What Facts Do We Know About The Devs Leaving?

[kiwi1960]

You want the truth.... YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH...... OK, lame movie quote.

You do know that i now consider this thread a joke... to be mocked..and the conspiracy theorists posting within this thread to be... pitied?

Your little witch hunt has come to nothing... your little censorship claim rubbished... your conspiracy theory blown out of the water...

and you people should feel shamed... this "discussion".... involves our friends.... how could you?

Maybe its time we mocked you.....

Maybe... a conspiracy theory about how some want to kill the game we love so much for their own evil ends....

Naaa.... could NEVER get as low as some I've seen in here... I'm just not that nasty.

 

[DoctorDavinci]

3 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

You want the truth.... YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH...... OK, lame movie quote.

You do know that i now consider this thread a joke... to be mocked..and the conspiracy theorists posting within this thread to be... pitied?

Your little witch hunt has come to nothing... your little censorship claim rubbished... your conspiracy theory blown out of the water...

and you people should feel shamed... this "discussion".... involves our friends.... how could you?

Maybe its time we mocked you.....

Maybe... a conspiracy theory about how some want to kill the game we love so much for their own evil ends....

Naaa.... could NEVER get as low as some I've seen in here... I'm just not that nasty.

 

A joke indeed ...... this whole drama fest

[Mycroft]

24 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

You want the truth.... YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH...... OK, lame movie quote.

You do know that i now consider this thread a joke... to be mocked..and the conspiracy theorists posting within this thread to be... pitied?

Your little witch hunt has come to nothing... your little censorship claim rubbished... your conspiracy theory blown out of the water...

and you people should feel shamed... this "discussion".... involves our friends.... how could you?

Maybe its time we mocked you.....

Maybe... a conspiracy theory about how some want to kill the game we love so much for their own evil ends....

Naaa.... could NEVER get as low as some I've seen in here... I'm just not that nasty.

 

I don't think that's entirely true. Just because some have stooped to deplorable depths doesn't mean that the whole thread is a joke. All of those haters have been corrected, and had their myths debunked. Some even listened. So on the whole, I think this thread helps promote rationality. 

[MaxxQ]

3 hours ago, Mycroft said:

 But boy oh boy are we good at beating dead horses! 

I don't consider this a good "dead horse" thread/subject until it's gone on for more than 10 years - another forum I'm on has had at least one thread started by a newbie every month (or an old guy that ought to know better, but thinks he's come up with a solution) for about that long on a particular subject.  That subject has been discussed, disected, analysed, tortured, mauled, beaten, burned to a crisp, salt spread, ashes scattered, and nuked from orbit to be sure, and still it rises from the beyond to continue.

For ten years!

Even the author of the books that this subject is about has tried to kill it dead, dead, dead.  And failed.

[Mycroft]

2 minutes ago, MaxxQ said:

I don't consider this a good "dead horse" thread/subject until it's gone on for more than 10 years - another forum I'm on has had at least one thread started by a newbie every month (or an old guy that ought to know better, but thinks he's come up with a solution) for about that long on a particular subject.  That subject has been discussed, disected, analysed, tortured, mauled, beaten, burned to a crisp, salt spread, ashes scattered, and nuked from orbit to be sure, and still it rises from the beyond to continue.

For ten years!

Even the author of the books that this subject is about has tried to kill it dead, dead, dead.  And failed.

Wow. We may be good at beating dead horses, but those guys are pro's!! 

[MaxxQ]

13 minutes ago, Mycroft said:

Wow. We may be good at beating dead horses, but those guys are pro's!! 

The downside to it is that I'm with a group that works directly with the author on filling in background to his stories (the series is military science fiction/space opera, and my user pic relates to it) that he can't fit into his regular writing (we've published the first of three planned Companion books to the series that gives a ton of background - technical, political, historical - to the stories), and anything we write is considered canon and has the full backing of the author.  I'm the only one from the group that posts on that message board regularly (aside from the forum admin - he's one of us as well, but by necessity, needs to remain neutral), so it means I have to pipe up every now and then to shoot down another solution looking for a problem.  It helps that about 98% of anyone posting there also feels the subject should be closed, but we get some stubborn folks that just can't take "no" for an answer.  Even to the point of insulting the author, albeit unintentionally, since he's a newbie and wasn't aware that the author had already tried to shoot down the subject.

The current ongoing thread is at about 25 pages, and actually seems to have slowed down a bit.  Give it another month or so, and someone else will either start a new one, or necropost that one (or any of the previous 20+ threads on the matter).

Edited October 7, 2016 by MaxxQ

[Vanamonde]

This thread has wandered far from its topic, multiple times, and taken several side trips through personal animosity, formal psychology, and I don't even remember what else. Please stick to the subject, do not attack each other, and if you don't like the thread, simply skip to the next one rather than post solely to mock this one. 

[legoclone09]

1 minute ago, Vanamonde said:

This thread has wandered far from its topic, multiple times, and taken several side trips through personal animosity, formal psychology, and I don't even remember what else. Please stick to the subject, do not attack each other, and if you don't like the thread, simply skip to the next one rather than post solely to mock this one. 

Yeah, it's getting off topic. I don't much like all the pessimism. We're all friends, no need to be angry at anyone. I personally think SQUAD and KSP will do fine, and it's not specifically going to be worse, just different. Time will tell.

[Firemetal]

8 hours ago, nestor said:

Hello,

I like the original intention of this post, listing facts and rumors.

I want to add with a few facts that I can confirm with my role as the Game Producer for KSP.

Fact: Chris (porkjet) left a few weeks ago in a totally unrelated event. He told me he had a new working opportunity. Not sure why he is listed with the rest of the group.

Fact: Sebastian (sarbian) was invited as a temporal dev to help fixing bugs until 1.2 was released

Fact: From the remaining 6 devs, 2 were working part time on KSP

Fact: 1.3 is confirmed, there are already devs working on this new version

Fact: Squad has been looking for new devs since june, new people are already working and more are coming

Fact: RoverDude (or any other team member) was not forced to make any comment about this topic

Fact: The team actually grew in comparison to the beginning of the year, even after these departures

 

These are just facts, I am not making any judgement. I was great working with all of them and I wish them the best of luck on their future endeavours.

Thank you. This makes me and a bunch of other people I am sure,  more reassured.

Thanks!

Fire

[kiwi1960]

21 hours ago, Mycroft said:

I don't think that's entirely true. Just because some have stooped to deplorable depths doesn't mean that the whole thread is a joke. All of those haters have been corrected, and had their myths debunked. Some even listened. So on the whole, I think this thread helps promote rationality. 

There were other ways you could have handled the ...fear? Like... just asking those concerned via PM for their story... or just posted in support of the game, them and squad.

here we are on the verge of 1.2 being released, which should be a good day... a celebration... and its devolved into a shambles of epic proportions... even IF you have tried to reassure those posting myths, as you say. yet... here we are... posting here... which is hardly celebrating a milestone in the games history.

With all due respect to Vanamonde... I want this sorted so it NEVER happens again... so what if a lot of friends left the employ of Squad... its still there, its hiring new devs... meaning, new blood, new skills and new ideas... I don't want to see friends suggesting there is a conspiracy next time anyone leave the dev team... sure... its SAD that so many have left... but lets celebrate what they accomplished... what they did for the game... we have for months now endured ... talk... of the game development ending for whatever reason... and yet, here we are.... 1,2 being released shortly..

Do we REALLY need this negativity when the game is about to reach a new milestone?

I might have gone over the top with sarcasm in my post... but the feelings as outlined in this post still stand.

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Andem]

Hmm. at risk of baiting moderators... wouldn't it be fitting if this thread became the new GIC or Dres doesn't exist meme on the forums?

[Camacha]

2 hours ago, kiwi1960 said:

Naaa.... could NEVER get as low as some I've seen in here... I'm just not that nasty.

You just were.

[Red Iron Crown]

5 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

Do we REALLY need this negativity when the game is about to reach a new milestone?

It you want censorship because of negativity you've come to the wrong shop. Any bit of news about KSP or its development is going to be discussed here, and people should feel free to express negative opinions just as much as positive ones. That's the only way for meaningful discussion to occur.

1 minute ago, Andem said:

Hmm. at risk of baiting moderators... wouldn't it be fitting if this thread became the new GIC or Dres doesn't exist meme on the forums?

Absolutely not.

[Jarin]

19 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Absolutely not.

#TheDevsAreALie

Edited October 7, 2016 by Jarin

[kiwi1960]

20 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

It you want censorship because of negativity you've come to the wrong shop. Any bit of news about KSP or its development is going to be discussed here, and people should feel free to express negative opinions just as much as positive ones. That's the only way for meaningful discussion to occur.

Absolutely not.

Firstly.... I never said the topic shouldn't be allowed... just the negativity... I never said the discussion should be censored... far from it...

But when the devs in question cannot respond... probably because of their employment contract... or whatever, then allowances must be made for that very reason.

Otherwise... seeking answers soon becomes a witch hunt ... and lets face it... its happening...

 

20 hours ago, Firemetal said:

Thank you. This makes me and a bunch of other people I am sure,  more reassured.

Thanks!

Fire

THIS is how it should have been answered ASAP... SORRY, I mean the reply from @nestor which this quote is a reply to...

Edited October 7, 2016 by kiwi1960

[Red Iron Crown]

3 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

Firstly.... I never said the topic shouldn't be allowed... just the negativity... I never said the discussion should be censored... far from it...

Right, you just don't want anyone to post negativity. Why do you feel you should be able to tell people how to post, and how do you feel that is anything other than trying to invalidate their opinions?

3 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

But when the devs in question cannot respond... probably because of their employment contract... or whatever, then allowances must be made for that very reason.

I like to think that they are not responding because they are classy people, any NDA covering it is redundant.

 

[Redneck]

My own personal experience was as a forum moderator back in 2011. Anybody remember the shout box on the forums back then? My experience back then was a good one. Till one day I changed careers in my personal life and no longer had the time to moderate at which time I pm'd Harvester to let him know my situation he was very understanding and told me If I ever wanted my position back to just let him know. The communication between the moderators was great and it was a good environment. I learned alot and meet alot of good people. Capt'n Skunky was a really cool guy gave me alot of advice. I think he was actually the first community manager(whatever happened to him?) Anyways I've been watching the progress of KSP through the years. It's been one hell of a fun ride I got ta tell ya. When Harvester left I was like "What?" and it did concern me and after that all this "stuff" started happening with either a very general reply or no replys at all from squad! What happened to the good ole days when squad would just come out with it and be honest with their fans? Why allow for all this speculation and NEGATIVE hype man? And I got to hand it to you moderators because iv'e been there....How do you moderate with one hand tied behind your back? I get it... I really do. It must be frustrating as hell. In regards to Roverdude...You guys need to back off Rover man! He has stated on his Twitch stream numberous times "He loves what he does period!" And it shows every time he streams. What alot of people dont think about is when he is streaming he is doing it on his own personal time making and modding things HE likes that HE wants in the game. And he'll come straight out and tell you he dont take requests he makes what makes him happy and gives him joy...and then turns around and gives us a great free mod. Now does that sound like some money hungry so-called squad puppet? That is just the most uncoolest thing I have ever heard on these forums since 2011. After all he has contributed for free to the community and to the game itself and all the joy and free knowledge (do you guys realize how much this knowledge would cost at a school or college) he has given to people he invites into his home on Twitch. There are kids that use these forums and at the risk of getting banned im ending my rant here! What in the heck has happened to this community? 

Squad... now would be a good time!

[kiwi1960]

20 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Right, you just don't want anyone to post negativity. Why do you feel you should be able to tell people how to post, and how do you feel that is anything other than trying to invalidate their opinions?

I like to think that they are not responding because they are classy people, any NDA covering it is redundant.

 

because the difference is that I'm not talking about people who cannot respond.. those I am telling CAN and DO respond....

And that is why I am against the unfair negativity... they are classy people... what you are suggesting is that if I started a topic about you then you would be a classy person and not respond.. right... it doesn't make my topic any more right.... which is what I'm saying about this topic. I understand what you are saying about censorship, but to talk about people who cannot, or will not respond is hardly fair... and definitely NOT classy.

[Sandworm]

The negative hype only fills the information void.  Absent any real "facts" [1] the community must draw conclusions from conjecture.  Squad, as any other corporation, would prefer that we do not do this.  They would prefer that we all sit quietly and take information only from official sources.  That isn't how the internet works.  The internet views any lack of information as error and then fills it with whatever junk it can find.  One wishing to define the accepted reality knows to provide sufficiently believable information so that no void appears.   One wishing to create disharmony and "hype" instead encourages voids by withholding information whilst simultaneously discrediting unfriendly information sources.

[1] I cannot stand how "fact" is used in this and other threads.  It's thrown around as some sort of conclusion, that evidence has somehow met some magical standard of proof.  There is no arbitrator.  There is no "reality" in these situations.  Nobody is completely honest.  Nobody is in possession of supreme knowledge.  Facts are whatever the speaker wishes them to be.

[J.Random]

55 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

It you want censorship because of negativity you've come to the wrong shop. Any bit of news about KSP or its development is going to be discussed here, and people should feel free to express negative opinions just as much as positive ones. That's the only way for meaningful discussion to occur.

Funny you should say this. What happened to the "all critics are haters with pitchforks" and "stop the negativity or else" general attitude back from 4 months ago? =)

[kiwi1960]

20 hours ago, J.Random said:

Funny you should say this. What happened to the "all critics are haters with pitchforks" and "stop the negativity or else" general attitude back from 4 months ago? =)

I suspect that was forgotten when I posted...

[Nils277]

Really wanted to stay of of this whole witch-hunt (thanks you @kiwi1960 for this more than fitting description) but i can't get around also giving my two cents about this:

Yes, it also hit me by surprise that so many devs left a mere week before the big 1.2 release. At first i thought that this was really a sudden decision but looking back at the DevNotes since 1.0 had some signs of this to happen. I talk about two things:

1.  I read multiple times that they are working on documenting the internal code. As a developer myself i can assure you that this is considered to be quite the opposite of fun for most of us. And extending the documentation in a big way can be a sign that the software is planned to be handed to another developer. The documentation should help the next dev to understand the code faster and to prevent bugs from only partially understanding it.
2. They did a massive clean up of the deprecated and unused classes and functions. Yes, this does also kinda speed up the game but is also often done before handing the code over to another developer. This makes it easier to understand what is going on and prevent the next dev to accidentally use the old code and cause a huge mess. Personally i also clean up some code before handing it over because i consider some part of the old code as dirty and don't want others to see it.

I believe that (as already said) some of the devs were contracted only for the release of 1.2. And that the employed long term devs decided to also leave Squad after 1.2 together with the contracted ones because 1.2 will be the closest they believe KSP will ever be to their vision of it. 

At a last note: That the development of KSP can't continue forever as it did until now should be obvious to everyone. You have to generate money from a product when you want to pay the people working on it. When this is not the case anymore you either have to stop the development or find new ways to generate money with it.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Nils277

[kiwi1960]

20 hours ago, Nils277 said:

Really wanted to stay of of this whole witch-hunt (thanks you @kiwi1960 for this more than fitting description) but i can't get around also giving my two cents about this:

Yes, it also hit me by surprise that so many devs left a mere week before the big 1.2 release. At first i thought that this was really a sudden decision but looking back at the DevNotes since 1.0 had some signs of this to happen. I talk about two things:

1.  I read multiple times that they are working on documenting the internal code. As a developer myself i can assure you that this is considered to be quite the opposite of fun for most of us. And extending the documentation in a big way can be a sign that the software is planned to be handed to another developer. The documentation should help the next dev to understand the code faster and to prevent bugs from only partially understanding it.
2. They did a massive clean up of the deprecated and unused classes and functions. Yes, this does also kinda speed up the game but is also often done before handing the code over to another developer. This makes it easier to understand what is going on and prevent the next dev to accidentally use the old code and cause a huge mess. Personally i also clean up some code before handing it over because i consider some part of the old code as dirty and don't want others to see it.

I believe that (as already said) some of the devs were contracted only for the release of 1.2. And that the employed long term devs decided to also leave Squad after 1.2 together with the contracted ones because 1.2 will be the closest they believe KSP will ever be to their vision of it. 

At a last note: That the development of KSP can't continue forever as it did until now should be obvious to everyone. You have to generate money from a product when you want to pay the people working on it. When this is not the case anymore you either have to stop the development or find new ways to generate money with it.

One point to what you said, is it any of our business as to what is going on in squad... do we own shares in the company?

no.

I accept that there is much more going on than we have been told, but ... a witch hunt... will have the opposite effect of giving us answers. That is why its not good for anyone.

The truth will always come out.... so we must wait.

Speculating on this ...without all the facts (and the only facts we have is that some Devs have left...) is counter productive... even IF the moderators are happy with that situation.

 

[theJesuit]

13 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

Really wanted to stay of of this whole witch-hunt (thanks you @kiwi1960 for this more than fitting description) but i can't get around also giving my two cents about this:

Yes, it also hit me by surprise that so many devs left a mere week before the big 1.2 release. At first i thought that this was really a sudden decision but looking back at the DevNotes since 1.0 had some signs of this to happen. I talk about two things:

1.  I read multiple times that they are working on documenting the internal code. As a developer myself i can assure you that this is considered to be quite the opposite of fun for most of us. And extending the documentation in a big way can be a sign that the software is planned to be handed to another developer. The documentation should help the next dev to understand the code faster and to prevent bugs from only partially understanding it.
2. They did a massive clean up of the deprecated and unused classes and functions. Yes, this does also kinda speed up the game but is also often done before handing the code over to another developer. This makes it easier to understand what is going on and prevent the next dev to accidentally use the old code and cause a huge mess. Personally i also clean up some code before handing it over because i consider some part of the old code as dirty and don't want others to see it.

I believe that (as already said) some of the devs were contracted only for the release of 1.2. And that the employed long term devs decided to also leave Squad after 1.2 together with the contracted ones because 1.2 will be the closest they believe KSP will ever be to their vision of it. 

At a last note: That the development of KSP can't continue forever as it did until now should be obvious to everyone. You have to generate money from a product when you want to pay the people working on it. When this is not the case anymore you either have to stop the development or find new ways to generate money with it.

Hear here and everywhere.

Peace.

[kiwi1960]

OH.... and there is lots of life left in a game like KSP... had it been Fallout New vegas, then you may be right...

But KSP is an adventure... its open ended with no limits... they can add alternative realities tot he game and it would fit nicely.