Why is this game still on the market place?

[The_Rocketeer]

Just now, RW1984 said:

Nestor replied publicly so there's precedent , problem is that was almost a month ago!!!!

Shocking, I know, but the devs don't post here at your beck and whim, and they are not expected or paid to respond to your complaints here. This is a community forum, not a complaints desk. We are blessed to have generally good and positive direct interactions with Squad staff and game and mod developers here. Getting salty with them generally just damages that relationship.

What you're doing here is like standing on the highstreet outside a shop that sold you something, shouting at the window that you're unhappy and want to talk about it, getting no reply, and then telling all the passers by what a terrible shop it is. What you need to do is rethink your approach - go inside, ask to speak to the manager, and have a proper grown up conversation about it.
 

7 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

It's like spousal abuse

wow ... I don't think it's quite gotten to that yet... apart from anything my experience of KSP is (of necessity) pretty casual these days, so it doesn't beat me every day. It's also not the case that I'm hoping it will change without any reason to think it will - I know it will change, regularly, because it is in development and demonstrably has done in the past. I simply learned not to have unrealistic expectations about release schedules.
 

11 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

you are seeing this from a PC players perspective.  The console players have had *none* of this so far.

Well, stick around and learn to appreciate what you've bought. Or demand a refund, I don't mind. I'm simply trying to smooth ruffled feathers and calm down the aggravated. As far as I can tell, that's honestly all the forum can offer in such cases.

[RW1984]

4 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Shocking, I know, but the devs don't post here at your beck and whim, and they are not expected or paid to respond to your complaints here. This is a community forum, not a complaints desk. We are blessed to have generally good and positive direct interactions with Squad staff and game and mod developers here. Getting salty with them generally just damages that relationship.

What you're doing here is like standing on the highstreet outside a shop that sold you something, shouting at the window that you're unhappy and want to talk about it, getting no reply, and then telling all the passers by what a terrible shop it is. What you need to do is rethink your approach - go inside, ask to speak to the manager, and have a proper grown up conversation about it.
 

wow ... I don't think it's quite gotten to that yet... apart from anything my experience of KSP is (of necessity) pretty casual these days, so it doesn't beat me every day. It's also not the case that I'm hoping it will change without any reason to think it will - I know it will change, regularly, because it is in development and demonstrably has done in the past. I simply learned not to have unrealistic expectations about release schedules.
 

Well, stick around and learn to appreciate what you've bought. Or demand a refund, I don't mind. I'm simply trying to smooth ruffled feathers and calm down the aggravated. As far as I can tell, that's honestly all the forum can offer in such cases.

The devs post every week, the past few weeks they've not acknowledged the console problems one bit, they are however very responsive to the PC players. Ive been gaming on PC and console for twenty years and have never come across a game in this condition, we shouldn't even have to plead for info we deserve it because guess what, we've been sold a defective product

 

[Sonny_Jim]

6 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

What you're doing here is like standing on the highstreet outside a shop that sold you something, shouting at the window that you're unhappy and want to talk about it, getting no reply, and then telling all the passers by what a terrible shop it is.

Hmm, I reckon it's more like they went into the shop, complained to a member of staff who just ignored them, so then they went outside to start yelling.  At the end of their day, if they want to do that, it's their right to do so and I don't blame them for it.

9 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Well, stick around and learn to appreciate what you've bought.

As I said previously, the "Wait they'll fix it" response is a bitter one to swallow, considering it's been over a month and zero acknowledgement through the official channels.  If you lost the ability to save your game on PC and had no way of rolling back to an earlier version that worked, would you seriously keep on playing it and 'learn to appreciate it'?

[The_Rocketeer]

16 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

The devs post every week, the past few weeks they've not acknowledged the console problems one bit, they are however very responsive to the PC players. Ive been gaming on PC and console for twenty years and have never come across a game in this condition, we shouldn't even have to plead for info we deserve it because guess what, we've been sold a defective product

I think you're guilty here of seeing this as a console player. The devnotes apply to PC players and console players equally in every respect (except arguably the occasional nod to mod-ability). The devs also don't respond to the majority of questions, they generally (and individually) respond to a small selection. Getting a direct reply is tantamount to a personal compliment - the devs mostly post here in their personal time, after all.

Once again, I'm not arguing that you should be satisfied with KSP if you're not, but I am saying that this forum and this thread is not the right way to get satisfaction.

13 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

I reckon it's more like they went into the shop, complained to a member of staff who just ignored them...

And this is the problem. You think you spoke to a member of staff, but in reality you didn't. That's not what the forum exists for or how it works. Occasionally it serendipitously works out that way (when the guy who knows happens to see your post at a convenient time to just give out the answer), but really most posts here never get a moments thought out of the dev team, and frankly rightly so - they have more important work to do than spend all day responding to disgruntled customers forum users.

I've said this a few times now, but I'll say it once more.

If you want a refund, talk to your vendor.
If you want details, approach Squad (or the dev team) directly - even a PM might work out better than a public post.
If you want a fix, just wait patiently.

That's basically it. Sorry I can't give u more, but after all I'm just another guy on the internet waiting for the next patch.

Edited August 31, 2016 by The_Rocketeer

[RW1984]

1 minute ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I think you're guilty here of seeing this as a console player. The devnotes apply to PC players and console players equally in every respect (except arguably the occasional nod to mod-ability). The devs also don't respond to the majority of questions, they generally (and individually) respond to a small selection. Getting a direct reply is tantamount to a personal compliment - the devs mostly post here in their personal time, after all.

Once again, I'm not arguing that you should be satisfied with KSP if you're not, but I am saying that this forum and this thread is not the right way to get satisfaction.

And this is the problem. You think you spoke to a member of staff, but in reality you didn't. That's not what the forum exists for or how it works. Occasionally it serendipitously works out that way (when the guy who knows happens to see your post at a convenient time to just give out the answer), but really most posts here never get a moments thought out of the dev team, and frankly rightly so - they have more important work to do than spend all day responding to disgruntled customers.

I've said this a few times now, but I'll say it once more.

If you want a refund, talk to your vendor.
If you want details, approach Squad (or the dev team) directly - even a PM might work out better than a public post.
If you want a fix, just wait patiently.

That's basically it. Sorry I can't give u more, but after all I'm just another guy on the internet waiting for the next patch.

And I've said it before we shouldn't have to ask! They should be making many more announcements, they have our money, we have a waste of time. For many its too late for a refund because people thought a patch would be out in a month at the latest. So are you waiting on the console patch too?

[John FX]

2 hours ago, Sonny_Jim said:

We should be struggling together!

We are!

This reminds me of a relatively recent discussion about an upcoming patch where people were calling for the release to fix bugs and the unwilling consensus reached was that

1, squad do not delay the release of a patch without reason

2, people would complain greatly about a patch that contained more bugs that it fixed

3, squad have not just stopped working on the product

4, squad do not say a release date for patches

5, squad generally don`t talk about things to do with patches which are not already set in stone

 

If someone takes all those points on board then often they see it is pretty pointless to fill 14 pages arguing with other forum users.

Also I`m getting tired of this single thread always being the top one on the main page of the forum.

It`s going nowhere. It`s a digital ouroboros...

[The_Rocketeer]

6 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

So are you waiting on the console patch too?

Yes, of course. Isn't everyone?

[RW1984]

2 minutes ago, John FX said:

We are!

This reminds me of a relatively recent discussion about an upcoming patch where people were calling for the release to fix bugs and the unwilling consensus reached was that

1, squad do not delay the release of a patch without reason

2, people would complain greatly about a patch that contained more bugs that it fixed

3, squad have not just stopped working on the product

4, squad do not say a release date for patches

5, squad generally don`t talk about things to do with patches which are not already set in stone

 

If someone takes all those points on board then often they see it is pretty pointless to fill 14 pages arguing with other forum users.

Also I`m getting tired of this single thread always being the top one on the main page of the forum.

It`s going nowhere. It`s a digital ouroboros...

Maybe we should discuss this in the what did you do in KSP today thread,?  well today I lost all my career saves for a third time

[John FX]

Just now, RW1984 said:

Maybe we should discuss this in the what did you do in KSP today thread,?  well today I lost all my career saves for a third time

Strangely it was that thread I was in just now, I was going to post "I attempted to get a different thread on the front page for `KSP discussion`"

 

So tell me, did your saves reappear when you posted here or was it sort of pointless?

[The_Rocketeer]

9 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

I've said it before we shouldn't have to ask! They should be making many more announcements

Would announcements deliver the patch any faster?

[chimpbone]

1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Anyway, I think we're all talking the same language here now, just from different perspectives. PC KSPers have been dealing with these painful delays for years, and now console players are just getting used to 'how things are done here'. It's painful sometimes, but we've all been thru it. Worth remembering sometimes I think

It seems pretty hard for the PC players to understand that maybe others are having a different experience than they had. You bought the game in early access, we didn't. The game was sold to us on console as a finished product. Nobody forced Squad to make that decision, as they could have released into early access on console. They could have delayed the release, or hired or more competent company to port their game in the first place. Hell, they could have even hired new staff and ported it internally so they could have complete control over the quality of their product. They could have done a lot of things that they didn't do. Nobody made them hire Flying Tiger, who has no history of porting PS4 or Xbox One games. They most likely did it, as someone else pointed out, because they were the cheapest company and because Squad stood to make the most profit by hiring them. 

As far as this just being "how things are done here," and us needing to just to used to it, that's not going to happen. You say you have been dealing with these painful delays for years and yet you bought a game in early access and I bought a finished game, or a game that was sold to me as finished. So yeah, you should have expected delays. I have early access games too and expect bugs and delays. It seems you have failed to make a distinction between an early access game and a finished game because the expectations are different. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by chimpbone

[The_Rocketeer]

1 minute ago, chimpbone said:

The game was sold to us on console as a finished product. Nobody forced Squad to make that decision, as they could have released into early access on console. They could have delayed the release, or hired or more competent company to port their game in the first place.

This is exactly the sort of complaint that I have made myself, and seen made by plenty of others over the years, for one reason or another, on every single release. The problem is actually the console players feel that they are somehow unique among this community in having a product they can't use and feeling that their money was taken for something that didn't work properly. You're not the first, you won't be the last, and that really is just the way it goes around here.

I'm really sorry about that, but slinging muck at the old-boys around here as though they don't understand your pain is just churlish. We do understand, we've seen it before, and even though it's painful it is not eternal, and changes are on the way.

[John FX]

1 hour ago, RW1984 said:

 

 

Let`s see what your actual position is.

So do you think Squad have a patch that they are withholding?

Do you think Squad are not working on fixing console issues?

would you complain if Squad released a patch with large numbers of bugs?

Are you wanting squad to make a special case for consoles and say a release date for an unwritten patch?

What would your reaction be if that date was undeliverable or the patch delivered on that date was full of bugs?

Would you like squad to just speculate in order to pacify you?

What would be your reaction if they did speculate just to pacify you and then their speculation turned out to be undeliverable?

EDIT : I think your answers are no,no,yes,yes,bad,no,bad.

EDIT 2 : I forgot one question : Do you think that wading through 16 pages of comments will speed up or delay the release of any patch?

I would say `delay` myself.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Red Iron Crown

[RW1984]

Facts are we have had a mess sold to us, they didn't get eu certification most likely because the game is a mess yet they didn't mention that at all, that's borderline deceit from squad. they're happy to dicuss tiny tweaks in minute detail yet don't acknowledge a completely broken product.

This is not a beta!! This is my last post because there's no point arguing with this brainwashed comminity

[The_Rocketeer]

1 hour ago, RW1984 said:

Facts are we have had a mess sold to us, they didn't get eu certification most likely because the game is a mess yet they didn't mention that at all, that's borderline deceit from squad. they're happy to dicuss tiny tweaks in minute detail yet don't acknowledge a completely broken product.

This is not a beta!! This is my last post because there's no point arguing with this brainwashed comminity

Squad could probably do better if they decided to, but I've been around long enough to know that they probably won't. Whether that's ok or not is a matter of opinion, and these days it's one I don't really care about enough to hold. When KSP works (which broadly speaking it does the vast majority of the time for the vast majority of players) it makes me not care that there have been times when it didn't.

What you consider tiny tweaks is actually features that some of us have been waiting years to see. What you consider a completely broken product will probably be fixed in a matter of weeks. Squad's track record for bugless releases may be poor, but their record for bugfixing is broadly excellent. Relax, take a break, come back at Christmas and it'll all have blown over.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Red Iron Crown

[John FX]

1 hour ago, RW1984 said:

Facts are we have had a mess sold to us, they didn't get eu certification most likely because the game is a mess yet they didn't mention that at all, that's borderline deceit from squad. they're happy to dicuss tiny tweaks in minute detail yet don't acknowledge a completely broken product.

This is not a beta!! This is my last post because there's no point arguing with this brainwashed comminity

It is not a beta, that was the single beta version which was 0.90.0. Before that the game was in Alpha. What you say has been said since 1.0 about every issue players have had with the game. Your complaint is not new, we have all made it at some point or another and have become pragmatic knowing it does not change anything.

Squads position is that the game is under constant development and the rate of development didn`t change based on any official release or version number.

You can accept that or not but posting here won`t change that.

There will be a patch, it will happen when it happens. The best way of speeding it up is post bugs on the bugtracker with the most detailed explanation of the bug you can. If the bug is already there join the discussion about the particular bug on the bugtracker.

link goes to the post mentioning console updates to the tracker.

EDIT : A link to the bugtracker can be found here

Edited September 1, 2016 by Red Iron Crown

[Galileo]

I think the pc gamers should probably stop posting in here and let the console gamers stew.  There is obviously nothing we can say that will help and won't come across as condescending. 

Hope y'alls game gets fixed,  sincerely. 

[Red Iron Crown]

Getting a bit out of hand here, pausing for cleanup. Reopened.

First off, a number of posts have been removed. As has been mentioned already, this is a contentious topic but surely we are all mature enough to discuss it without lowering ourselves to slinging mud at each other.

I don't think anyone can argue that the console players don't have valid reasons to be upset. The nature of the biggest bug is such that those who are most enthusiastic and commit the most play time are the worst hit. This is, for many of them, their first experience with KSP, and it's a tough one; they don't have reason to feel confident that things will improve. I can certainly see why "You'll have to wait for the patch" is unsatisfactory even if it is all that can be done. The forum is meant to be a place for discussing KSP experiences even if they are negative, but when they are critical it must feel like the entire forum is coming down on them.

People who have been playing longer are approaching this from a different viewpoint. Their whole experience so far has not been negative. They've already been around for some release and patch cycles, and have likely enjoyed enough play time to feel they've gotten good value. Many of them are very enthusiastic about the game, and when some new players voice that their experience has been poor they naturally want to tell them that it gets better, hoping this will allay their disappointment. The community here has long been a positive and friendly one, and this sudden injection of negativity can feel like it is bringing the community down.

For all that their experiences and viewpoints are different, I think it would do us all well to step back a bit and see that the newer members of our community and the longer term ones have more in common than they have differences. We all want KSP to be as bug free as possible. We all want to have the best experience playing KSP. We all want everyone else to have the best experience playing KSP. We all want to feel that we made a good purchase in KSP. And truth be told, I bet Squad wants all those things, too.

So we'd like to ask everyone to not go on the offensive in this thread. Share what your experiences have been, whether positive or negative, by all means. But do not try to invalidate the views of others, do not take someone having a different view as a personal affront, and most importantly do not attack other people because their point of view is different.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Red Iron Crown

[Jeremiah]

On August 19, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Red Iron Crown said:

It's already more playable on console than it was when I started playing it on PC, for what it's worth. vOv

As for locking threads, there's a few things going on there:

- We have rules about treating everyone else on the forum with respect and without accusations, whether users, staff or Squad itself. Accusations of dishonesty or scamming fall into this category. Critique the state of the game as much as you like, but namecalling will not be tolerated.

- We also have a rule about requests for release dates of future versions of KSP, which is even more relevant to the console releases as Squad doesn't control the whole release process.

- No one is telling anyone not to be upset, I certainly sympathize with those who are unsatisfied with the console versions. Being upset, however, does not entitle a user to ignore our forum rules.

- Very few threads have actually been closed on the topic, and others have remained open.

Preemptive: Discussing moderation policy is fine, but we don't discuss individual moderation actions publicly. If there is a specific case you would like to discuss then PM a moderator about it. 

Losing 40+ hours of gameplay due to save corruption, unresponsivness, game crashing, and game freezing does not entitle us to use strong language? Is this a joke? The game's been out on console for almost two months and there still hasn't been any update for us console players, and almost no information on an update for console. We bought a game assuming it is a working finished game only to find out that it's exactly like playing a pre-alpha beta, so of course people are entitled to be extremely angry. I understand that a new game has bugs, but this is unacceptable and I feel ripped off. I remember playing it on PC in 2013 on a slow very old computer and it worked a thousand times better (except for the ultra slow lag) than it does on my PlayStation 4. After my saved data was corrupted for a second time, I decided to not play the game until it gets an update, and that was back in July, and I'm still waiting. Everyday I check to see if the game has been updated, and everyday I get more and more disappointed and frustrated by how long it's taking.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Jeremiah
Typos

[KasperVld]

2 hours ago, Jeremiah said:

Losing 40+ hours of gameplay due to save corruption, unresponsivness, game crashing, and game freezing does not entitle us to use strong language? Is this a joke? The game's been out on console for almost two months and there still hasn't been any update for use console players, and almost no information on an update for console. We bought a game assuming it is a working finished game only to find out that it's exactly like playing a pre-alpha beta, so of course people are entitled to be extremely angry. I understand that a new game has bugs, but this is unacceptable and I feel ripped off. I remember playing it on PC in 2013 on a slow very old computer and it worked a thousand times better (except for the ultra slow lag) than it does on my PlayStation 4.After my saved data was corrupted for a second time, I decided to not play the game until it gets an update, and that was back in July, and I'm still waiting. Everyday I check to see if the game has been updated, and everyday I get more and more disappointed and frustrated by how long it's taking.

I can definitely understand your frustration, and we're working hard on getting a patch out - because we simply need to. A lot of what you say is true, people pay and expect a fully working game, but some of you are losing savegame data which ruins your gaming experience and that needs to be fixed. That said, I have to side with @Red Iron Crown here in that the forum rules still apply. There's currently no set release date for the patch - but we'll keep everyone updated as progress is made

 

[pandaman]

I can see how those waiting for the console fix that are thinking that 'they haven't said anything for a while, therfore they aren't bothered about us' feel like that may be the case.  And maybe Squad could have mentioned in the devnotes something like 'don't worry,  we are still working on the console fix, we'll keep you posted', which may or may not have helped. But that still wouldn't make a fix happen any sooner and people would still ask 'but when?, what do you mean you don't know?'  

No matter how rational some reasoning may be there will always be those that challenge it.  Or in a few cases 'choose' to disbelieve in order to make a noise.

Rest assured console players, that we fellow players on PC do understand, and fully sympathise with your problem.  We are pleased to welcome you to the game and the forums.  Unfortunately ALL we can offer is understanding, and some encouragement from our own experiences, that Squad have not forgotten you and will fix it as soon as they can.

[The_Rocketeer]

13 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

[of console players frustration] when they are critical it must feel like the entire forum is coming down on them

 

13 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

[of longtime PC gamers] this sudden injection of negativity can feel like it is bringing the community down

I can understand the first quote (been there myself more than once) but personally I don't share the concern of the second. In general my motivation to respond to negativity is not to protect the community, but to help. I guess sometimes some people want to vent frustrations more than they want to do anything practical about them, which is probably fair enough, but when practical solutions are offered and dismissed out of hand it's pretty galling. I believe many PC players posting here aren't doing so to troll console players or PC-master-race it, they're just doing everything they can to help the stuck move past it, and getting a big <snip> in return. Sad really, and so begins the spiral.
 

4 hours ago, KasperVld said:

A lot of what you say is true, people pay and expect a fully working game, but some of you are losing savegame data which ruins your gaming experience and that needs to be fixed.

@RW1984 here is your acknowledgement. Have faith, brother. KSP is worth it.

And not that the badness of another game is the goodness of KSP, but as a PC gamer I am still waiting for an update for Spintires that was promised before Christmas, promised again in April, and there have been no devnotes, no web articles and no news whatsoever at all since. My point being, things could be very much worse than they are.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Red Iron Crown

[Sonny_Jim]

6 hours ago, Jeremiah said:

Losing 40+ hours of gameplay due to save corruption, unresponsivness, game crashing, and game freezing does not entitle us to use strong language?

Feel free to use whatever expletives you wish in your personal company, but in a public place like this you are expected to have a little decorum.  As an example, I play in public pinball tournaments and it's a struggle for me to contain my frustrations verbally, because I'm so used to using language that would make a sailor blush when I'm playing my machines at home.

3 minutes ago, pandaman said:

maybe Squad could have mentioned in the devnotes something like 'don't worry,  we are still working on the console fix, we'll keep you posted', which may or may not have helped.

Yeah I agree, something in the dev notes would have been a double edged sword, some console players would be happy that they'd at least acknowledged the ongoing problems, whereas others would see it as "Saying sorry doesn't help me get my money or my lost saves back".

14 hours ago, Galileo said:

I think the pc gamers should probably stop posting in here and let the console gamers stew.

Well, it's nice when the PC players empathise with the console players, but it sucks when they tell them to just shut up about it and 'stop pushing this topic, it's not going to accomplish anything'.  The latter tends to just rile them up even more and who can blame them.

15 hours ago, John FX said:

Do you think Squad are not working on fixing console issues?

 

Yes, I do.  I believe it's up to FTE to get the console issues sorted, not Squad.  All Squad can do at this point is try to apply pressure to FTE to sort it out.

15 hours ago, John FX said:

Would you like squad to just speculate in order to pacify you?

 

I think at this point, after a month, a lot of them just want Squad to say something similar to KasperVlds post, ie We hear you, we want to fix this for you.

[Red Iron Crown]

9 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I can understand the first quote (been there myself more than once) but personally I don't share the concern of the second. In general my motivation to respond to negativity is not to protect the community, but to help.

My post wasn't aimed at you or any other user in particular, more of a general statement.

9 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I guess sometimes some people want to vent frustrations more than they want to do anything practical about them, which is probably fair enough, but when practical solutions are offered and dismissed out of hand it's pretty galling. I believe many PC players posting here aren't doing so to troll console players or PC-master-race it, they're just doing everything they can to help the stuck move past it, and getting a big <snip> in return. Sad really, and so begins the spiral.

I honestly don't think any of us can help the console players "move past it" until the game is working for them. The practical solutions offered don't fix their legitimate grievance, so they can't really be called solutions at all and can be interpreted as not considering their concerns as serious. Nothing we say is going to make the game playable for them or convince anyone that Squad will deliver the patch, only releasing the patch itself will do that. 

[The_Rocketeer]

10 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

My post wasn't aimed at you or any other user in particular, more of a general statement.

Yes I realise this.

10 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

I honestly don't think any of us can help the console players "move past it" until the game is working for them.

I agree that the practical problem of the game not working can't be solved by this community (my posts of yesterday express this), but when I say 'move past' I'm really referring to the sense of frustration. Not being able to play the game doesn't mean that you have to experience negative emotions about it, and I think what the community can offer is comfort and understanding to those willing to accept it, and even propose practical action that might lead to a greater sense of satisfaction. In more traditional social communities this is sometimes called a support network.

I can see that if you come here feeling wronged and expecting someone here should be able to give you some accountability to your concerns then the community's failure to do this is probably only more frustrating and disappointing, but that isn't the fault of the community or individual community members. Console-user members of this community need to understand that isn't what the forum primarily does, and that in most cases of this kind all most of us can offer is moral support and platitudes.

Edited September 1, 2016 by The_Rocketeer