We are losing Squad Staff!

[Tw1]

57 minutes ago, regex said:

What if Harv feels like everything he wanted to do on the game is done?  What if he feels like it's in capable hands?  What if Harv actually thinks the game is finished, aside from bugfixing?  What better time to step out and let fresh minds and new ideas shape the product he's created.

Exactamo.

I can empathise with those who feels that there's something odd with HarvesteR's departure. It's easy to get emotionally invested in creative projects, it can be hard to imagine leaving such a thing in the hands of others, who could change it ways you'd never want. 

But recall how detailed HarvesteR's original idea was. At the start, kerbals hadn't even been visualised, they only had the name.

Plus, KSP seems to have settled. Over the past few years, few of the features added have been major departures from the core of the game, more like extra layers, or refinements. 

 

I'm going to try being optimistic about this. KSP is far from flawless (cough career mode cough)  and some changes could increase the chance we'll see the game expanded in ways we've talked about for ages. 

There's a chance they run it into the ground, but optimism is a choice here. 

[Snark]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

KSP has always been more of Felipe's project than Squad's. He had the idea, he had the dream, he was the lead developer.

...

But it's his project more than it is Squad's.

...

But his input for his project is perfectly reasonable

...

But it's his game.

...

This game was more of a personal project. Always was.

No, that's not how software development works.  It strikes me as not only inaccurate, but rather insulting both to the folks at Squad and to Felipe himself.

I don't downplay Felipe's contributions.  He had the idea, and that's great.  And he poured a lot of vision and passion into the project, and contributed reams of code, and that's great, too.

But if he had been on his own-- KSP never would have happened.  An effort of this scale requires far more work than one developer can supply.  It also requires funds and risk-taking that he couldn't supply, either.  He took his idea to his employers, and they liked it and said "go for it".  They took on the financial risk of developing and distributing the game.  They paid him for his work.  And they provided the resources (i.e. other engineers, testers, etc.) to make it happen.  The moment that happened, it was no longer Felipe's project, it was Squad's, and it was a team effort.

"Lead developer" does not mean "only developer".  Go back and read through the hundreds of Devnote Tuesdays that have been posted-- it's not just "HarvesteR this, HarvesteR that"; it's lots and lots of hard work and, yes, creative input from other developers.  To call this "HarvesteR's project" is to dismiss the enormous amounts of effort and creative thought that the rest of the team put into it.

And also, to do so is to insult HarvesteR himself, though that may not be so obvious to someone who hasn't worked in this industry.  "Lead developer" does not mean "prima donna."  Well, it can... but any lead developer who's a prima donna is a bad lead.  A primary characteristic of a truly brilliant and productive programmer is that they render themselves superfluous.  They build a structure that's so robust that it stands well on its own.  They produce structures and code that are clear enough that when one engineer leaves, another can step in without a disruption.  If HarvesteR left behind a legacy such that KSP would fall apart without him... that would mean that he did a bad job and failed as an engineer.  And I don't think he did that, and implying that he did seems to denigrate the hard work that he put into this project.

Does that mean that there will be zero contact between HarvesteR and Squad in the future, that they'll never consult him?  Who knows?  Maybe, maybe not.  But since Squad and Felipe are all competent people who know their business, I think it's safe to say that if a question comes up where they need to ask him something, I expect he'd answer the phone.  But if he's done his job right on KSP (as I assume he has, barring evidence to the contrary)... there ought to be very little need for such consultation.  Needing that would mean that somebody dropped the ball.

Felipe planted the seed and nurtured the seedling, and we all owe him an immense debt of gratitude for that.  But KSP is not his "personal project" now, and hasn't been for quite some time.  He's passed on the baton and moved on.

[KasperVld]

As a lot of people have already stated, this sort of thing often happens when large, long duration projects (such as KSP) hit a new major milestone. I have much respect for both Felipe and Dan for sticking with us over the past year while developing 1.1, and not leaving the team midway through. It's never a good time, but there are definitely worse times to leave. I can't wait to see what they'll come up with next as both are incredibly talented people who no doubt will bring enjoyment to many people in the future.

As for KSP, we have grown a lot over the past year(s), and so has the team. We have plenty of ideas for KSP in the future

 

[cantab]

1 hour ago, Tw1 said:

But recall how detailed HarvesteR's original idea was

Funnily enough, from what I've heard about Harvester's original plans, KSP has actually gone in a slightly different direction. As I understood it Harvester had in mind more of a space program management game, and that's one of the more recent and arguably weaker aspects to KSP which is more of a build-em and fly-em game.

Which has probably been a good thing for KSP, mind you. It's got orders of magnitudes more sales than Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager, which is very firmly on the manager-ey side of things.

[Vanamonde]

Quote

Where there's smoke... 

... there's sometimes just fog. Or maybe even a cozy fireplace. 

[regex]

22 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Or maybe even a cozy fireplace.

THAT'S STILL A FIRE, MAN!  It's all on fire!  The bugs are never getting fixed!  Everyone's leaving!  KSP is dying!

Seriously people, KSP has been in development for five years and we have word of at least two more updates in the works.  We're likely to get at least another year out of it, at least.

[wumpus]

Just out of curiosity, did HarvesteR stay (I'm not sure he was with Squad when he even came up with KSP) with Squad (looks like danRosas isn't)?  One advantage KSP might have over other Squad projects is the visibility and reach of the game, as opposed to simple marketing gimmicks they seem to do for other companies.

As far as "development will continue", that might be true, but I suspect that Harvester and others are looking at a decreasing TODO list and an increasing length of time each tick will take and deciding that "built KSP from up from the barn" has all the shine on the old resume that it ever will have.  While HarvesterR's permanent veto of N-body gravity might no longer apply, I really doubt that whoever took over really wants to redesign the entire physics system (and re-slay the kraken) to do that.  Multiplayer has always been a dream to many, but doesn't play well with the critical game feature of time-warping.

One thing that really could use a good overhaul is career mode.  It really needs a game designer (HarvesteR is obviously a great programmer.  Many of the physics cheats/simplifications are brilliant, and the general GUI is brilliant [although I really wished he re-did the VAB GUI instead of the rocket GUI], but designing a good program/simulation and a good game are completely different) and a better idea of what bits of KSP a career player should experience (right now it seems grind away on Kerbin, then grind almost as long on Mun, then at the very end of the game go visit some planets*).

* this might be completely reasonable without KE or launch window calculators.  I sometimes forget how difficult "stock" KSP is.

 

[GarrisonChisholm]

8 hours ago, Snark said:

That's not how it works-- and with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

People leave all the time in the software industry-- ... It's the circle of life.

 

I would like to nominate Snark for this month's Sober Citizen award for this marvelously down-to-earth and sensible post. 

[HMIC]

7 hours ago, regex said:

KSP is dying.

Ummm.. no it's not ..  

[qromodynmc]

If i have to put some meanings on all these;

Ksp is probably evolving into next stage, it'll get updates, with less features but more bug fixes.

What do we have left to add? 1.2 will be big and nice update after all, with pbr graphic upgrade, maybe we'll see clouds and pretty lighting effects, we'll also get antenna upgrade.

As for 1.3, i dont know. Some dev started to work on multiplayer long time ago but i think it's abandoned.

Anyway, i have no doubt about other devs, they'll do their best to make ksp flawless and best.

[FullMetalMachinist]

52 minutes ago, HMIC said:

Ummm.. no it's not ..  

He was being sarcastic. Don't feel too bad, @regex is a master of the sarcastic arts. I've more than once seen someone fall for it. 

[Tourist]

7 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

I would like to nominate Snark for this month's Sober Citizen award for this marvelously down-to-earth and sensible post. 

I second that nomination. 

This thread suggests his moniker is a bit of a misnomer.... far from bringing the Snark at all rather than good thoughtful argument. Regex on the other hand is in full snarky, sarcastic, satirical flight... its marvelous to behold... like performance art.

To throw the Doomsayers a bone. KSP development will end! And yes the end is nigh. But they are not there yet. Why? Because there is still money to be made. \

The console release is coming up soon, which will open new markets. They will want to keep developing the game while this is going on because while the booty from the consoles will be shared with Flying Tiger, it will also inevitably lead to increased sales of KSP on PC. 

Also the long delayed (and in my mind, unnecessary) multiplayer will bring in more customers too. There will be diminishing returns, of course, the but while there is profit, there will be development. At this stage, you will probably start seeing the team scale back and we can break out the "doomsday: Repent" signs. Depending on how long the consoles versions take to release and get right and how long a token multiplayer takes to sticky tape on, I say another year an a half before the chicken little is... off the leash... released from the factory farm, ... um metaphor fail.     

Edited June 10, 2016 by Tourist

[HMIC]

36 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

He was being sarcastic. Don't feel too bad, @regex is a master of the sarcastic arts. I've more than once seen someone fall for it. 

Hmmm.... ummmm ... yes, so have I (trying hard not to LoL)... guess who ?? (hint, it's in this very same quote) ... @regex *sigh* this internet, it's so ... full of surprises.. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by HMIC

[MaxPeck]

You guys have it all wrong.  

Microsoft has bought the rights to KSP so they can develop it as part of their Hololens empire, alongside Minecraft.  All of the devs have gotten big fat payouts, and they're leaving in small groups so as to not alert the masses that there's been a change in management, lest people flee the game ahead of the takeover by the evil empire.  It's all been pre-planned and structured.  The devs and staff will leave in ones and twos over the course of the summer, ostensibly for "personal reasons."  Once the takeover is complete and Microsoft has it's own people in place, you'll get word that the patcher is finally fixed!  And then, once day with you start KSP, you'll get a notice that it's automagically updating, and instead of Squad's logo, you'll see the Four Windowpanes of the Apocalypse. and a brilliant splash screen that informs you that you're now playing MSKSP.  People on here telling you that "this happens all the time" in the software industry are actually Microsoft plants who were sent in ahead of time to earn the trust of the community and keep you calm during the transition.  Think about it... all of the sudden new hires from the community.  The staff exodus, beginning with Dr. Turkey (who clearly facilitated the deal and got the first payout), followed by the game's lead designer (who got a nice big payout, no doubt, since it was his concept)... and now the slow exodus will begin.  Maybe that's the big announcement that Squad teased during the "vacation", which was actually a period of forced silence from all employees while Microsoft's legal team did their due diligence, finalized the deal and started cutting checks.  Maybe in the next few weeks, you'll come onto the forum to see the big announcement (a la minecraft) that Microsoft has taken over the game, and how great it will be having a big production house pouring resources into development.  It all fits.

My work here is done.  Discuss and enjoy.

[Fred Cop]

An animator and writer left Valve in the past four months and no one panicked that Valve was shutting down.

I know squad is generally smaller, but I don't see any reason to panic over the loss of two members who both want to work on other projects for a change.

 

Sure, they've made a pretty big impact on the game, but there is more than half the development team still working on KSP, so unless everyone at Squad suddenly wanted to do something other than Kerbal Space Program there is no need to fear.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Fred Cop

[pandaman]

Well, to pass comment on what @JJE64 said on his post above. ..

'Personal reasons' is admittedly a vague term, but I think 'receiving a big fat payout from Microsoft' (and therefore being able to avoid working for them) would be probably count as a fairly genuine 'personal reason' to leave for many. 

DIsclaimer. .   The above comment is intended for humour only, I have no idea what Microsoft are like as an employer so there is no need to tap into my Windows 10 to monitor my actions.

[Corw]

On 09.06.2016. at 0:26 AM, regex said:

And?  People move on or reprioritize and things change, just get used to it.

Still, this is not same as Pedro the intern leaving the project. This is HarvesteR. This is like Jobs leaving the Apple, Bill Gates leaving the Microsoft... He is the guy with the idea.

Team creating a game is not same as team installing air conditioners, you can't swap anyone out without hurting the team. It seams to me everybody is downplaying this change a little bit too much.

Yes, I understand that HarvesteR got different priorities in his life during these years, but I don't believe the project will go unscratched like they keep saying...

[regex]

19 minutes ago, Corw said:

Still, this is not same as Pedro the intern leaving the project. This is HarvesteR. This is like Jobs leaving the Apple, Bill Gates leaving the Microsoft... He is the guy with the idea.

And the idea is well established and has made oodles of cash, Harv can safely leave without compromising the idea.

19 minutes ago, Corw said:

Team creating a game is not same as team installing air conditioners, you can't swap anyone out without hurting the team.

Depends on who the team members are in a dev team just as much as it does with HVAC installation.  The right team has to have the right camraderie, culture, and training.

19 minutes ago, Corw said:

It seams to me everybody is downplaying this change a little bit too much.

Why?  KSP is a solidified game and yet I continually see calls to redesign parts of it.  Maybe Harv leaving will be a good thing for the game's design, maybe it'll be bad.  Regardless, the idea is solid and isn't going anywhere.

19 minutes ago, Corw said:

but I don't believe the project will go unscratched like they keep saying...

Get used to change, it's a part of life.

[pandaman]

Will there be changes to the 'team dynamic' because a key member or two moved on?  Yes of course.  Will KSP take a slightly different direction now that a new 'head' is steering things?  Quite possibly, no matter how similar peoples 'visions' may be there will always be differences in detail.

These are natural and normal consequences of any personnel changes, but they are not necessarily 'bad', 'good', 'better' or 'worse' than before, they are just changes.

[kiwi1960]

People. I assume young people, have no idea about how life works.

Would you want these people to be forced working on the game when they want to move on? The game would suffer then, their hearts would not be in it.

The thing is, when one person leaves, the vacancy that opens up means the person they get to fill it will have new ideas, new ways of doing things, if the game suffers, its their heads that will roll, therefore, the replacements they get will be better and bring a whole new out look for the game, the only way therefore is up!

Programmers get so rigid in their thinking that they cannot see the bugs for looking... maybe the new guys can solve the "stutter" bug?

Either way... I'd only be concerned if they all left and announced the game won't be developed anymore, and as this isn't happening, then there is no need to panic.

The future looks good... lets wait and see what the new boys/girls are like before passing judgement.

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Padishar]

1 hour ago, kiwi1960 said:

maybe the new guys can solve the "stutter" bug?

The "stutter" isn't a bug, as such.  It is caused by the developers not following certain coding principles during early development when the impact of the excessive garbage creation was much less noticeable.  As more and more code has been written the problem has got progressively worse.  I could see the stutter back in 0.23 though it generally required stressing the game quite considerably.  In the latest versions I can clearly see the stutter even in some very low stress situations.

I'm not, in any way, saying that the new guys won't solve (or at least improve) the issue.  I (and others) have been investigating the worst garbage sources for some time and communicating with the devs about them and I'm pretty confident that 1.1.3 will see a significant improvement in this area and 1.2 should see even more...

[X-SR71]

16 hours ago, MircoMars said:

and the first thing I thought was "hey, the guy who said 'absolutely no chance of a stock deltaV readout' is gone". 

That's a very positive way to look at it! Stock dV readouts now, please!

[DChurchill]

7 hours ago, regex said:

Get used to change, it's a part of life.

+1 internets to regex.

KSP will die someday, but not this day.

[suicidejunkie]

On Thursday, June 09, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Snark said:

People hop projects, people hop companies, and nobody thinks anything of it.  (Indeed, if you're looking at someone's resume and you see that they've been working on one single product for the past umpty years, some people start to wonder "if this guy's so good, why hasn't he done anything new in so long?").  In the past 20+ years I've worked at half a dozen companies, and probably a couple of dozen projects, and that's normal.

And when you move on to another company, you don't "offer input" to the old one, at least not normally.  Because you want to focus on your new gig, and your new company wants your undivided attention-- they're paying you for it, they have a right to it.  People give a friendly wave goodbye and then they go, they don't stick around like Banquo's ghost.

This does vary by region, but loyalty used to be a thing (in both directions).

Projects and positions come and go, but people and companies would stick together.  Around here, there are lots of people who have been in the office for 30-40 years, although the majority are 10-20.  These people have seen the pitfalls already, they've practically memorized the docs, they know the customers, and they are shortcuts to advanced knowledge for everybody else.  When we see the turnover overseas, we just shake our heads.

If you can't get people to stick around for more than a year and a half, how do you expect to learn enough to do well?  Oh, quality started dropping?  Projects taking forever?  Go figure.

[HMIC]

Guys! This game is far from done to be hashing a #SaveSquad.  

An idea that turns into a real finaliized and released product will stay for a looonnnngg time!  Having  key members or even founders leave is not a sign for panic or armaggedon for something like KSP.  If these people would've left prior to the 0.23 version, then YES! by all means we start wondering "well, guess KSP did not work, that's as far as it'll go, maybe unless someone else takes it".  But we are way beyond that! Once KSP 1.0 released this game is now too big for one or even all key persons leaving to stop it.  You can sell the licence to another publisher or development house and it would still go on, there's way too much market and money to be made out of this product.  This is just the end of the beggining. 

Did TAC fuel balancer mod die when @TaranisElsu stooped supporting  it?? NO! Someone else took over @Z-Key Aerospace

Jobs is long gone from apple, and the Iphone is still going.  Getting boring now after the new version, but still going LoL!! (don't compare this one to KSP! LoL!!)

Need more KSP!! Now!! I'm ditching work and going home to play now!! It's friday!! 

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by HMIC