[1.3] Orion Drive TD Edition

[TiktaalikDreaming]

3 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Played arround a bit with Orion drive,  they allow the construction of SSTI (Single Statge To interstellar)

The Stellerator fits realy well with the Orion, added a few Static radiators, Fusion Pellet tanks, Magnetic nozzles and few Arcjet RCS for maneuvering.

 

That may be the first use of the term SSTI.  Love it.

You probably don't want to hear my musing of whether I can get the code to apply damage effects to parts that stick out past the pusher plate shadow.    Unless I also mention that my chances of coding that are so close to zero, I can't describe it using double floats in a way that isn't zero.

[Mandella]

On 5/2/2017 at 6:03 PM, TiktaalikDreaming said:

Yeah, the problem with sticking it in the traditional nodes, is it's not really related to nuclear thermal as for how the propulsion works.  And another issue is that a lot of the research that made it possible was weapons research, not vehicle.  It's very tempting to make it's own node (or two actually, one for the suspension systems, and one for the nukes).  I've never messed with the tech trees though.  Still, doesn't look disastrously hard.

The thing with the Orion is that it is, relatively speaking, kinda low tech, which means it should go pretty early in the tech tree, IMHO. Which would *really* change the flow of any game using it -- not that that's a bad thing!

It also depends on whether you think whatever political system Kerbals adhere to could handle the fallout (ha ha) from surface launching these babies.

[FreeThinker]

4 hours ago, Mandella said:

The thing with the Orion is that it is, relatively speaking, kinda low tech, which means it should go pretty early in the tech tree, IMHO. Which would *really* change the flow of any game using it -- not that that's a bad thing!

From a historical perspective, yes it is true, but that is not always the best guide for game balance. I prefer to look it more in terms of capabilities, what range of mission does it allow you to do?

@TiktaalikDreamingTherefore I would recommend it to put the 10m Pusher plate + matching parts in the "Experimental Nuclear Propulsion" CTT tech node (the one with the exploding icon) . This technode is ideal as it requires Efficient nuclear propulsion and Experimental rocketry (the end of the chemical rocket tree)

, the bigger 80 foot version should be put in the exotic nuclear propulsion, and allow it to use 1 Mega Ton Fusion bombs

Edited May 5, 2017 by FreeThinker

[TiktaalikDreaming]

1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

From a historical perspective, yes it is true, but that is not always the best guide for game balance. I prefer to look it more in terms of capabilities, what range of mission does it allow you to do?

@TiktaalikDreamingTherefore I would recommend it to put the 10m Pusher plate + matching parts in the "Experimental Nuclear Propulsion" CTT tech node (the one with the exploding icon) . This technode is ideal as it requires Efficient nuclear propulsion and Experimental rocketry (the end of the chemical rocket tree)

, the bigger 80 foot version should be put in the exotic nuclear propulsion, and allow it to use 1 Mega Ton Fusion bombs

I can see both sides of this.  The nuclear fission technology maturity actually does need to be quite high for the pulse units for the Orion.  So I'll be aiming a bit more towards @FreeThinker's idea of having it a bit further along the tree.  As a comparison, remember they were doing the science for this when they were flying Gemini/Mercury and doing late stage engineering on the Saturn.  The science for rockets was worked out decades earlier (sort of).  So, realistically, (assuming development continued) I would expect working Orions no earlier than the 90s.  A few tests earlier, sure, but by no means a mature technology you could put crew onto.  Working Nuke thermo rockets were much earlier, because they're basically a thermal rocket, using fission for heat.  Yeah, they're more complex than using an electric heater to heat the hydrogen, but it's rocket tech mixed with fission reactor tech.

Having a critical, but not run-away chain reaction fission reactor, as needed for power plants and NTRs is actually simpler (although as demonstrated several times, involving a bit of a balancing act, that can go wrong) than designing something that's passive until you want it to be dramatically non-passive, and shrink to article to 140kg, and then also work out how to direct the majority of the energy through a tungsten propellant.  EG: That stuff is still highly classified.

BUT

If anything, I'll be placing the 86foot earlier on the tech tree.  Big Orions are easier to build, if much more expensive in materials.  Pulse units, being separate parts can have their own slots in the tech tree.  And I don't promise to never include interstellar grade fusion pulse units.

[FreeThinker]

I rethinked the SSTI, presenting the Orion Deadalus:

Operation is simple, Launch directly towards the target star, turn the ship and switch to Daedalus propulsion and accelerate until half of delta V is spend. The Orion pusher plate serves as a shield and for planetary maneuvering once we arrive at the target star

.

Edited May 5, 2017 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

@TiktaalikDreaming Some observations om the Orion Mod:

- The description of the UKAF Nuclear Pulse Magazine does not match the name of the parts

- When spending bombs, the vessel does not get any lighter, meaning it will be less efficient as it should be

- When loading a vessel with Orion, it loses all magazine configuration

- Just above the atmosphere, bombs appear to explode instantly when aimed at the planet

- At KSP startup, I see a lot of exception logged related to this mod

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by FreeThinker

[TiktaalikDreaming]

1 minute ago, FreeThinker said:

@TiktaalikDreaming Some observations:

- The description of the UKAF Nuclear Pulse Magazine does not match the name of the parts

- When spending bombs, the vessel does not get any lighter, meaning it will be less efficient as it should be

- When loading a vessel with Orion, it loses all magazin configuration

- Just above the atmosphere, bombs appear to explode instantly when aimed at the planet

- Should does not appear to have any effect, perhaps just remove it

 

 

 

I keep editing then accidentally over-writing the descriptions again.  It's a fairly typical error for me.  I know about it and will fix it in the next update if I don't stuff it again.

I've never so much as looked at the code that drops the mass of the magazines except to note it exists.  I'll take a look and see if it actually does anything vs has some thoughts and comments.  And check (if it does something) that it's using the current vessel part references to actually function.

"When loading a vessel with Orion, it loses all magazin configuration" Do you mean the selection of which pulse units are active vs killed?  If so, I don't know that there's any easy solution for that.

There's definitely something really weird going on just at the edges of the atmosphere.  I'm currently messing with various bits of the code to try to isolate what's causing it.  Also, sometimes I get, not just one instant pulse unit, but what seems like about 10 all going off in a single burst.  You can actually see that happening in the first large pulse of Kottabos' youtube video.  The 15kt pulse units are strong, but they're not THAT strong.

"Should does not appear to have any effect, perhaps just remove it"  clarity required.   Probably typo fixin.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

Updated to 1.0.4

May or may not have fixed some issues with weird bomb results in edge cases by removing the code that attempted to figure out if the vessel would be too close to the fireball effect of the pulse unit.  The way the oddities manifested, with over-effectiveness just outside the atmosphere, changing frames of reference, and at very low altitude led me to believe this part of the code may have been at fault.  I didn't quite have any smoking gun level evidence, but outputting variables it used suggested it certainly wasn't doing what it should have been doing.  So, that's removed for now.  Which means you can use Orions for braking in an atmosphere again.

More work on the Staurn V/Jool V.  Updated the F-1/K-1 rocket with the new mesh.  Texturing not yet done, cos I had too much gardening to do.  It has some basics, but it's primarily just blocking in different materials.  And no, it won't stay quite that green.

Tidied up descriptions for the Orion engine pieces

Went through all the parts and adjusted cost, entryCost, and techRequired.

I've gone with nuclearPropulsion as the node for all the pulse units, but heavyLanding for the engines themselves.  All the other parts got put into suitable nodes as well.  

There's now a small CTT Module Manager cfg to adjust that to improvedNuclearPropulsion for the pulse units, and adjust some of the other parts for balance.

This does not include a fix for adjusting mass as bombs are spent.

 

 

EDIT: Dammit, just noticed I've called the 10m Orion a "33 Meter" Orion instead of "33 foot"

Edited May 7, 2017 by TiktaalikDreaming

[EnriqueBNew]

I love your mod!, I have New Horizons installed and I think it is utile to go to Eeloo and Vanor.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

On 06/22/2017 at 9:14 AM, EnriqueBNew said:

I love your mod!, I have New Horizons installed and I think it is utile to go to Eeloo and Vanor.

OK. Can't guess anymore. Utile?

I'm just not sure if I should be answering some question.

[damerell]

I know this is a bit "how long is a piece of string" - but other than lacking the atmospheric performance nerf, how does this differ from the USI Orion mod, please?

[TiktaalikDreaming]

7 hours ago, damerell said:

I know this is a bit "how long is a piece of string" - but other than lacking the atmospheric performance nerf, how does this differ from the USI Orion mod, please?

OK, I'll bite.  But first, both are simplified models.  You choose which suits you more.

This mod aims at an approximately realistic rendition of the 10m and 86f Orions designed by General Atomics for USAF.  It's always aimed to model the pulse nature of the propulsion.  Roverdude's mod spends less time trying to model the pulses, and uses animation and custom emitters to display what looks a bit like an Orion drive running.  So, RD's system will be nicer on your craft.  When I tried it out (which was fairly early in it's development), the exhaust was,...um... colourful, and didn't cause damage to other craft.  This mod's "exhaust" is an explosion effect, and it will destroy and/or damage things.  RD's mod is generally, all the way through, more kerbal.  The look of the parts is more kerbal.  And the way it functions is a tad more kerbal.  It also has a Medusa engine, which is not to be sneezed at.

The sizes are different.  This mod aims to have 2.5m parts as the central spine, and is a bit over 7m as a pusher plate size for the 10m Orion.  Roverdude aimed at a 5m main size.  Neither are full scale.  Although, after I get some things worked out in the code for this, I'm intending a RO+RSS patch that would rescale this mod to human scale.

I recommend trying both.  It won't bite.

[Whirligig Girl]

Does anyone else get very strong, almost gamebreaking lag with this mod? The game pauses every second. Seems to only happen when you're using the pulse cartridges with the extra bombs.

Edited January 19, 2018 by GregroxMun

[TiktaalikDreaming]

26 minutes ago, GregroxMun said:

Does anyone else get very strong, almost gamebreaking lag with this mod? The game pauses every second. Seems to only happen when you're using the pulse cartridges with the extra bombs.

Yep. There's some very non optimised code I need to look at once I figure out c# a bit more.

It didn't use to be this bad, so I strongly suspect it's something I added in.  But I also still need to rewrite some modules as currently, they can't adjust mass as nukes are used.  And not dropping 0.1 tonnes of the craft mass for each pulse does mess with the Delta V.

I was going to look at optimising code after the switch to a part module, but it is probably more annoying than the lack of mass change.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

The module for this are not compatible with 1.4.X, nor is it a simple recompile.  I currently don't know how long it will be until a working 1.4 edition will be available.

[magnemoe]

On 17.3.2018 at 6:14 AM, TiktaalikDreaming said:

The module for this are not compatible with 1.4.X, nor is it a simple recompile.  I currently don't know how long it will be until a working 1.4 edition will be available.

Good luck, this mod look awesome. 

[FreeThinker]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:14 AM, TiktaalikDreaming said:

The module for this are not compatible with 1.4.X, nor is it a simple recompile.  I currently don't know how long it will be until a working 1.4 edition will be available.

What is exactly the problem? Will it not recompile? or it does the recompile  not function in KSP 1.4.1?

Perhaps its an idea to integrate the source code of Tac.lib into the USAOrion object? Or replace it completely by a  KSP stock menu

Edited March 24, 2018 by FreeThinker

[TiktaalikDreaming]

37 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

What is exactly the problem? Will it not recompile? or it does the recompile  not function in KSP 1.4.1?

Perhaps its an idea to integrate the source code of Tac.lib into the USAOrion object? Or replace it completely by a  KSP stock menu

There's a few reasons to look at rewriting how the modules interact already, like that it not being a part module means it can't adjust mass.  I need to write up some basic ways for things to interact then grab the existing code and make that into the new frame work.

The code does compile.  It just doesn't do anything.  . I should look at why.  When I have time.

[GrandProtectorDark]

@TiktaalikDreaming Sorry to revive this thread. But after 4 months from when you last posted, I'm dying to know if this mod is still on your radar or if i should consider it truly dead?

[TiktaalikDreaming]

4 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

@TiktaalikDreaming Sorry to revive this thread. But after 4 months from when you last posted, I'm dying to know if this mod is still on your radar or if i should consider it truly dead?

It's more in a coma. I need the time to learn to code modules and then rewrite the way it interacts with the game. The logic sections can then be lifted out and put into the new framework. This c# stuff isn't coming easy to me though.

[GrandProtectorDark]

Just now, TiktaalikDreaming said:

It's more in a coma. I need the time to learn to code modules and then rewrite the way it interacts with the game. The logic sections can then be lifted out and put into the new framework. This c# stuff isn't coming easy to me though.

Aha, Thank you. I really loved this mod. I find it far more fun to use this version than Roverdudes not-so-realistic orion drive. So it's good to hear that the mod isn't truly dead. 

Well, I do hope it gets done sooner than later, but I can't really make things go faster. Rushed content is bad content. Good stuff takes time. 

[damerell]

22 minutes ago, GrandProtectorDark said:

Aha, Thank you. I really loved this mod. I find it far more fun to use this version than Roverdudes not-so-realistic orion drive.

Quite so. Of course RD can do as he pleases with his own mods, etc, but I think the very idea of "balancing" Orion against other propulsion is a somewhat quixotic endeavour. Someone who uses an Orion mod expects something ludicrously effective, just as (say) if I use the "Grim Reaper 2000 Lethal Extreme Difficulty" life support mod I might be disappointed if it can't kill kerbals.

[g777gun]

Hello. Will this mod be fixed for KSP. Because I really want to use it. Main reason is because its realistic. 

 

[TiktaalikDreaming]

1 hour ago, g777gun said:

Hello. Will this mod be fixed for KSP. Because I really want to use it. Main reason is because its realistic. 

 

The answer is hopefully. There's quite a bit of coding work to do. At the moment, I'm fairly sure it can all be converted to a modern ksp set of part modules, but won't really know until I'm further in to the work.

It's somewhat delayed due to me not having enough time to work on it and not having the faintest clue what I'm doing.

[damerell]

I also would be delighted to see this return. It's not in any sense your fault, but what I was doing in KSP is kind of on hold absent a sensible Orion drive mod.