[Minimum KSP version - 1.11] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.12

[Numberyellow]

1 hour ago, IgorZ said:

as soon as possible

'Nuff said.

1 hour ago, IgorZ said:

What I definitely don't like, is transferring resources over a steel cable. I spent 6 years of my life, learning physics!

aaaaaaand, i'm dead.

[Tonka Crash]

@IgorZ For the air-to-air refuelling case, it looks like a new parts for a specialized plug and socket for the probe and drogue if you want to keep this all in KAS. Can KASLinkWinch and KASLinkResourceConnector be combined on the same part? You need the resource transfer of the RTS-1 with the winches ability to extend and retract the hose.  The other issue is you need to be able to automatically connect if the probe and drogue are within range of each other, but that just sounds like ModuleDockingNode. That where I think new parts are needed for the drogue attached at the end of the hose and a probe on the refuelling aircraft.  I don't know where where @MaverickSawyer got the basket and probe parts in his picture they look like approximations of what would really be desired, but KAS would need similar parts.

If the winch gui can be added to the RTS-1 without affecting the current method of having  Kerbal just grab the connector and attach it manually to a ship I don't see a problem upgrading the RTS-1.

[MaverickSawyer]

The docking ports are from Bluedog Design Bureau, but that particular set of ports has been acting... oddly as of late. If you're willing to take on making a new docking ports set up, a probe and drogue pairing dedicated to fuel transfer would be excellent. Probes could be both fixed and retractable, but the drogue should be common to both probes. I think it'd see use outside of refueling work, but this *is* KSP, where folks have zero qualms about using a bunch of thermometers as a bearing race. 

As for how the new mode could work... I'd say make it have a limited tensile strength before it fails, and limit the retraction power of the winch motor to prevent it from being used as a winch for hoisting stuff.

[fatcargo]

8 hours ago, IgorZ said:

I cannot say for the other modders. As of me (KAS), there is no way to attach anything in VAB/SPH. If I start explaining "why", it would take couple of pages. In nutshell, it's very complicated to make it stable. At this moment of time, KAS is only designed to be used by an EVA kerbal in the flight. Sorry, you cannot do anything in the editor. 

I'll try to reply with least stress/impact on work : i was asking if it would be possible to add part(s) that perform same function as Engineer on EVA. A type of port/connector (or better yet a pair of such ports) that can attach part to vessel in flight with connection that is of equal type and strength as any other part normally built in editor. Such connection would be autostrut/KJR compatible.

If such connection would be implemented, it would not matter if (for example) a resource container was added in VAB/SPH or in flight. In both cases, resource container would be connected to vessel the same way. All without EVA Engineer, just parts and vessels.

It could VISUALLY look like a docking port or a hooking clamp for securing payload. If this is added to KAS, it would enable "payload reintegration" to vessels for example a unmanned truck but without wobbling associated with claws, magnets or docking ports.

[MaverickSawyer]

44 minutes ago, fatcargo said:

I'll try to reply with least stress/impact on work : i was asking if it would be possible to add part(s) that perform same function as Engineer on EVA. A type of port/connector (or better yet a pair of such ports) that can attach part to vessel in flight with connection that is of equal type and strength as any other part normally built in editor. Such connection would be autostrut/KJR compatible.

If such connection would be implemented, it would not matter if (for example) a resource container was added in VAB/SPH or in flight. In both cases, resource container would be connected to vessel the same way. All without EVA Engineer, just parts and vessels.

It could VISUALLY look like a docking port or a hooking clamp for securing payload. If this is added to KAS, it would enable "payload reintegration" to vessels for example a unmanned truck but without wobbling associated with claws, magnets or docking ports.

There's the deployable struts for stabilizing a vehicle/structure. If you design them in from the outset, they look fantastic.

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, fatcargo said:

I'll try to reply with least stress/impact on work : i was asking if it would be possible to add part(s) that perform same function as Engineer on EVA. A type of port/connector (or better yet a pair of such ports) that can attach part to vessel in flight with connection that is of equal type and strength as any other part normally built in editor. Such connection would be autostrut/KJR compatible.

If such connection would be implemented, it would not matter if (for example) a resource container was added in VAB/SPH or in flight. In both cases, resource container would be connected to vessel the same way. All without EVA Engineer, just parts and vessels.

It could VISUALLY look like a docking port or a hooking clamp for securing payload. If this is added to KAS, it would enable "payload reintegration" to vessels for example a unmanned truck but without wobbling associated with claws, magnets or docking ports.

Sounds like you're describing Konstruction ports to me:

 

 

[argentrolf]

15 hours ago, IgorZ said:

There was a reason. I assumed that a steel cable is not exactly a good media to transfer resources. I've completely missed your use-case, though. And to fix it, I'm ready to hear any ideas. Maybe we can allow RTS to behave the same way as winch does? Like, you deploy the RTS head and allow it to fly. What I definitely don't like, is transferring resources over a steel cable. I spent 6 years of my life, learning physics!

as for this... a "winchable resource transfer cable" maybe?

[fatcargo]

5 hours ago, DStaal said:

Sounds like you're describing Konstruction ports to me

Bingo! But with one important  caveat : once connected, there is no way to separate joined parts. And as far as game logic regarding Konstruction ports is concerned, this is ok. What i am proposing is a feature that allows the same part connection that is reverisble (ie a part can be detached).

Problem is how and when to determine which part needs to be disconnected. In KAS, this is achieved by letting player target the part using an ingame-avatar representation of himeslf/herself in game - a Kerbal Engineer on EVA using tools.

If attempting to just plainly add option to every part that can be detached in flight without any representing entity, player will be confused by this inconsistency.

Thus, there must be a separate part that will introduce such functionality with its rules that will make it consistent with rest of game logic. A sort of Konstrucion port with detach action.

All above considering a detachable parts without Kerbal, a fully automatic operation. Same as not needing a Kerbal to dock/undock two vessels with docking ports.

Edited January 26, 2019 by fatcargo

[Tonka Crash]

@fatcargo A Konstruction port with a detach option is just a standard docking port. The point to the Konstruction ports is that they cease to exist when activated. There is nothing left behind to indicate a joint ever existed.

[fatcargo]

Correct, but i used Konstrucion ports merely to demonstrate part of my idea, not as desired effect. I'll try to explain this ...

EXAMPLE :

Imagine this scenario where Konstruction ports were never invented, instead RoverDude made a plugin that allows player to arbitrarily connect any part to any vessel in flight. Player would be able to simply use its vessel in orbit to get close enough to derelict Mk1 Command Pod, right click on it and use a new option "Join to my vessel". The pod (and its Kerbal inhabitant) would be instanly added to ship. The newly attached pod would have no visible connection to player's vessel.

Of course, this scenario makes no sense. But when you add a part such as Konstruction port, and a rule that docked craft can join to your vessel using only these ports,  then the whole idea of joining craft/parts in flight starts to make sense.

Same with my idea : join AND RELEASE parts in flight that are connected via Unity3D FixedJoint connection (this is used when building crafts in VAB/SPH), used via separate part that introduces this functionality into the game.

[IgorZ]

39 minutes ago, fatcargo said:

Same with my idea : join AND RELEASE parts in flight that are connected via Unity3D FixedJoint connection (this is used when building crafts in VAB/SPH), used via separate part that introduces this functionality into the game.

Why a regular docking port doesn't fit the role?

2 hours ago, argentrolf said:

as for this... a "winchable resource transfer cable" maybe?

That's what RTS does. The part's design explicitly states that its "winchable cable" is a hose.

[fatcargo]

I'm starting to seriously doubt myself, i need sleep... Anyway i (mistakenly ?) thought that docking ports do not have as strong connection as editor-built parts. I tried looking at KAS sources to learn more but i am tired. I'll look at it later. Is there a somewhat comprehensive list of unity3d joint types mapped to KSP vanilla/modded parts ?

[IgorZ]

1 hour ago, fatcargo said:

Anyway i (mistakenly ?) thought that docking ports do not have as strong connection as editor-built parts.

The docking ports give exactly the same joint strength as the regular joint between the parts. There is one caveat, though. The joint rigidness depends on the docking port size. In the editor the strength is based on the node size. That said, heavy parts should be connected with medium or big ports.

1 hour ago, fatcargo said:

Is there a somewhat comprehensive list of unity3d joint types mapped to KSP vanilla/modded parts ?

KSP uses ConfigurebleJoint PhysX joints. If the node is tiny or medium, there will be only one PhysicX joint between the parts. For the large nodes 3 PhysX joints are created, they are distributed on a circle of some diameter to give the connection a better rigidness. Note, that the stock game joints are not rigid! In PhysX terms, all the joints are "ConfigurableJointMotion.Limited". And it doesn't matter if they are from docking ports or "from the editor". That's why on a long vessel the parts may start bouncing. Afaik, the rigid option can be turned on via AdvancedTweakable option, but not sure. At the API level there is a way to turn the stock joint into a rigid mode (ConfigurableJointMotion.Locked).

For more technical details see class "PartJoint". It's the place where all the PhysX logic is handled. Btw, all KAS parts use this class to make the locked joints. E.g. TJ-1 establishes a link using the stock class.

[180afraid]

Any way this can be updated for the current version of ksp and get it back up on CKAN ?

[IgorZ]

15 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

Can KASLinkWinch and KASLinkResourceConnector be combined on the same part?

Alas, they cannot   These both modules inherit from the same parent module (KASLinkSourcePhysical), since I assumed they will never be acting together, and the functionality is completely unrelated. Now, I understand that the suggestion was not exactly right. And that's why community is so important in testing betas   I wish someone could poke me with this refueling use-case when KAS was in Beta.

Anyways. Fear not! We'll have it handled. Give me some time to think (and don't hesitate to give your ideas in the meanwhile). It seems to me now, that RTS is not that different from the winch... Except, I still don't approve an idea to transfer resources over a steel cable. An RTS part with a weak "cable" strength can be a solution.

A HINT for those who likes risk and don't care about physics:

Spoiler

You can adjust the winch part by adding an extra setting:

showCouplingUi = true

This will allow you to "dock", even though your are on a deployed winch cable. It may (if you're lucky) allow you to refuel. Will it be stable? No guarantee! Will it be physical? Not at all! But you can try. And let's pretend I never said it   I'll be denying everything if you say "you've told me to try!". Because I didn't  

 

56 minutes ago, 180afraid said:

Any way this can be updated for the current version of ksp and get it back up on CKAN ?

Yes.

[MaverickSawyer]

1 hour ago, IgorZ said:

An RTS part with a weak "cable" strength can be a solution.

Pretty much my though process. Tensile strength would be much lower, but still there. Enough to pull a drogue unit behind it.

So, if we use my example from a while ago as a baseline for how I envision this working...

The hose reel/winch remains attached to the "tanker", and spools out the RTS hose. Attached (but NOT DOCKED) to the end of the hose is a "drogue", which in this case was a BDB drogue docking port from the LEM that comes with the pack, a 50% scaled 0.625m-1.25m structural adaptor, and a tweakscaled hose end. (This is probably not going to be the case for future missions. I just wanted something that looked good and functioned largely like I wanted.) You can then happily dock to the drogue unit with the receiver aircraft, as it's not docked to the hose unit, and then use the RTS GUI to pump fuel across as normal. Undock from the drogue, back off, and reel in the droge, making sure to dock it to the hose end when done to avoid summoning the Kraken or similar disasters. The benefit of the RTS you implemented is the fact that you don't need to dock the two craft together to transfer fuel, which means the two aircraft can fly on their own in close formation, and no crashes ensue.

 

I hope this helps you understand what I am looking at for the system.

Quote

And that's why community is so important in testing betas   I wish someone could poke me with this refueling use-case when KAS was in Beta.

Had I paid any attention to the presence of the beta, I absolutely would have tried this again with the winch and brought it up earlier. If you need a field tester for this, absolutely hit me up. I'll happily test it, as I'm... kinda responsible for throwing this at you now. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by MaverickSawyer

[Bombaatu]

I've noticed an odd bug where Kerbals become invisible. To recreate:

1. Put a Kerbal on EVA.
2. Equip the Screwdriver (have not tested with the wrench, but it may also cause the issue).
3. Re-enter the vessel
4. Go back on EVA
5. Unequip the Screwdriver

At this point the Kerbal will disappear. If you re-equip the screwdriver then it will appear but the Kerbal will not. The only way I've found to bring them back is to enter the ship WITHOUT the screwdriver equipped. When you exit the craft again, the Kerbal will be visible and equipping/unequipping the screwdriver will be normal. 

NOTE: the bug also appears if you reload a quicksave where the Kerbal has an equipped screwdriver; unequipping it after loading a quicksave will cause the Kerbal to disappear. 

[Loren Pechtel]

3 hours ago, Bombaatu said:

I've noticed an odd bug where Kerbals become invisible. To recreate:

1. Put a Kerbal on EVA.
2. Equip the Screwdriver (have not tested with the wrench, but it may also cause the issue).
3. Re-enter the vessel
4. Go back on EVA
5. Unequip the Screwdriver

At this point the Kerbal will disappear. If you re-equip the screwdriver then it will appear but the Kerbal will not. The only way I've found to bring them back is to enter the ship WITHOUT the screwdriver equipped. When you exit the craft again, the Kerbal will be visible and equipping/unequipping the screwdriver will be normal. 

NOTE: the bug also appears if you reload a quicksave where the Kerbal has an equipped screwdriver; unequipping it after loading a quicksave will cause the Kerbal to disappear. 

Does their name also change to James Bond?

[IgorZ]

4 hours ago, Bombaatu said:

I've noticed an odd bug where Kerbals become invisible. To recreate:

1. Put a Kerbal on EVA.
2. Equip the Screwdriver (have not tested with the wrench, but it may also cause the issue).
3. Re-enter the vessel
4. Go back on EVA
5. Unequip the Screwdriver

At this point the Kerbal will disappear. If you re-equip the screwdriver then it will appear but the Kerbal will not. The only way I've found to bring them back is to enter the ship WITHOUT the screwdriver equipped. When you exit the craft again, the Kerbal will be visible and equipping/unequipping the screwdriver will be normal. 

NOTE: the bug also appears if you reload a quicksave where the Kerbal has an equipped screwdriver; unequipping it after loading a quicksave will cause the Kerbal to disappear. 

First of all, the screwdriver tool is a KIS part, not KAS. Second, the described pattern is a very common use-case, I did it tens of times just this month. Given there were no complaints till now, I'd suggest it's a mods conflict. Please, try reproducing this issue on a pristine game with no other mods but KIS. If the issue won't show up, then it's the case, and the only way how it can potentially be fixed, is if you find the name of the exact mod that conflicts. Don't forget to attach the logs once you've found the "offending" mod. And, please, post the results to the KIS thread.

[FLO]

There will be an update for KAS too? Or should I use KIS and KAS with no problem for now?

[infinite_monkey]

On 1/28/2019 at 2:32 AM, Bombaatu said:

I've noticed an odd bug where Kerbals become invisible. To recreate:

1. Put a Kerbal on EVA.
2. Equip the Screwdriver (have not tested with the wrench, but it may also cause the issue).
3. Re-enter the vessel
4. Go back on EVA
5. Unequip the Screwdriver

At this point the Kerbal will disappear. If you re-equip the screwdriver then it will appear but the Kerbal will not. The only way I've found to bring them back is to enter the ship WITHOUT the screwdriver equipped. When you exit the craft again, the Kerbal will be visible and equipping/unequipping the screwdriver will be normal. 

NOTE: the bug also appears if you reload a quicksave where the Kerbal has an equipped screwdriver; unequipping it after loading a quicksave will cause the Kerbal to disappear. 

I have the same issue, but yeah, that's KIS, not KAS

[Marxon]

Kinda sad that the winches and grappler tips are legacy, was planning to make a space trebuchet for deorbiting debris using the winches to increase the effective length of the swing arm...

Still no plans to update those parts?

 

Edit: I feel like a dunce for not checking payload...
Shall I post pics of my orbital trebuchet once completed?

Edited February 4, 2019 by Marxon
Stupidity

[IgorZ]

27 minutes ago, Marxon said:

Still no plans to update those parts?

The winches are not legacy. They are in the new version. What's not working for you?

As for the harpoons/grapplers, there is a plan to have them supported. Eventually.

[Marxon]

1 minute ago, IgorZ said:

The winches are not legacy. They are in the new version. What's not working for you?

As for the harpoons/grapplers, there is a plan to have them supported. Eventually.

Yeah I see that now, for the time being I suppose I'll have to actually rendevous with space trash instead of close flybys before flinging it retrograde

[Montieth]

On 1/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, IgorZ said:

There was a reason. I assumed that a steel cable is not exactly a good media to transfer resources. I've completely missed your use-case, though. And to fix it, I'm ready to hear any ideas. Maybe we can allow RTS to behave the same way as winch does? Like, you deploy the RTS head and allow it to fly. What I definitely don't like, is transferring resources over a steel cable. I spent 6 years of my life, learning physics!

.

The thing to remember is that a steel cable is actually wrapped around another cable or sometimes a fiber strand there to hold oil. A hose is just a hollow cable designed to hold MORE oil than with a fiber wick. 

http://www.gsproducts.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/wire-rope-fiber-core-2_2_copy.jpg

And you can transfer power over a cable....that's a resource ain't it?