[1.2] SpaceDock

[Fendrin]

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Fendrin

[steedcrugeon]

That looks pretty cool @Fendrin. Do the konstruction Arms come in a smaller size as they dwarf the dock. 

[Fendrin]

41 minutes ago, steedcrugeon said:

That looks pretty cool @Fendrin. Do the konstruction Arms come in a smaller size as they dwarf the dock. 

No and yes.

No, those Arms are only in one size available in @RoverDude's Konstruction mod. It is not compatible with tweakSize, at least not the last time I checked.

Yes, because I have already several down and upscaled clones from them on my disc for testing purposes.

I was stupid not doing that from the start.

It is not the Dock the KISPickup module belongs into but it is the konstruction clamp arm.

[Fendrin]

Just compiled the modified KIS.dl needed for the KISPickup building. Have a look at the OP.

[Fendrin]

@steedcrugeon, I have added attach nodes: https://github.com/fendrin/SpaceDock/blob/0.2/GameData/SpaceDock/Parts/Spacedock_Collapsible/SpacedockCollapsibleSm.cfg

[steedcrugeon]

The config has an impressive number of nodes.

so taking the above into consideration and that that dock model is meant to represent the smallest, lightweight entry level variant would you still want it reworked? Bearing in mind this is a 'dorsal dock' configuration and the medium size dock (next part) will be more akin to the Stevie_D style dock with a closed end.

So I should revise my previous statement about model I plan to make. the number is now 4 in total:

- the very small Collapsible SpaceDock, lightweight entry level variant (good for building maybe a space tug?....) pretty much there, as above. Although it will need an extra module to be added to it, plugin TBC, which will allow me to add the animation I was hoping to add to the release versions (this will allow the lighting rungs to open and close (currently they are only closed and fixed) once the dock is extended to give better access).

- Space Tug/Constructor command pod, to aid in dock manufacture and potentially for building larger vessels in the bigger space docks (this may benefit from a Heavy Duty variant of the KISPickUp plugin as well). It has been textured, just needs to be built in Untiy.

- the medium sized Extended Collapsible SpaceDock, a mid level variant. In the design phase, using similar style to the lightweight version but has a layout more similar to the Stevie_D models.

- the XL sized MegaDock™ Constructible SpaceDock, an oversize, customisable high end variant (think Lego, but for space docks). Still in the concept phase but will actually comprise several parts (it will be one model at first which will then be dissected to allow for custom dock configurations) - this version will would benefit from the specialised plugin/parts (most likely the same plugin that the space tug will use) to build it 'on station'

Edited November 4, 2016 by steedcrugeon
updated the plan

[Fendrin]

Quote

... the smallest, lightweight entry level variant would you still want it reworked?

Let's work out what still needs to be done.

Legend

• Cool
  Fine as is

• Okay
  There is room for improvement but no show stopper

• Halfway done

• Makes me cry
  This really needs to be done

• Dislike
  Would be cool to get fixed

Checklist

1. Nodes
   1. Assembly
      One with room for the middle sized docking port, fine.
   2. Konstruction
      Assuming you agree it is fine to attach the tools like shown lately?
   3. Storage
      The pictures show surface attached containers.
      There is currently no place to put a node without having the container clip into the T-Beam.
   4. Station
      The top node's surface is a bit large If the dock is meant as an early entry,
      being more at the left of the tech-tree. Not much parts fitting there are available at that time.
2. Game-play
   1. Light
      Only from below. Better than nothing...
   2. Dimensions
      8m x 8.6m x 21.2m
      Vessels build in orbit most of the time don't need to feature an aerodynamic design.
      Thus the long but narrow rocket shaped one is suboptimal.
   3. Mechanics
      1. Tools can reach the construct
         Yes, but the need to navigate around the truss
      2. Tools can reach the container
         Yes, but they need to navigate around the truss
      3. Tools can transport parts from container to the construct
         No, blocked by the truss
         Well, that is not entirely true, let's say the truss only makes it necessary to pass the part from claw to claw around half the vessel.
3. Immersion
   1. Deploying 
      The vanishing telescope pipe looks really fake and cheated. It reminds me about the fact that I am playing a game.
      That is pretty setup specific. In a high fantasy setup with pretty much hammerspace everywhere such a transformation would be fine.
   2. Stability
      A single part can only have a single set of values describing how it behaves when stressed. Mixing structures which look quite durable with very fragile looking ones is a configuration problem. Shall the whole Dock break at a value that seems to be suited for the truss? Or better take the value suiting the telescope pipes (Which still do look quite fragile)? Or take values suiting the very stable looking T-Beam? Or the center? Most parts have to make some compromise regarding this issue, but usually you break a part into several pieces to solve the issue when it is extreme like in this case.

edit: I have already some proposals in mind, give me some more minutes to find words for them.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Fendrin

[Fendrin]

Okay, I must say, I really like this design a lot. The last post sounds a bit harsh, so let me say, the part is already quite nice and the animation is amazing.

This is a step by step list of what I would do to finish the part. It is ordered by severity.

• The Truss
  Let's start with the biggest problem first, the Truss. It is flawed in so many different ways, let's just get rid of it.
  Removing it and its arm solves 2.3 completely and the biggest part of 3.2.
• The Telescope Pipe
  I would go for 4 sections. Meaning the Dock is still 1/4 of length in that dimension when folded. More might make the pipe a bit thin.
  The extra size is fine, the dock will still be compact enough for a launch. There is now also more room to make it look more stable.
  Solving 3.1
• Storage Node
  Attaching the truss at the top of the T-beams with a brace to avoid the container-T-beam-intersection. Some more lights attached at the bottom of the truss.
  Solves 1.3 and 2.1
• The dimension
  The double beam connecting the T-beams with the center is larger than the double beam connecting the center with the telescope pipes.
  I would use the current T-beam-connector for both. Then every part of the Light-Construction-Arm stretched a bit longer.
  Solving 2.2
• Stability
  coming soon

[steedcrugeon]

28 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

• The Truss
  Let's start with the biggest problem first, the Truss. It is flawed in so many different ways, let's just get rid of it.
  Removing it and its arm solves 2.3 completely and the biggest part of 3.2.

Okay, that's an easy one. I'll strip them off for the 'B' version

29 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

• The Telescope Pipe
  I would go for 4 sections. Meaning the Dock is still 1/4 of length in that dimension when folded. More might make the pipe a bit thin.
  The extra size is fine, the dock will still be compact enough for a launch. There is now also more room to make it look more stable.
  Solving 3.1

I'll beef the 'root' component of these up and add more sections, see version 'B'

31 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

• Storage Node
  Attaching the truss at the top of the T-beams with a brace to avoid the container-T-beam-intersection. Some more lights attached at the bottom of the truss.
  Solves 1.3 and 2.1

I'm going to re-engineer the deploying T-Beams, without the trusses but adding additional light sources. having see how you have used them with the storage nodes I plan to reshape where they pivot the reduce/eliminate the part clipping. Coming soon in version 'B'.

36 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

• The dimension
  The double beam connecting the T-beams with the center is larger than the double beam connecting the center with the telescope pipes.
  I would use the current T-beam-connector for both. Then every part of the Light-Construction-Arm stretched a bit longer.
  Solving 2.2

This can be done, i'm thinking I probably add about 20% more length to all arms

38 minutes ago, Fendrin said:

• Stability
  coming soon

This one can principally be done through a custom PartModule Class. I'm starting to look at how I can write/implement 'ModuleDeployableDock'. It will allow me to restrict dock deployment movements when stuff is in the way. It will also allow me to remove the current 'isBreakable = false' situation and give the deployable parts breaking conditions (eg 30g impacts/collisions etc.) I'm going to need this as some of the future parts will incorporate multiple animations which i'm hoping will force the user to do them in order (eg. cannot deploy 'Z' Because dock is not deployed, or cannot inflate 'Y' because dock is stowed, sort of thing).

1 hour ago, Fendrin said:

1. 1. Station
      The top node's surface is a bit large If the dock is meant as an early entry,
      being more at the left of the tech-tree. Not much parts fitting there are available at that time.

Noted, I will resize the top section to fit size 2 parts.

[Fendrin]

21 hours ago, steedcrugeon said:

The config has an impressive number of nodes.

Yes, because it works with directly connected tool arms instead of using the PAL Truss.
A ShipYard needs a lot of them since the KISPickup will move to the tools in future releases.

Quote

So I should revise my previous statement about model I plan to make. the number is now 4 in total:

- the very small Collapsible SpaceDock, lightweight entry level variant (good for building maybe a space tug?....) pretty much there, as above. Although it will need an extra module to be added to it, plugin TBC, which will allow me to add the animation I was hoping to add to the release versions (this will allow the lighting rungs to open and close (currently they are only closed and fixed) once the dock is extended to give better access).

Sounds like a nice addition.

Quote

- Space Tug/Constructor command pod, to aid in dock manufacture and potentially for building larger vessels in the bigger space docks (this may benefit from a Heavy Duty variant of the KISPickUp plugin as well). It has been textured, just needs to be built in Untiy.

The SpaceDock/ShipYard vessel itself could make use of some more konstruction tools.
Currently (in my local repository) the PAL Clamp is used for both, attaching and moving parts. It does not make sense for it to have the attaching/detaching capability. Thus I like to request another part from you.

Can you take the arm from the PAL Clamp and replace the clamp with some screwdriver tool? One that looks like it can detach parts?

Quote

- the medium sized Extended Collapsible SpaceDock, a mid level variant. In the design phase, using similar style to the lightweight version but has a layout more similar to the Stevie_D models.

This is the one you showed animation for first?

Quote

- the XL sized MegaDock™ Constructible SpaceDock, an oversize, customisable high end variant (think Lego, but for space docks). Still in the concept phase but will actually comprise several parts (it will be one model at first which will then be dissected to allow for custom dock configurations) - this version will would benefit from the specialised plugin/parts (most likely the same plugin that the space tug will use) to build it 'on station'

Okay, I will rewrite ShipYard to support multipart SpaceDocks.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Fendrin

[Fendrin]

 

 

Okay, so the last "B" version fixes most of my concerns.

Put some attach nodes on top of the T-Beams and used a scaled version of the KIS "SM-62 Container Mount" for attaching the storage:

The container mount is pretty useful gameplay wise since it allows uncoupling/coupling the cargo easily. It pretty much looks like being made for fitting onto the T-Beam although not being exactly designed for the containers.

Regarding the new light panels, I wonder if I shall put attach nodes on top of them. Maybe they should move a bit more away from the T-Beam to allow attaching the smaller sized containers in 2 rows? I am going to experiment and will show screenshots if they lead somewhere.

The telescope pipe situation is far better than before. Although the collapsed state is still only about half the size it needs to house all the pipes we see in deployed state. Assuming I get it right how telescope pipes work.
I know you want to make the collapsed state as compact as possible but I wouldn't do that on cost of plausibility. The dock is still quite long, so you can safe some space by reducing the length a bit.

I am also still obsessed with making it a bit more stable. But I can't put my thoughts into words well enough, will think some more.

[Murdabenne]

Guys, whatever you are doing, keep doing it!  This looks so sweet, and I love the idea of a series of shipyard in orbit, especially once I get bases going on mun and minmus for lower cost (to lift) supplies - bootstrapping my orbital stations by building parts (including a larger spacedock) in orbit (I used Davon to avoid spending time on refueling, imagining it as contracting out to SpaceX and other companies).  But the biggest thing is to build things in orbit that would not survive the lift to orbit, true Space craft! Any place to buy you a few beverages of your choice?

Edited November 6, 2016 by Murdabenne

[steedcrugeon]

@Murdabenne oh we are, things may seem like they have gone quiet but far from it.

Fendrin is doing some excellent work leading this project, it ties in very closely with it's sister Mod; ShipYards. The development on them is being done by him in tandem (all with become clear) and hopefully I can keep pace with his coding to get some parts out in good time. I think making parts may become easier when I learn to animate properly in Unity but I'm quite happily turning out the existing parts from blender at the minute.

there may be a sneak peak of the Medium size dock WIP soon™

[Murdabenne]

Oh I wasn't asking you to hurry, I was encouraging you to keep going in the direction you are showing here.  This stuff looks to be very tasty once you're both done cooking it.

[steedcrugeon]

@Murdabenne in that case, here is an appetiser...

This is an early WIP of the Medium sized dock. When @Fendrin has finished his bug hunting I'm hoping he'll be able to open up the plugin he has been working on to more testers. I haven't had time to do it the service it requires abut it's potentially an exceptionally useful addition to an already very powerful Mod.

[Fendrin]

Quote

When @Fendrin has finished his bug hunting I'm hoping he'll be able to open up the plugin he has been working on to more testers. I haven't had time to do it the service it requires abut it's potentially an exceptionally useful addition to an already very powerful Mod.

The modified KIS.dll is still linked in the OP. I would be glad to hear about how it does.

[Shadriss]

On 11/9/2016 at 3:19 AM, steedcrugeon said:

@Murdabenne in that case, here is an appetiser...

This is an early WIP of the Medium sized dock. When @Fendrin has finished his bug hunting I'm hoping he'll be able to open up the plugin he has been working on to more testers. I haven't had time to do it the service it requires abut it's potentially an exceptionally useful addition to an already very powerful Mod.

I like what I see, and with the understanding it's still in WIP state, I am curious why the centerline sections appear to be moving without any attaching pieces? IE - the portion that moves second moves into place with no attachment to the rest of the dock until AFTER they are in place and attach to the docking arms. Man, I hope that was clear...

[Fendrin]

@Shadriss, my first impression was those modules would have to be moved in place by the player using some sort of vessel or kerbals on EVA.
@steedcrugeon explained me that the structures connecting with the dock are not yet defined, haven't asked him about details I suspect them to use similar mechanics to what we have seen on the dock before this one.

[steedcrugeon]

Not a very good video, i am sorry but here's some in-game footage (no audio) of what will be going to alpha release. alas i cannot get the nodes to move with the physics so all the additional storage is best added on orbit (I recommend using the Konstruction bits for that).

Please excuse the clumsiness of my flying in this, i am usually better but i have not done recording and flying at the same time before.

 

[steedcrugeon]

more WIP photos:

Here's an example of stuff you could build using this mod and stock:

Edited November 19, 2016 by steedcrugeon
added more pics

[Murdabenne]

Ohh wow!

[steedcrugeon]

The ongoing development of this has warranted it's own thread: SpaceDock Development

[nascarlaser1]

Since a Konstruction claw doesn't dock to pieces, how do you move them around to build stuff in the space dock? (not sure if this belongs here or in the construction thread.. if in wrong spot then I will continue any questions in the right spot.

[steedcrugeon]

10 hours ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Since a Konstruction claw doesn't dock to pieces, how do you move them around to build stuff in the space dock? (not sure if this belongs here or in the construction thread.. if in wrong spot then I will continue any questions in the right spot.

In the first post there is a link to a modified KIS.dll (so you'll need to have KIS installed for this part to work) but the principal is that the SpaceDock is 'Building' the vessel. Further down the road I believe the plan is that the Konstruction arms would be seen to be doing the work the Kerbals do. In regular KIS you have multiple Kerbals to lift and shift bits in their vicinity. The SpaceDock is similar in that sense, the dock being the lifting and shifting 'kerbal' in this sense.

- Artistic license will have to be used presently as (just like with normal KIS) the currently the part 'magics' from floating in the vicinity to being attached. This affect is slightly more exaggerated with SpaceDock but, whilst it doesn't bother me, @Fendrin is understandably not pleased at how it currently works. -

Lets consider an example where we plan to put up a little dock on and existing station above Mun. The existing station, which has a spare Clamp-o-Tron Snr port, now requires a 'MiniDock' as part of a Contract.

Phase One - Building a dock

First Launch - The MiniDock with a Clamp-o-Tron Snr and a probe controlled 'tug' to get it to dock. Rendezvous with the Munar station and the MiniDock is attached, the tug disconnects and can be utilised elsewhere on the station or de-orbited [Personal Note: I tend to keep tugs hanging around with SpaceDock as I can just take them apart inside the dock and use the pieces later if required] The MiniDock is then 'deployed' and unfurled into it's usable state (let us assume that a Clamp-o-Tron was fitted to the MiniDock inner docking point in the VAB).

Second Launch - 2 Kerbals (we'll use two engineers just because we can) with 2 Short KIS inline storage tanks (2 short rather than 1 long have been chosen in this example for a reason). For this first Cargo the KIS storage have Konstruction arms within for use in the dock. The crewed vessel rendezvous with the Munar Station and docks with the Clamp-o-Tron port inside the MiniDock, already connected to the station. The engineers can then disembark and (for the sake of realism) set to work KIS attaching the Konstruction arms to the nodes in the MiniDock. The MiniDock features Konstruction Nodes so the arms will work  as directed to do so. [Personal Note: I find them to be exceptionally tricky to use in space at the minute]

You can send the Kerbal Engineers inside the station now, or not, the choice is yours.

Phase Two - Using a Dock

Now with the Konstruction arms fitted (not a pre-requisite but it adds more realism) the SpaceDock can Take over the heavy lifting. Our Munar station has one surplus tug floating about and a Crewed vessel (presently Empty) with 2 KIS storage tanks that are no longer needed there. So using KIS (courtesy of the MiniDock) we remove the various parts from the vessel to get to the KIS storage tanks, watch out they will probably try to to float off. Then we take our 'spare' KIS storage tanks and fit them to the 'StorageNodes' (on the MiniDock these are the two nodes above the upper lighting gantries) and these are now available for use by the MiniDock.

This means that the MiniDock can now disassemble the Disused tug straight into the KIS storage tanks, and also any parts of the crewed vessel which are no longer required. The reverse is also true, so the MiniDock can reassemble the crewed vessel (minus the storage tanks that are now stuck to the top of MiniDock) and make any modifcations required, utilise any parts in storage or any parts on the station that the station crew can bring to the vicinity of the MiniDock (it does have range limitations just like a Kerbal).

The Engineers can now be sent back on their leaner vessel, having undergone the first 'Space Refit'.

Phase Three - Profit?

[nascarlaser1]

8 hours ago, steedcrugeon said:

In the first post there is a link to a modified KIS.dll (so you'll need to have KIS installed for this part to work) but the principal is that the SpaceDock is 'Building' the vessel. Further down the road I believe the plan is that the Konstruction arms would be seen to be doing the work the Kerbals do. In regular KIS you have multiple Kerbals to lift and shift bits in their vicinity. The SpaceDock is similar in that sense, the dock being the lifting and shifting 'kerbal' in this sense.

- Artistic license will have to be used presently as (just like with normal KIS) the currently the part 'magics' from floating in the vicinity to being attached. This affect is slightly more exaggerated with SpaceDock but, whilst it doesn't bother me, @Fendrin is understandably not pleased at how it currently works. -

Lets consider an example where we plan to put up a little dock on and existing station above Mun. The existing station, which has a spare Clamp-o-Tron Snr port, now requires a 'MiniDock' as part of a Contract.

Phase One - Building a dock

First Launch - The MiniDock with a Clamp-o-Tron Snr and a probe controlled 'tug' to get it to dock. Rendezvous with the Munar station and the MiniDock is attached, the tug disconnects and can be utilised elsewhere on the station or de-orbited [Personal Note: I tend to keep tugs hanging around with SpaceDock as I can just take them apart inside the dock and use the pieces later if required] The MiniDock is then 'deployed' and unfurled into it's usable state (let us assume that a Clamp-o-Tron was fitted to the MiniDock inner docking point in the VAB).

Second Launch - 2 Kerbals (we'll use two engineers just because we can) with 2 Short KIS inline storage tanks (2 short rather than 1 long have been chosen in this example for a reason). For this first Cargo the KIS storage have Konstruction arms within for use in the dock. The crewed vessel rendezvous with the Munar Station and docks with the Clamp-o-Tron port inside the MiniDock, already connected to the station. The engineers can then disembark and (for the sake of realism) set to work KIS attaching the Konstruction arms to the nodes in the MiniDock. The MiniDock features Konstruction Nodes so the arms will work  as directed to do so. [Personal Note: I find them to be exceptionally tricky to use in space at the minute]

You can send the Kerbal Engineers inside the station now, or not, the choice is yours.

Phase Two - Using a Dock

Now with the Konstruction arms fitted (not a pre-requisite but it adds more realism) the SpaceDock can Take over the heavy lifting. Our Munar station has one surplus tug floating about and a Crewed vessel (presently Empty) with 2 KIS storage tanks that are no longer needed there. So using KIS (courtesy of the MiniDock) we remove the various parts from the vessel to get to the KIS storage tanks, watch out they will probably try to to float off. Then we take our 'spare' KIS storage tanks and fit them to the 'StorageNodes' (on the MiniDock these are the two nodes above the upper lighting gantries) and these are now available for use by the MiniDock.

This means that the MiniDock can now disassemble the Disused tug straight into the KIS storage tanks, and also any parts of the crewed vessel which are no longer required. The reverse is also true, so the MiniDock can reassemble the crewed vessel (minus the storage tanks that are now stuck to the top of MiniDock) and make any modifcations required, utilise any parts in storage or any parts on the station that the station crew can bring to the vicinity of the MiniDock (it does have range limitations just like a Kerbal).

The Engineers can now be sent back on their leaner vessel, having undergone the first 'Space Refit'.

Phase Three - Profit?

so with the extra file it makes the claws from konstruction like a robot?

(also, does the extra file come with CKAN? I got the mod via ckan, and kis/kas, but have not played with it yet.)