[1.9-1.10] Global Construction

[drhay53]

I'll just mention that it's already quite complex to get MKS set up off-world..... if GC is quite complex on top of that, I'm just not sure I see the benefit (for me personally). With MKS I already spend hours outside of KSP just trying to figure out what the heck I should do next..... to be quite honest I don't want to have to do the same thing with GC. But maybe I'm just stuck in the current MKS/EL model and failing to see how much more fun it could be. I don't know.

I just don't want too many more complex chains of development than what MKS already provides. Make the parts required for offworld construction difficult to produce or expensive to ship in; sure, I'm on board. But make GC too complex on top of that and you could make MKS+GC too intimidating. It's a fine balance.

[Temeriki]

The complexity gives a reason to use those MKS production chains, I mean whats the point of setting all this up when I can simply mine exotic and rare metals to make tons of funds and just launch large things with the "moar boosters" philosophy.  Im not saying ditch the existing prepackaged diy kit method, but add a way to make the kits offworld, just make it at least a semi pita so you weight the pro cons between shipping out kits or complete onsite.  I like the pre assembled ships concept, instead of using KIS to make my small rovers on site I can ship out a bunch of pre packed small man craft, hell I could pre assemble large parts of the base if I really wanted too.  But when your playing with life support mods and your looking at years to decades for transfer windows and transit times it would be nice to actually do something with all those offworld bases and their infrastructure, like build the next extensions entirely offsite.

[Ode of the mountain]

FYI There is a typo in the DIYKit.cfg file. Under description workshop is spelled wrong.

[Enceos]

I'm currently using EL to build DIY kits, I move them to a new site and use Ground Construction to deploy them. Works nicely.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Enceos

[allista]

9 hours ago, gamerscircle said:

I think, I found a bug?  It would seem that one of my "constructions" has a que that I cannot clear?  

http://imgur.com/NtaO1QN

I have attempted to open the construction window from all of the MKS structures, but I wasn't able to find the little red "X" to kill it?

Currently, when you switch to the vessel with the workshops ([>>] button), the workshop info labels become clickable, so you can directly summon the construction window of the workshop in question.

When you have opened the needed workshop window and see the kit under construction, you can push the "Stop" button to move it back to the queue, then you will have the "X" button to remove it from the queue.

6 hours ago, Ode of the mountain said:

FYI There is a typo in the DIYKit.cfg file. Under description workshop is spelled wrong.

Even better! If you look at the DIY Kit model itself, you may notice that "Handle with care!" is also misspelled 

That's the most typical typo of mine, when I'm typing fast: the next finger accidentally hits its button just before the previous does.

[allista]

It's a pleasure to read this argument, folks!

And it gives me much to think about.

This will sure help us to develop balanced architecture before actually implementing the meat of it.

[gamerscircle]

Hi @allista , I think I am following the your instructions, but the "Stalled" item doesn't appear to be associated with any Workshop.

 

Here are a few more screen shots to perhaps help?  I do have a "rocket" currently being constructed "Duna Resource Scanner" and that is working just fine, it is the "MFB Assm Spec Part" that I can't seem to clear from the que.    It has already been built, but perhaps GC got slightly confused because construction halted?  I am started from a different workshop?

http://imgur.com/a/iy0kP

[Terwin]

Thought: what if manufacturing DIY kits(off-kerbin) required MKS specialized parts equal to 80% of the mass of the kit plus Machinery for the other 20%, 2x Engineer skill hours and 0.5x Scientist hours?

Specialized parts are one of the more expensive things to create in MKS, Taking Refined exotics(Rare metals + Exoitic Minerals + Chemicals) and Silicon(Refined silica)

Having a bit of machinery in there also requires that you have those parts of the production chain in good order as well.

I could even see having an extra 10-50% colony supplies that do not actually go into the kit, but keep the workers happy while doing this unusually demanding work(and incidentally ensure that you are using the end result of every production chain except for fuels)

Might also require a distinct 'kit construction' bay in a 3.5m Tundra assembly module or a distinct 'Kit Assembly' module.

 

Of course this may mean that building kits off-planet will require MKS.

[Temeriki]

Maybe use a dual resource system with MM?  Maybe make it config selectable so you can still use the original style with or without mks, or something like MKS deep integration?  Without the MKS integration is uses your normal resource system, with it enabled is uses mks resource system including the various intermediary products.  Or @RoverDude could make it a config overwrite in mks like it was with EPL, that way you only have to manage one resource system and roverdude would worry about the mks balancing on his end.  Anyways no matter what you do keep on modding, and you do what you think is best, its your baby,

[allista]

1 hour ago, gamerscircle said:

Hi @allista , I think I am following the your instructions, but the "Stalled" item doesn't appear to be associated with any Workshop.

Here are a few more screen shots to perhaps help?  I do have a "rocket" currently being constructed "Duna Resource Scanner" and that is working just fine, it is the "MFB Assm Spec Part" that I can't seem to clear from the que.    It has already been built, but perhaps GC got slightly confused because construction halted?  I am started from a different workshop?

http://imgur.com/a/iy0kP

Now that's definitely a bug. Thank you for your thoroughness!

I'll investigate the matter.

[RoverDude]

The thought I had was that the DIYKit is made of specialized parts (basically what @Terwin said).  Then up to mods to determine how it gets there.  And to be honest, getting your stuff built for 10% of the mass (or whatever the DIYKit mass percentage is) is still an amazing deal.  Then leave it to mods (MKS, for example) to give you a non-Kerbin path to it.  Since it needs to (in my opinion) be a non-trivial operation, and we would not want something where the out-of-the-box version was significantly easier than the modded version (i.e. the friction between MKS and EL).

[gamerscircle]

3 hours ago, allista said:

Now that's definitely a bug. Thank you for your thoroughness!

I'll investigate the matter.

I am glad that I was able to help, next time I will supply a better description and screenshots to support, since I was new to the mod.  I was pretty sure I was just doing something wrong.

[allista]

1 hour ago, gamerscircle said:

I am glad that I was able to help, next time I will supply a better description and screenshots to support, since I was new to the mod.  I was pretty sure I was just doing something wrong.

BTW, does it go away if you try to start another construction in this workshop?

If you have a deployed Kit, it is safe to start/pause/stop its construction from any workshop, as all the work is saved inside the Kit.

[gamerscircle]

25 minutes ago, allista said:

BTW, does it go away if you try to start another construction in this workshop?

If you have a deployed Kit, it is safe to start/pause/stop its construction from any workshop, as all the work is saved inside the Kit.

It does not, that is why it took me to long to report this.  With that "stalled" construction, I thought it was specific to the MKS module that I was using, but after I went to each and every one and wasn't able to clear it.  That is when I started to ask.

The MKS PDU need to have an engineer in it for it to work and I did make sure that I put one in there an tried to get it back so that I could attempt to in fact cancel it, but couldn't.

Do You need any logs?

[allista]

33 minutes ago, gamerscircle said:

It does not, that is why it took me to long to report this.  With that "stalled" construction, I thought it was specific to the MKS module that I was using, but after I went to each and every one and wasn't able to clear it.  That is when I started to ask.

The MKS PDU need to have an engineer in it for it to work and I did make sure that I put one in there an tried to get it back so that I could attempt to in fact cancel it, but couldn't.

Do You need any logs?

Nah, there would be nothing in the logs. I think I know what's wrong. But it is really hard to reproduce, hence to test...

Tomorrow I may be able to compile a .dll with the fix, so that you could check if it's working.

[gamerscircle]

6 hours ago, allista said:

Nah, there would be nothing in the logs. I think I know what's wrong. But it is really hard to reproduce, hence to test...

Tomorrow I may be able to compile a .dll with the fix, so that you could check if it's working.

I was also able to get a screen capture of that message that is halting construction.

http://i.imgur.com/WMa9yVj.png

[mikerl]

On 2/7/2017 at 7:58 AM, CSE said:

KSP uses a physics bubble inertial frame that is moving at a constant velocity; the frame's velocity is chosen to keep the active vessel's velocity numbers fairly small in that frame, so that floating-point precision problems are minimized. This is one of the early krakensbane KSP fixes, I think. I don't know whether surface vessels get prioritized in KSP's choice of frame to use, so when the ground construction comes into physics range of an incoming active vessel, potentially the physics engine is actually moving the ground construction vessel towards the incoming flight rather than vice-versa. I don't know how the KSP APIs present this information at program level, but it's a possibility that would need to be considered when coding and testing.

@mikerl: did I interpret you correctly?

Yes the KSP API can do weird things at times particularly when loading a vessel as it enters physics range.  Although I was presenting possible experiments to figure out what is going on more than trying to understand how it's doing it.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 1:47 AM, allista said:

The delay is there: 3s after the workshop part is loaded.

But I didn't quite understand the second case you described. Could you explain a bit more?

Not sure how you have it coded, but upon nearing another workshop, the current vessel may be considered the active workshop if even for a moment using that speed value.  Of course the API could be using other values as CSE described and it is something that you may need to work around.  Such things are normally only seen when switching vessels or moving another closer.

[JeffreyCor]

This looks really interesting but is there any way to get it to work without Configurable Canisters? It's not listed as a required mod but not putting it in causes a loading failure on startup and I can't find anything in the Ground Constriction folder and I can spot as calling for something it.

[allista]

19 minutes ago, JeffreyCor said:

This looks really interesting but is there any way to get it to work without Configurable Canisters? It's not listed as a required mod but not putting it in causes a loading failure on startup and I can't find anything in the Ground Constriction folder and I can spot as calling for something it.

I'm sorry, but the core components -- the .dll and basic configuration -- are indeed required. I just forgot to update the OP.

If you don't want the game content of ConfigurableContainers you just have to remove the GameData/ConfigurableContainrs/Parts subfolder. Then GC will be happy with its dependency, and you will have none of CC's patches.

[JeffreyCor]

Great! I'll try that Thanks!

[Kaa253]

Has anyone else observed that the kits cost more than the fully resource stocked original ship before it is packed? For example;

1. in the VAB make a first ship which consists of a probe core and an empty specialised parts container
2. how much does that cost?
3. start a new second ship with a probe core and DIY kit and pack the first ship into the DIY kit
4. how much does that cost?
5. detach the kit from the probe core and then stick it straight back on again
6. how much does it cost now?

Edited February 13, 2017 by Kaa253

[Terwin]

2 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

Has anyone else observed that the kits cost more than the fully resource stocked original ship before it is packed? For example

Could be as much as 2x as I think my ~7-800K Duna base design had a > 1M DIY kit.

But as my current funds are in excess of 100M, it did not bother me at all.(a few large crates of commodities(Exotic Minerals and Rare metals) brought back from the Mun and Minmus, then recovered at 100% can do interesting things to your bank balance)

Question: is the Ore Smelter setting on the large ISRU from GC?  (it produces Material kits from ore, at a rate of ~30-40/hour?)

[Kaa253]

1 minute ago, Terwin said:

Question: is the Ore Smelter setting on the large ISRU from GC?  (it produces Material kits from ore, at a rate of ~30-40/hour?)

Yes it is. Remove ISRU_Patch.cfg from inside the GroundConstruction folder and it goes away.

[Terwin]

2 minutes ago, Kaa253 said:

Yes it is. Remove ISRU_Patch.cfg from inside the GroundConstruction folder and it goes away.

Good to know, looks like a good way to kick-start a base. (I had planned to take 40K material kits from Kerbin to Duna, but smelting ore would be much more convenient)

[RoverDude]

FYI, on the MKS side since it has other ways of making MatKits, the ore converter will not be present (though the Ore->MatKits option will likely re-manifest with MKS-Lite, similar to how MKS adjusts OSE Ore->MatKit converters).