly motivated to do it with kerbals. The idea of doing a proper, The Martian style epic journey to Duna always seems way more appealing in my head than it does when I open the VAB and have to get started.

Answering your queries:

1.  Yes - finding transfer windows is part of it but more generally, it's the lack of guidance (transfer windows are helpful but can be ignored with sufficient delta-v) and general discoverability for interplanetary missions. As you pointed out, you can depart for the Mun or Minmus at pretty much any time you like - and it's not too hard to figure out what to do just by playing with the Map, especially now with the improved tutorials. That discoverability doesn't really extend to interplanetary flight.

2.  Agreed - it's all about the journey rather than the destination. Which is great if enjoy planning the journey but not so good if you need an enticing destination to motivate you to start planning.

3.  It's absolutely true of the Mun and Minmus but because they're a lot easier to get to, it doesn't matter quite as much somehow. Plus (and I can't speak for anyone else here ), I'm enough of an Apollo nerd to still get a buzz from going to the Mún.

Edited May 17, 2016 by KSK

[The_Rocketeer]

If people are staying local to Kerbin, even atmospheric, I don't think that necessarily means they're experiencing any less original content. Less exotic than other planets perhaps, but let's consider for a moment that before you reach space, KSP is already an incredible engineering, exploration and flight simulator, with a rich and fascinating environment to navigate. Games are all about escapism - exploring the surface of Kerbin could be a game all by itself.

When I started playing KSP, I was particularly fascinated with the movie Apollo 13, and wanted to try recreating the crafts, vessels and transfers of the Apollo missions. I think this is probably a good approximation for the expectations of many first-timers coming to KSP. Even if KSP was still just the Sun, Kerbin and Mun you could spend thousands of hours and still not see or do everything it has to offer. My point is, you set and pursue your own goals in this game, so if reaching Mun and returning is the pinnacle of your achievements, that could actually be the 'end game' scenario for many players.

One thing I have noticed is that since Career was released, I've felt pressured to play KSP 'properly' by primarily playing Career mode. Gradually I've come to realise that this actually puts a real damper on my creativity and enjoyment of the game, because it's so constrictive about what missions you conduct and where you can afford to get to. For many players who didn't experience pre-career mode KSP, I suspect that they also (wronly in my view) assume that Career is KSP as it's 'intended' to be played, and this assumption is just another way of piling bricks on that learning-curve-cum-wall.

Lastly, going interplanetary doesn't need any mods - I've been to Eve, Jool's moons, Duna and Dres all in stock crafts (admittedly not in career mode/since 1.0). I haven't often returned from those places, and it was a hell of a learning curve to understand how inefficiently I was doing this, but essentially it was just a question of bolting on more fueltanks until I had enough to get somewhere and then messing around with the manoeuvre planner until I got an intercept.

[Curveball Anders]

1 hour ago, Kertech said:

I feel it's docking that holds people back, you could build an interplanetary vessel as soon as you have docking ports in career mode! Docking is a pain to learn and needs patience so a lot of people don't bother ( I know I didn't for a year! soon as I learnt I conquered the solar system!)

I do it manually once per save (as with most other stuff).

Then I hand it over to MJ.

I refuse to repeat boring stuff when playing a game.

[Kertech]

Quote

Then I hand it over to mech jeb

@Curveball Anders

My mechjeb stopped working last year so had to learn manual properly, not sure if it's fixed now.

(also ipad makes using this forum so tricky!)

[Sereneti]

but, i think that its not the part of the game, to mod it, to hit the game-goals....



 

[Kertech]

Just now, Sereneti said:

but, i think that its not the part of the game, to mod it, to hit the game-goals....



 

(yay quotes working again!) I agree, but then the mods are there so might as well, I'm not going to on principle leave a hand tied behind my back

[Curveball Anders]

Just now, Kertech said:

@Curveball Anders

My mechjeb stopped working last year so had to learn manual properly, not sure if it's fixed now.

Did 3 mj-dockings this morning, with quite a miserable beast of a craft that takes almost a minute to align itself, without any issues.

 

[The_Rocketeer]

2 minutes ago, Kertech said:

I'm not going to on principle leave a hand tied behind my back

I've invented a game just for you, with absolutely no arbitrary hand-tying.

Well done, you just won.

[Kertech]

1 minute ago, Curveball Anders said:

Did 3 mj-dockings this morning, with quite a miserable beast of a craft that takes almost a minute to align itself, without any issues.

 

urgh, this was hell, since my computer broke I've been ksping on a laptop so craft are smaller so lag and stuff is less of an issue weirdly!

[Sereneti]

3 minutes ago, Kertech said:

(yay quotes working again!) I agree, but then the mods are there so might as well, I'm not going to on principle leave a hand tied behind my back

true...
KSP - still Beta...

[Kertech]

Just now, The_Rocketeer said:

I've invented a game just for you, with absolutely no arbitrary hand-tying.

Well done, you just won.

within reason, I use tac, remote tech but that's gameplay, not game issues

[Creature]

I don't doubt that docking is one obstacle, but I have no issues with docking and I still rarely do interplanetary missions. During my 700 hours with KSP, I've only been to Duna a couple of times and Eve once. One reason is that the tech tree or progression in general doesn't do much  to promote it, in fact I only went to Eve because BTSM mod held me at gunpoint gave me a solid reason to go there. Also there's nothing special to do on other planets unless you need some science and plotting the intercept isn't really exciting. And once you have a solid grip on docking, assembling interplanetary crafts to most planets isn't that big of an engineering challenge. Not to mention the fact that big ships means big lag. So basically after doing it once to see how it works there wasn't much incentive to go interplanetary again. My other Duna missions have actually been about testing various winged and VTOL aircraft there - something I can't do on Kerbin. Currently I'm playing with a bigger tech tree, lots of base building and resource gathering mods and lower science rewards which hopefully make interplanetary missions more lucrative and engaging.

I guess overall going to other planets is a pretty big effort, planning the intercept is mostly just annoying even with mods and once you get there there's very little to do that you can't do on Kerbin, Mun or Minmus. I'm glad if some people find exploring procedurally generated terrain interesting, but I just don't find the fun in that.

[Blaarkies]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

Something to with lack of delta-v readout *cough* and launch window planning tools *cough cough* in the game, maybe?   Two components that are, if not critical to going interplanetary, psychologically very important for people who want some reassurance that their mission will work before they launch it.

It seems very odd to me that the mechanics of going to, say, Duna, is something you have to look up online because there isn't enough information in-game. The forum community is conspicuously smaller than even the 30,000 Steam ratings (let alone the total number of sales!) so we can suspect that the majority of players never get to the stage of asking the internet how to do things, and thus run into total brick walls. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people still think the game is in beta...

I could easily believe that @5thHorseman has it right in that it's so easy to pick up KSP when you're only mildly curious, but then you hit the learning curve/information drought and just can't be bothered.

For myself - probes to every body in 0.90. Short 1.0.5 career where I went to atmospheric targets only, and haven't really started my 1.1 career because I want to see whether Squad can fix the wheel issues...

I remember my first interplanetary mission - to Duna. I escaped Kerbin's SOI gently(this at a random time of the year), then once in solar orbit I proceeded with standard rendezvous...it took a few game years to line up a good intercept for capture. I even did it after I learned the Oberth effect! (just a couple of missions though)

There is no "Going interplanetary" tutorial, is there? I think that is the best place to start. Give the player a rough idea how it works, then the player can do(the most hated) method of trial and error to go interplanetary. But the existing planets should be made more interesting to make it worthwhile...10 minutes after touchdown at Duna, i felt empty inside, realizing there was really nothing to do there 
And many players may get stuck on planes, which are really fun even though they have near zero purpose in the game

[Red Shirt]

Career sucks the life out of the game for me. In sandbox, I have been to and returned from all possible stock bodies. People mention planets are boring but for me cruising down the valleys of Eeloo in a rover was a breath taking experience.

I suspect many give up before making their first orbit. The idea that interplanetary is harder than a Mun landing is an incorrect mental block. After my first return mission to Mun, I took the same craft and went to Duna. I didn't even know what dv was, so of course I couldn't return to orbit. Like Rocketeer, on my rescue mission I strapped on moar boosters and had at it. With success came stupid courage. I went to Moho with the rescue ship.... and couldn't make orbit, so moar boosters. Not knowing dv is not a reason people aren't venturing outward.

 

[Red Iron Crown]

Made this meme a year and a half ago, sadly still relevant:

I really think it's the lack of planning tools that makes interplanetary travel challenging. After the first initial difficulty hump of getting to orbit, followed by getting to Mun/Minmus, the next step desired is interplanetary. But the game doesn't tell you anything about transfer windows or delta-V (aside from some passing mention in the new KSPedia), and the player time investment to get somewhere by trial and error is prohibitive. 

It is certainly possible to go interplanetary in stock, but it is very challenging for an inexperienced player, especially if they don't know to consult external tools/websites that show phase angle and all that. Trying to go at the "wrong" time can mean many times more fuel is required (tyranny of the rocket equation, etc).

The stock game really needs a delta-V meter and some way to show requirements and transfer window timing, these are the basic tools of interplanetary flight.

[Guest]

I used to do interplanetary missions all the time, before career mode. I haven't even attempted an interplanetary mission in a long time. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment, starting over with every new release, hoping for something better. It gets old real fast when something gets "fixed" and ends up breaking a bunch of other crap. I find myself playing the game now out of some morbid curiosity, remembering how it used to be, hoping that somehow the game can make some sort of miraculous comeback to its former glory, before Steam and talk of consoles and mob controlled development decisions. Back when the games creator was a regular on these forums, only to be delegated now to an occasional obligatory mention in the devnotes.

[The_Rocketeer]

1 minute ago, Otis said:

I used to do interplanetary missions all the time, before career mode. I haven't even attempted an interplanetary mission in a long time. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment, starting over with every new release, hoping for something better. It gets old real fast when something gets "fixed" and ends up breaking a bunch of other crap. I find myself playing the game now out of some morbid curiosity, remembering how it used to be, hoping that somehow the game can make some sort of miraculous comeback to its former glory, before Steam and talk of consoles and mob controlled development decisions. Back when the games creator was a regular on these forums, only to be delegated now to an occasional obligatory mention in the devnotes.

I share many of these sentiments.

[Atlas2342]

Well, now I'm just depressed. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Atlas2342