KSP Multiplayer

[Rqti]

Guys I know about DMP its so hard to get to work and is half impossible to use.  I just want a functional multiplayer that works good

 

[IncongruousGoat]

11 minutes ago, Rqti said:

Guys I know about DMP its so hard to get to work and is half impossible to use.  I just want a functional multiplayer that works good

And I would like control over the weather. Doesn't mean I'm going to get it, or even that it's reasonably possible. The problem with multiplayer (well, the big one) is time warp. KSP gives you the ability to mess with the rate at which time passes, which means you either have to sync up time acceleration across an entire server (which is a mess), or do what DMP does, which isn't great either, seeing as you have to tediously sync up anyways if you want to get anything done. You could suggest throwing away time warp entirely... but then it would take hours just to go to the Mun. Going to other planets would be out of the question due to the IRL months it would take.

We (the KSP community) have been tossing around the idea of multiplayer for years now. Lots of us would like it-but that doesn't mean it's something that can easily be implemented.

[StupidAndy]

I have a sorta solution that might work for timewarp

everyone gets a month, 30 days or something, and they can timewarp all they want, but it stops at the end of the month for the other people to catch up, so when everyone catches up, it starts over, everyone gets another month, and another, and another

the problem I see is with planes, but I really don't care about them, so someone else can think of it, this was an idea mostly for career mode

oh! and stations, is someone has docked onto a docking port before you did, IE you are there at day 3, but they docked at day 2, then that docking port is taken until they move it away, so if you come back at day 4, but they left that docking port at day 3, then you dock at that port

Edited February 20, 2017 by StupidAndy
stations?

[Wjolcz]

22 minutes ago, Rqti said:

Guys I know about DMP its so hard to get to work and is half impossible to use.  I just want a functional multiplayer that works good

 

Well, DMP is as close as it gets to the MP many want so bad. And believe me it's not that good and fun as you'd imagine. As said above: time warp is the main issue. You can also try Telemachus/Houston. It's also multiplayer-ish except it works fine because one person is flying and one is the mission control.

[Wjolcz]

25 minutes ago, StupidAndy said:

I have a sorta solution that might work for timewarp

everyone gets a month, 30 days or something, and they can timewarp all they want, but it stops at the end of the month for the other people to catch up, so when everyone catches up, it starts over, everyone gets another month, and another, and another

the problem I see is with planes, but I really don't care about them, so someone else can think of it, this was an idea mostly for career mode

oh! and stations, is someone has docked onto a docking port before you did, IE you are there at day 3, but they docked at day 2, then that docking port is taken until they move it away, so if you come back at day 4, but they left that docking port at day 3, then you dock at that port

This still isn't paradoxproof. And it's not the classical multiplayer but some sort of multiverse with different timelines indirectly interacting with each other.

What if there's a station in 200x200km orbit, someone docks to it and you move it to 300x300km orbit? Does the game take the additional mass and CoG offset into account when that docking port is occupied or not? Because if it does then it's a nice way to grief (because that occupied docking port is locked, I assume) and if it doesn't then it's an amazing way to exploit it. Simply dock a 100mT ship to a 500kg ion probe, ask somebody to move it anywhere and you suddenly have the 100mT ship somewhere else in the system for the price of that Xenon fuel.

And if sbd is en-route to an asteroid and he/she has 50 days to go and you want to do the same but you have 60 days to go. You warp faster than that player and in RL time you get there faster even though they had less in-game time to go. Then you move it. What happens next?

I don't think people realize how many problems there can be in a multiplayer game that allows for time warping.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Veeltch

[nomercy4you]

I think the only way multiplayer works is synchronized time warp. And this should be pretty simple to implement.

Just check the state of the players if timewarp can be done (means that all players are in stable orbit and not under accelleration) and then let the player "vote" for timewarp.
For example one player can request to timewarp to next waypoint and then every other player gets a message where he or she can accept that warp.
Of course more players means more waiting time until everyone is ready in this szenario. But I think KSP will be played in co-op mode with some friends (2-10) so this shouldn't be to big of a deal and players can communicate how and when they want to warp.
I am imagining that playing KSP in multiplayer is like playing Factorio or Minecraft.

The other option is to disable time-warp completly and play it more like in an MMO style. But then we need better automation, so our ships can fly and do manoveurs while we are offline.
But then it is more a flight sim, cause going further than mun and minmus will take some time But you can fly with planes on Kerbin with others.

 

[Enceos]

There are better solutions for how Multiplayer would work with everyone happy. Here are my thoughts on MP where I propose a solution and answer questions about possible scenarios. Starting from my post on page 1 and ending with my post on page 2.

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Enceos

[sal_vager]

People have successfully used Telemachus to play collaboratively, I feel this would be a form of multiplayer far more in keeping with the spirit of KSP than dark multiplayer (especially with BDarmory)

[razark]

8 hours ago, sal_vager said:

It just isn't multiplayer yet.

No offense, but that article is three years old, and there's been virtually no information released about multi-player since it was announced it would be added.  Squad has had a habit of announcing things, and then quietly walking away from them.

Is there any more recent confirmation? 

 

1 hour ago, StupidAndy said:

...you are there at day 3, but they docked at day 2, then that docking port is taken...

But what If I'm there on day 3 before they're there on day 2?

 

6 minutes ago, nomercy4you said:

I think the only way multiplayer works is synchronized time warp.

I think this makes great sense.  I can only really see KSP being played by small group, not really anything more than 5 people or so, and multiplayer would have them doing activities together*, so a synchronized time warp works.

 

 

*If they're not, why bother with multiplayer?

[nomercy4you]

15 minutes ago, Enceos said:

There are better solutions for how Multiplayer would work with everyone happy. Here are my thoughts on MP where I propose a solution and answer questions about possible scenarios. Starting from my post on page 1 and ending with my post on page 2.

 

Well all the time bubble solutions can create paradox game states. Only synchronized warp can prevent them.

14 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

People have successfully used Telemachus to play collaboratively, I feel this would be a form of multiplayer far more in keeping with the spirit of KSP than dark multiplayer (especially with BDarmory)

Yes I think that is the right direction, but still I want to be able to dock with my friend "live". Or fly in formation etc.

I am happy that a squad member replied in this thread, but there have been a lot of talking about features and mp but nothing happened...

[Wjolcz]

11 minutes ago, razark said:

*If they're not, why bother with multiplayer?

Because people don't think about how it would actually look like and wanted it so bad in the past SQUAD just went all "Ok, ok. The multiplayer is coming. Calm down now."

Let's say that the sync warp (I'm assuming everyone warps together in one universe) would work fine. BUT it's still a lot of waiting for others to finish what they are doing (not to mention people who went AFK) and playing "together alone" since everyone occasionally meets each other during the docking to a local station and/or rescue missions. It's still not something one person managing all the flight couldn't do on their own. Think about someone driving a rover or flying halfway across a planet. These journeys can take ages.

I will keep saying that an action-filled MP (maybe even MMO) flight sim is still better unless someone makes me believe otherwise.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Veeltch

[Tex_NL]

7 minutes ago, razark said:

I think this makes great sense.  I can only really see KSP being played by small group, not really anything more than 5 people or so, and multiplayer would have them doing activities together*, so a synchronized time warp works.

This is indeed the absolute ONLY way KSP multiplayer can ever work.
A small group working together or against each other, that really doesn't mater as long as they are in constant communication so all time warps are organized and synchronized. The larger the group the bigger the chances one or more are uncooperative ruining the game for all others.

3 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

BUT it's still a lot of waiting for others to finish what they are doing

And that's why it can only work in a very small group of players.

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

Tis a funny thing what you find while waiting for a game to update, especially bearing in mind whats already posted above,   4 hours ago posted by sal on steam

Squad is committed to multiplayer.

The link is the same as the just not yet one , admittedly it's ancient but given the general acceptance around here  that KSP wont have MP anytime soon it seems a bit odd to be stating something seemingly a little different on Steam

For my part I've enjoyed some MP games and hated others. so although it'd be neat to share a game or a station build with others, it not being available  or even really possible in real time will never be a show stopper for me.

now I'm in trouble

 

[Enceos]

1 hour ago, nomercy4you said:

Well all the time bubble solutions can create paradox game states. Only synchronized warp can prevent them.

Give me a scenario of your paradox game state, I can't think of one.

[razark]

35 minutes ago, Enceos said:

Give me a scenario of your paradox game state, I can't think of one.

You warp to day 100 and dock to a space station.

Five minutes later, I warp to day 5, dock to the same station and deorbit it.

 

What is the state of your game at day 100?

[Enceos]

36 minutes ago, razark said:

You warp to day 100 and dock to a space station.

Five minutes later, I warp to day 5, dock to the same station and deorbit it.

 

What is the state of your game at day 100?

The answer is in this post.

On 1/13/2017 at 0:14 AM, Enceos said:

in my model each player has its own reference frame, not crafts. In map view he will see the same orbits as the Player who warped to future sees, but the position of the orbiting craft will be adjusted to the timeframe of the player who's looking at the screen, and will probably see a dimmed icon of the actual position of the craft in Player 2's universe. This way the Player 1 can launch and rendezvouz with the station of Player 2 who warped forward.

Imagine this scenario:

Player 2 constructed a station on Y1 D1 and warped forward to Y1 D5.

Player 1 launches a new module to the station on Y1 D3, performs all renezvouz maneuvers, during the final approach the game will load a non-colliable non-interactable shadow copy of the station in the state it looks in 2^nd Player's dimension. After Player 1 cancels the relative speed the game pops up a window which tells: "The target exists in Y1 D5, warp time forward for rendezvouz?". If Player 1 clicks "yes" the game warps forward and synchronizes the timeframe with Player 2, during this warp the relative position of the 1^st Player's vessel to the station will be frozen. After the warp he can dock with the station.

Ownership is not a griefing protection, it's just a marker that defines which crafts warp forward with the player, leaving a non-interactable shadow copy behind, and which don't. Synchronizing the timeframe with the Player who owns the craft will make it interactable.

 

[razark]

So a universe full of non-interactive objects?  Hrm...

 

You warp to day 100 again.  You now launch a space station into a geostationary orbit above KSC.

I'm on day 5.  I launch a station into a geostationary orbit above KSC.

Which station exists?  I'm on day 5, do I see a station that will not exist for 95 more days?

[Rqti]

Why cant you have something like some servers have gamemodes where a lobby of people or maybe a private lobby with you and your friends have to complete a task like build a plane that is 80 tons and get it to take off.  There could be an amount of time like 20 mins to complete it then each pilot would have a chance to take off their air craft while everyone else watches them do so.  It doesn't have to be just that challenge you could set up a system where you can make your own challenges if you want?  Just an idea.

[StrandedonEarth]

*disclaimer* I'm a family man, and as such I often have to go AFK suddenly and without warning for an indeterminate period of time. Therefore, I rarely play multiplayer anything, unless it's a local game with friends or my kids (schooling them in Starcraft, for instance). Even when I played MMO's such as SWG or WoW, I generally shied away from group missions. If I ever play another MMO, I may as well call myself "Lone Wolf"

That said, with the time warp issues, I can't really see how multiplayer would work in KSP, except as crew members of a single ship. Doing what, only Kraken knows. So what I'd really like to know is, what do people envision actually doing in a multiplayer version of KSP? Combat? Maybe they need to spin off "Kerbal Combat Program," where you get 5-10 minutes to build your fightingcraft and then enter battle on or above whatever planet/moon has been chosen as the arena.

What would you do in/with KSP-MP?

[W. Kerman]

This suggestion... has had little evolution over its many iterations.

I think KSP IN MULTIPLAYER could become a meme.

[Enceos]

3 hours ago, razark said:

So a universe full of non-interactive objects?  Hrm...

 

You warp to day 100 again.  You now launch a space station into a geostationary orbit above KSC.

I'm on day 5.  I launch a station into a geostationary orbit above KSC.

Which station exists?  I'm on day 5, do I see a station that will not exist for 95 more days?

Yes, you will see a shadow copy of the station, which exists in a time bubble 95 days ahead. If you approach that station's shadow copy above KSC and kill your relative velocity the game will ask if you want to warp rime forward 95 days to match time with the first player. The time warp and vessel/scene switch will be disabled if your current vessel clips into the shadow copy. During synchronizing time warp the relative position will be frozen.

I also answered this question in that thread, but with a surface base as an example.

This trick with time bubbles allows players to warp time independently without having to wait for each other. When players want to do something together, or interact with each-others vessels they will have to sync time. If two players are in the same scene the time warp will show a popup message under the TimeFrame GUI telling that a player X wants to warp time forward for Z y/d/h/min. The popup window will have a timer and [ok] / [no] buttons, with [ok] by default if the timer ends.

[razark]

So a universe full of non-interactive objects and things that aren't there.

[Enceos]

3 minutes ago, razark said:

So a universe full of non-interactive objects and things that aren't there.

Every object is interactive, you just have to warp time to the day where it exists. And that's done automatically on approach [just need to click the "Ok" button when the game asks].

[Wjolcz]

5 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

What would you do in/with KSP-MP?

Fly airplanes in formation and shoot each other without ever going into space. No time warp issues with that.

[natsirt721]

8 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

Fly airplanes in formation and shoot each other without ever going into space. No time warp issues with that.

War Thunder has you there.