Photosensitive seizure triggers?

[Allocthonous]

Has anybody else tried time warping at max speed while at the launch pad and not in map view? The sun becomes a strobe light. While I'm mainly concerned that this is going to cause epilepsy sufferers problems, some mitigation of this strobe effect would be nice for the rest of us as well.

Either that, or disallow max speed time warp outside of map mode.

[Red Iron Crown]

So they should disallow something for all players because a tiny minority are sensitive to it, something that is trivial to avoid if it causes problems? 

[Tr1gg3r]

Surely you need to be aware of something before you can avoid it? Im actually surprised that this has been negatively commented on....i thought it was a very good point brought up, i understand RIC's point, however bet you wouldnt stand up in court and say that eh? At a trial where ksp caused a kids fit and there were no warning signs of any kind? 

Why do you think that news prog's give warnings prior to any broadcast that 'may' produce fits? To give those people ample warning so they can remove themselves from risk. A duty of care to the public.

but hey, whatever..... Fingers crossd this doeant happen to anyone.

[Red Iron Crown]

@Tr1gg3r I have no problem with a warning, but a blanket blocking of the feature seems over the top. 

[p1t1o]

Dont ALL computer games come with a standard epilepsy boiler-plate? Just using a monitor is a potential trigger is it not? A computer can, at any time (within a game or without), suffer a crash or glitch which causes the screen to flicker after all. Just the other day I loaded XCOM 2 and was treated to a nightmare-pink-disco-holocaust as the textures glitched out.

[Tr1gg3r]

Oh indeed, and thats the part that i understood, would be tad harsh on rest of us (delete game and be totally safe. Lol) i just havent seen this brought up before and thought it was important enough to recieve a more considered response, from squad specifically, (not havina pop at u) as im sure a lawsuit would finish them.

these days everyones happy to sue anyone, for anything. Lol crap world, but thats where we are.

pretty sure squad dont need anymore bad press

be interesting to see if they even pick this up and run with it or not.....time will tell.

no skin off my nose, as they say

13 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Dont ALL computer games come with a standard epilepsy boiler-plate? Just using a monitor is a potential trigger is it not? A computer can, at any time (within a game or without), suffer a crash or glitch which causes the screen to flicker after all. Just the other day I loaded XCOM 2 and was treated to a nightmare-pink-disco-holocaust as the textures glitched out.

Hmm interesting, dont know tbh, with all flashes and special effects games utilise these days, not sure if its possible. 

Remember ppl are playing thru tv's console etc also.

im lucky enough not to suffer (thk god) altho you can develop it as i understand.

[DoctorDavinci]

So my cousin has epilepsy and it was made perfectly clear that video games are a no no for her due to this affliction

If the primary care professional has not made it clear that playing video games is not in the best interest of the one afflicted with epilepsy then said primary care provider needs to go back to school

As fo sueing Squad for not putting a 'caution, coffee is hot' label on the digital box, well that is mostly a US problem and wouldn't fly up here in the Great White North ... In Canada it is the responsibility of the person with an affliction, or their guardian, to take precautions to prevent any issues from occurring

 

[p1t1o]

12 minutes ago, Tr1gg3r said:

Hmm interesting, dont know tbh, with all flashes and special effects games utilise these days, not sure if its possible. 

Remember ppl are playing thru tv's console etc also.

im lucky enough not to suffer (thk god) altho you can develop it as i understand.

Did a little googling, couldnt find anything that said games HAVE to have a warning (though I have seen many myself) but what I did find was that a display does not have to be showing a flickering scene to trigger a photosensitive seizure and merely using a monitor or a television is a risk apparently.

 

[Allocthonous]

*shrug*

If it's not really an issue for epileptics, or not more of an issue than computer usage generally, I have no problems with that. I stumbled upon the effect accidentally and thought I'd raise the question. It would still be nice if the bright-to-dark strobe effect were damped down a little bit. It's kind of unpleasant.

[panzer1b]

[snip]

While i perfectly understand that there are a few people on this planet that suffer from siezures, i dont think its up to the KSP devs to guarantee that the game never produces any flashing effects.  [more snip] If its a liability risk, just add a epilepsy warning to the game or something when bought, plenty of other games do that and all this one will require is a minro adjustment to the liscense or some warning before buying (which is what, a few seconds of work).  I understand that certain minorities may have issues with flashing, but i dont think the devs should go out of their way to cater to people that are most likely not even going to be playing any videogames because it isnt just KSP that can produce flashing events, using the computer at all is technically a potential risk of siezures (ive had a few cases where my GPU went nuts and started flashing the entire screen randomly for no apparent reason and i needed to reboot to shut it up)...

Edited October 28, 2016 by Vanamonde
Moderating.

[septemberWaves]

All of you claiming that "you understand that there are a small number of people who are sensitive to it" don't understand a thing. Seizures can cause permanent damage and be incredibly dangerous. It would not be difficult to implement a simple text-based warning that actually, doing a certain thing (like time-warping at high speeds outside of the map view) might cause a seizure (something that, I will reiterate, is immensely more dangerous than you all seem to care about). It doesn't matter that only a small amount of people are affected by it; if even one person is badly harmed by something that could very easily be avoided, that is one person too many. All of you that so vehemently oppose simple warnings (that could help to protect innocent people from something directly harmful to them) are disgusting.

[Vaporized Steel]

I'm not against your idea, and sympathy for whomever, like i.e. yourself or those you know that suffer from it.

However, you can't simply change all the bits that are complained about, that would be chaos. What if every political group could do what they want, get it?

With that logic, lots of games would have to change. Its no surprise why some games state it may trigger photosensitive seizures. Thats a warning! At best ksp may give similar warnings. And that is the best you can expect.

 

[EpicSpaceTroll139]

You clearly haven't seen what can happen when you crash a ship in KSP1.2. If that doesn't cause a seizure then I don't know what will.

Edited October 27, 2016 by EpicSpaceTroll139

[dragonsmate17]

as someone who has Juvenile Myoclonic Epilepsy I ask why is there not a notice about high warping. If a game has a warning then I can set refresh rate down to 110Hz  

Edited October 28, 2016 by dragonsmate17
Infomation

[septemberWaves]

No one is saying remove the mechanics. What should be added is a text-based warning that lets people know that high time warps outside of the map view can cause intense flashing of the kind that can lead to seizures (or similar issues).

[Greenfire32]

I'm not opposed to having a warning being displayed at startup (I mean really, it's not going to leave any sort of negative impact on anyone), but I'll also counter with this:

If you or someone you know who is prone to photosensitive seizures, shouldn't you or that person load ANY video game knowing full well that it may trigger one? Better yet, if it's an actual life-altering chronic issue, shouldn't you be AVOIDING games, TVs, monitors, screens in general?

I mean, apart from those who've never had a photosensitive seizure before, if it's something chronic then I would say the responsibility of AVOIDING one would fall onto the user and not the developer.

I guess it would be like a Jiff saying "Warning. Peanut butter contains peanuts. Don't eat if you're allergic to peanuts," but ultimately it falls onto the individual to say, "You know what? I'm allergic to peanut butter, I better not eat that."

Because lets face it, if you're allergic to peanut butter and you eat it anyway because the jar didn't say "contains peanuts, dummy," it's not Jiff's fault. It's your's.

Bottom line: I'm not against a warning, but don't be stupid. If playing games might cause you to seize and die...then don't play games....

[pandaman]

warnings, definitely.  If there is doubt, or a known possibility of an issue then warn about it with a toggleable 'do not show again' option on game start up.  That both raises awareness to all and gives players a chance to minimise risk and helps with the lawsuit problem too.   

For any game developer to blanket avoid anything that may cause an issue is just not practical, it would pretty much stop them making anything 'just in case'.

[septemberWaves]

@Greenfire32 Whilst I can see what leads to that sort of mindset, it's very wrong. Perhaps back when computer games, and for that matter computers themselves, were fairly new and less integrated into daily life, it would've been entirely reasonable to say to people at risk of seizures that they should simply avoid using screens. But that's not a reasonable argument any more. It is nearly impossible to go through modern life without using a computer or a smartphone or something else with a digital screen. Entertainment is similar; most modern media (except books, which are quickly becoming digitized, and board games, which have been losing popularity for a long time) is digital.

By saying that people who are at risk of seizures should not be able to use technology, you are saying that they should be denied access to almost all modern forms of entertainment (and in fact, also denied access to almost all modern forms of communication - a necessity in life). It is not difficult for the developers of digital media to implement a text based warning, perhaps somewhere in the instructions or in the loading screen or somewhere else easily found, in order to allow these people to access digital media (which is almost all modern media) without being at risk. It is the same sort of situation as when the organizers of an event involving food may include lactose-free options in the menu so that lactose-intolerant guests are able to eat - although it is in fact even simpler, because a text-based warning requires far less effort than choosing a menu item.

Edited October 27, 2016 by eloquentJane

[EpicSpaceTroll139]

Is it not intuitive that making day and night go by at 100,000 speed will cause flashing?

The first time I did it out of map view was literally because I was bored and wanted to see the flashing.

Flickering screens after crashes and other glitches are kind of unexpected, so I understand having some kind of boilerplate warning for the game, but I would think it would be obvious that making the game spin you around very very fast would result in flashing.

Edited October 28, 2016 by EpicSpaceTroll139

[ZooNamedGames]

I haven't read all the comments but this is my thoughts on the issue:

It is a known factor and has been for decades that playing video games can induce seizures and that's even if the game doesn't have anything like flashes, rapidly changing images, etc. So, like all games, KSP, is no exception and is covered in that blanket. 

Regardless those with special medical conditions should research the materials they are purchasing; especially when they are under the above mentioned blanket. Now KSP does not have a special label about however with explosions, rocket engine exhausts being started and stopped repeatedly (especially during a new players munar landing). This game in theory already has enough to qualify as too much (in my mind at least). 

Lastly, having mentioned the two above points being said, playing a video game with epilepsy is like a person with a peanut allergy making PBJs; risky.

Edited October 28, 2016 by ZooNamedGames

[MaxPeck]

Steering vessels using the keyboard can lead to repetitive stress injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome.  Let's be sure to include warnings about that as well.

Sitting inactive at your computer performing long burns/maneuvers can lead to deep vein thrombosis.  There should be a pop-up warning every 90 minutes telling players to take a walk and the game should automatically pause.

Staring at high contrast video displays for long periods has been linked to chronic headaches and onset of migraines.  We should provide a warning for that also.

 

[Mjp1050]

First, how the heck did this issue get so polarized? The risk might be tiny, but then again, so is the solution.

I vote to add a text warning, but have the option to disable it. Those without epilepsy will find it annoying, like the tutorials that you get when starting a new game.

 

[Vanamonde]

Some posts in this thread have been edited. It would be really nice if we could disagree with each other without resorting to insults. 

[adsii1970]

I am going to add my two cents here...

After reading all the threads in this post, I agree wholeheartedly with @DoctorDavinci. It seems that there are many Americans who want to enjoy the benefits of life without any reciprocal responsibilities. I will say that I am an American, am 46, hold a Ph.D. in U.S. history with a third field of Foreign Policy. I teach at the university level and see the kind of behavior often that I see on this particular thread. Many people I encounter as students simply want to have what they want without any consequence or responsibility when things go not quite right.

As @DoctorDavinci has stated, any doctor worth their weight in water will tell epileptic patients to avoid anything that could trigger a seizure, such as strobe lights, video games, certain television games, etc. As unfair as it sounds, if you're epileptic and choose to play a game that has strobe like effects, then you're going against medical advice. No need to punish the game manufacturer because common sense was ignored.

I am a Type 2 Diabetic and once I was diagnosed and taught what to avoid, every piece of cheesecake I ate since that diagnosis is not on the doctor, the person who put the cheesecake out on the buffet bar, or even the person who made the cheesecake. It is on me to decide if eating the cheesecake is worth the health risks and resulting consequences. The same here - it is up to the end user - the consumer - to make the decision to play the game in spite of medical advice against it, should they have epilepsy.

At some time, everyone must take responsibility for their own well being. Would a small warning box at the start of a game be sufficient? Better yet, should Squad require a limited liability/no liability release to be signed and notarized before you're able to download the game? Or should we demand that people take responsibility for themselves and their own well-being?

[DoctorDavinci]

I question whether it is the responsibility of anyone to be required to warn people of what they should already be aware of ... Just another example of the nanny state

SJW's to the rescue