[1.12.x] Near Future Technologies (September 6)

[Nertea]

@steve_v No need to come off so strong. I paged back a few times and found no indications of any bugs with this, nor are there any issues raised in the repository for either mod. This means I am unaware of the problem.

There was an issue some time back (probably around KSP 1.2) that had a similar problem, which is why incidentally you are looking at something called ModuleCoreHeatNoCatchup in the config. This was solved, it's possible that something similar is occurring again. 

The thermal code, particularly when loading, saving and timewarp occurs, is very difficult to work with. Please bear with me as this is quite some work to deal with.

The best way for you to help me is to give me a test case with 100% reproduction rate that involves a minimal recycle time (load, test, try again).

Edited February 19, 2019 by Nertea

[steve_v]

14 hours ago, Nertea said:

No need to come off so strong.

Apologies, I was a little frustrated that my limited playing time had become entirely debugging and save-editing time.
 

I have not so far been able to pin down exact reproduction steps, but here is a simplified test case. It's not exactly what I'm seeing in my career game, but it looks like the same behaviour and entails fewer mods a and a simpler vessel:

KSP Version: 1.5.1.2335

Installed Modules:

- B9PartSwitch v2.5.1
- CommunityResourcePack 1.0.0.0
- CommunityTechTree 1:3.3.6
- CryoTanks 1.0.3.0
- DeployableEngines 0.5.3
- DynamicBatteryStorage 2:1.3.3.0
- HyperEdit 1.5.8.0
- KerbalAtomics 1:0.5.3
- KerbalAtomics-NFECompatibility 0.5.3
- ModuleManager 4.0.2
- NearFutureElectrical 0.10.4
- NearFutureElectrical-Core 0.10.4

Start sandbox game and load quicksave #1.
Switch to space centre scene and hit "Warp to next morning".
Return to Untitled Space Craft via tracking station.
One of the reactors overheats and shuts down, core temperature having increased from ~3200K to ~3600K while unfocused.
The reactor then begins to cool as it should once the flight scene is loaded.

As far as I know reactors aren't simulated in the background, so where did the energy for that ~400K rise come from?
The effect appears to be compounded if there are multiple reactors and radiators on the vessel. The vessel in my career save, which has multiple reactors and radiators, seems to suffer core overheats even on reactors that are shut down, the severity subject to the part's CoreEnergy before it was unloaded.

Edited February 20, 2019 by steve_v

[dlrk]

@Nertea

Just wondering, are RPM/MAS IVAs planned for any of the newer near future spacecraft pods? The one in the Rhea pod is really nice.

[KSPNoob]

Quick question about the IVA controls, what does the Reserve Switch do as well as the Radio?  

Also is there a disarm parachutes switch I'm not seeing?

[DStaal]

I just want to post one of my favorite NFC crafts - which has made my life *so* much simpler:

Very simple in concept: An octo-core probe core (with a monoprop tank clipped into it's center - it fits exactly into the open area anyway), docking ports on each end, RCS, some extra batteries, and some storage docking on the sides.

But now suddenly my refuel tanks for my space stations don't need to worry about balancing mass, RCS, power, etc.  The launcher can have a probe core, and even be returnable with ease.  All it's delivering is three parts: The refuel tank, with a docking port on either side.  The launcher delivers it, then detaches, and lets two of these attach and dock back to the station.  (One can then be undocked and used for something else, if needed.

Edited February 28, 2019 by DStaal
Fixed link.

[RaiderMan]

image/craft blocked.

[DStaal]

Sorry about that.  I need to get a new SSL cert.

[lodestar]

On 2/2/2019 at 12:55 PM, Boamere said:

I made one for myself actually. Probably should have posted it here

 

Here it is: Beans

I'm not too sure how bays work with USI so It may not be 100% 

Thanks! Just one minor thing. The entry for the PPD-24 has a misplaced closing brace, so the config wasn't being applied at all.

1. //PPD-24 Itinerant Service Container
2. @PART[utility-pod-25]:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
3.    
4. }
5. {

[Nertea]

Ok people, so this neglected mod suite needs some updates. The art sucks in a lot of places I'm not going to remodel everything, but the temptation is large. There will be a kinda... stopgap improvement of some of the packs - timeboxed effort to improve textures. A small roadmap follows. Note that there are some questions in RED

NF Propulsion

• All model greys will be normalized with Restock standard palettes
• Fuel tank endcap texures are gross and look like raw sewage, fixes required
• Lithium foil tanks could use a treatment with the reflective shader
• Argon fuel tanks will get a revised coloration - going to try out some pseudo-reflective brushed aluminum looks for the "inner" tanks.
• Xenon tanks and colorations need some work to match the new Restock tanks
• Engine/fuel colour coding will get a revisions pass - Lithium needs its own unique colour (instead of sharing with Xenon), Argon is way too bright and inconsistent, and Xenon could use some tuneups

NF Construction

• Greys need normalizing within the mod and with standard palettes
• Fuel-containing trusses need work - matching what will be done with NF propulsion for new fuels
• New docking ports need to be brought up to the Restock port standards
• Replacement models for some stock assets will be removed, they will be handled as part of Restock

NF Electrical

• Batteries will be completely redone
• Capacitors will be completely redone
• Reactors and fuel elements will be color-normalized with Restock palettes
• The large 3.75m battery will be deprecated.

NF Solar

• Nothing will be retained, everything needs to be redone. This will take some months but it will be so much better

NF Spacecraft

• All model colours will be normalized with the Restock palette
• Some doors/hatches will be replaced with better ones
• Foil will become restock-standard-type
• Some renovation will be done on the monoprop engines, specifically the shrouds
• Monoprop engines will get new effects
• I really want to deprecate the monoprop tanks, can I do that please? They are unsalvageable and will be a lot of work to redo completely

NF Launch Vehicles

• Engines need a texture pass to even approach newer quality targets
• Effects need a not looking like garbage pass
• Better design language for fuel tanks will be implemented
• All model colours will be normalized with the Restock palette

NF Aero

• As the newest mod which targets plane part matching, nothing really needs to be changed. 

@steve_v sorry to have taken so long but I still haven't found a solution for your bug (or even consistent repros). I will keep looking.

[lordcirth]

6 minutes ago, Nertea said:

• The large 3.75m battery will be deprecated.

Is this because of the new one in Restock+?

• I really want to deprecate the monoprop tanks, can I do that please? They are unsalvageable and will be a lot of work to redo completely

Well, I can say I don't use them. I don't use MP engines much - they always seem worse than the LF ones, and it's not like we deal with the plumbing complexity in KSP.

 

[sturmhauke]

24 minutes ago, Nertea said:

NF Electrical

• The large 3.75m battery will be deprecated.

NF Spacecraft

• I really want to deprecate the monoprop tanks, can I do that please? They are unsalvageable and will be a lot of work to redo completely

I use these for a couple of things, but that's ok. My space station is a one-off for a completed challenge, and my shuttle is being overhauled anyway.

[dlrk]

@Nertea

Sent in a PR with an updated/working NFSpacecraftUSILifeSupport.cfg

[DStaal]

39 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I really want to deprecate the monoprop tanks, can I do that please? They are unsalvageable and will be a lot of work to redo completely

I use the 3.75m battery occasionally, since I don't know of any others.  (If Restock+ has one I'll probably switch to that - been waiting a bit before trying Restock.)  However - these I use on like every ship I build.  My standard low-orbit service stage is monoprop, using these tanks and engines.  I haven't seen any other monoprop tanks worth looking at.

[lordcirth]

5 minutes ago, DStaal said:

I use the 3.75m battery occasionally, since I don't know of any others.  (If Restock+ has one I'll probably switch to that - been waiting a bit before trying Restock.)  However - these I use on like every ship I build.  My standard low-orbit service stage is monoprop, using these tanks and engines.  I haven't seen any other monoprop tanks worth looking at.

What about using a fuel switcher mod with normal tanks? Also, why use MP? I've always seen them be worse and more expensive than LF.

Edited March 8, 2019 by lordcirth

[DStaal]

5 minutes ago, lordcirth said:

What about using a fuel switcher mod with normal tanks? Also, why use MP? I've always seen them be worse and more expensive than LF.

A: I prefer these to the normal tanks.    (Though that is an option - if I could sort out which fuel switcher is working with my normal tanks at the moment...  I run enough mods that it's not entirely stable, as they all try.  If I stick to the basics, there's no problem.)

B: Low-orbit service stages for me typically need ~300 dv or less for orbital maneuvers, and RCS for docking.  Any engine and tank typically gets me the needed dv, but the monoprop lets me save on *also* having to carry monoprop for RCS.  (Heck, the one common ship in my current career that's not using one of the monoprop tanks from this pack is using a service fuel tank from this pack - emptied of fuel and oxidizer, just using monoprop.)  If I go out of near-Kerbin orbit it starts to make sense to use some other fuel again - and I tend to use either nuclear or ion engines then.  (Landers get Lf/Ox engines again, typically.)

I also tend to think of monoprop engines as more able to be restarted/reused in space, as a personal take on things without using Engine Ignitor.

[Nertea]

29 minutes ago, DStaal said:

I use the 3.75m battery occasionally, since I don't know of any others.  (If Restock+ has one I'll probably switch to that - been waiting a bit before trying Restock.)  However - these I use on like every ship I build.  My standard low-orbit service stage is monoprop, using these tanks and engines.  I haven't seen any other monoprop tanks worth looking at.

Restock+ has a considerably better 3.75m battery.  I'd like to move maintenance of those parts there. 

What are your requirements for monoprop tanks? If I need to keep some it would be good to pare down the set. For example, the smallest 2.5m one is definitely going away as it is a stock part replacement in all but name (same size, price, capacity), and the Restock one is leaps visually better. Restock+ will also eventually include something in the same footprint as the smallest 3.75m one, so that's on the chopping block. So, out of the remaining 3x lengths of 1.25ms, 2x lengths of 2.5m and 2x lengths of 3.75m... what can I kill in your view?

 

[Friznit]

I have been using the NF monoprop tanks a fair amount but I'm more than happy adapt to Restock+ in the interests of reducing the level of effort maintaining separate mods.  To be fair, I don't tend to use the longer ones.  They're mostly used for small landers and large probes before I get to more advanced engines and fuel types.

[NHunter]

I personally use flat 3.75m on motherships to store extra monoprop for landers. And it's tweakscaled to 7.5m version on my Extraplanetary Launchpad bases to fuel up aforementioned motherships or anything else I build there. Don't think I've ever used any other monoprop tanks outside of those you can enable on LV-95-6 cluster.

[Tyko]

2 hours ago, Nertea said:

I really want to deprecate the monoprop tanks, can I do that please? They are unsalvageable and will be a lot of work to redo completely

Yep, I tried them a few times and they're neat, but there are other options. In a way I wish the big MP engines were flipped back to LFO because I'd get more use out of them.

2 hours ago, Nertea said:

NF Launch Vehicles

• Engines need a texture pass to even approach newer quality targets
• Effects need a not looking like garbage pass
• Better design language for fuel tanks will be implemented
• All model colours will be normalized with the Restock palette

If you added a Saturn V texture for 5m tanks and a new engine mount you could take a whack at another big chunk of MH.  Just saying  

[scottadges]

2 hours ago, Nertea said:

this neglected mod suite needs some updates.

So cool, it's good to see you have a holistic view of these mods.

You may not necessarily be thinking this, but I can envision a sort of "mega-mod" with NF / SSPRx / RS+ as a foundation that makes KSP look amazing and really expands functionality beyond the base game. Truly must-have mods (which they already basically are!).

Anyway, just glad to see NF getting some updates and aligning with RS/RS+. I'm confident you'll pull this all together and spend the time to get it right. 

 

[Freshmeat]

This might be the time to add that I really appreciate NF construction as the base for most of my interplanetaries. I am a sucker for those trusses, and the texture getting a pass would be awesome.

[RaiderMan]

well, this explains why the 30 unit monoprop fuel tanks are marked as depreciated now..

[Nertea]

Ok based on comments, unless there's a really good reason, I will soft-deprecate all the NFS monoprop tanks in the next update. 

 

1 hour ago, scottadges said:

You may not necessarily be thinking this, but I can envision a sort of "mega-mod" with NF / SSPRx / RS+ as a foundation that makes KSP look amazing and really expands functionality beyond the base game. Truly must-have mods (which they already basically are!).

 

I always think about that! Everything I build is designed to work together to build stuff I want to build, and have it look pretty. Once I'm done I'll actually play KSP.

1 hour ago, Tyko said:

If you added a Saturn V texture for 5m tanks and a new engine mount you could take a whack at another big chunk of MH.  Just saying  

Lol you wish

 

 

[theJesuit]

1 minute ago, Nertea said:

Once I'm done I'll actually play KSP.

So many mod developers feel that way.  Too right.  I'm just worried that I'll get itchy feet waiting for 1.7.

Thankyou for enjoying your work

Peace.

[scottadges]

You should play the game more then along the way! 

13 minutes ago, Nertea said:

soft-deprecate all the NFS monoprop tanks

Is soft-deprecating like they're still in the game but hidden? Just wondering, what that would look like?