totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[Nuke]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

I think you could just build in bar on a track that would sweep the panel with pressurized air periodically. Ideally you’d only send people out when absolutely necessary. 
 

Im not a huge fan of nuclear on earth (its fine, just expensive) but for colonies on the moon and mars it seems ideal, certainly for base loads. Id have to do some math but the energy density of nuclear fuel has to beat solar panels. 

really depends on the type of colony. if its just an agricultural settlement then yea solar is probibly fine. an industrial base or large scale colony probibly needs the high output and reliable baseload. no matter what you do you are going to need to send a huge payload to mars.

[darthgently]

16 minutes ago, Nuke said:

really depends on the type of colony. if its just an agricultural settlement then yea solar is probibly fine. an industrial base or large scale colony probibly needs the high output and reliable baseload. no matter what you do you are going to need to send a huge payload to mars.

I’m thinking that ag on Mars will be as sophisticated and energy intensive as many industrial processes on earth.  I mean imagine growing 100 acres of food crops in Antarctica but you additionally have to provide very strong  illumination, import/create and maintain your soil, manage microbial life, recycle the water and nutrients. So lots of power involved just in providing the environment, then you have planting, harvesting, and processing.

[SunlitZelkova]

@Ultimate Steve Considering SpaceX is the only organization with an intention to build a colony on Mars that is more substantial than anything before (albeit with few details at the time given focus on Starship itself), you might continue discussion in this thread. There’s also one called A City on Mars, but that was more about habitation and economic factors in a Mars colony.

Also, you might find this article interesting: http://spaceflighthistory.blogspot.com/2016/12/energy-from-space-department-of.html?m=1

Summarized DOE/NASA study of SBSP from the late 70s. They envisioned 60x 10x5 kilometer satellites and 60x receiver antenna spaced approximately 50 kilometers apart stretching across the US at the 35th parallel.

60x such satellite would have been capable of providing 300 gigawatts of power. That’s one quarter of what the entire present day US energy grid can produce, and thus far more than what a Mars colony probably needs, so fewer satellites would be needed at Mars. Dust storms might have deleterious effects on the transmission of the power if microwaves are used though; didn’t Opportunity lose communications because of one? I’m not sure how its communications system’s transmissions would compare with an SBSP satellite’s though.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

really depends on the type of colony. if its just an agricultural settlement then yea solar is probibly fine. an industrial base or large scale colony probibly needs the high output and reliable baseload. no matter what you do you are going to need to send a huge payload to mars.

Totally. Im sure it would start with solar and maybe phase in modular nuclear reactors as it grew. I did a little napkin math using US per capita energy consumption and estimate it would take 5x 300mw modular nuclear reactors to serve a million people. It would take 4.5km^2 of solar panels to provide the same amount on earth, but since irradiance is lower on mars you'd need more like 10km^2. Thats about 250 block 3 starship launches. Im not sure how much a modular nuclear reactor weights minus the water but even if you if took 3 launches per reactor thats only 15 for the same output. It very well may be that solar efficiency gets much better by the time we're building a colony on mars but I don't think it will be 16 times better. Maybe if you produce the glass, substrate and frame material in situ and just ship the PV as a film? Also like @darthgently says you might need much more consumption on mars than you do on earth for crops, heating, and air and water filtration, doubling or maybe tripling those numbers. 

[Nuke]

3 hours ago, darthgently said:

I’m thinking that ag on Mars will be as sophisticated and energy intensive as many industrial processes on earth.  I mean imagine growing 100 acres of food crops in Antarctica but you additionally have to provide very strong  illumination, import/create and maintain your soil, manage microbial life, recycle the water and nutrients. So lots of power involved just in providing the environment, then you have planting, harvesting, and processing.

i think were pretty much just talking grow lights. supplemental to natural light unless you need to grow underground. you can hack your grow cycles if you give them an artificially short night cycle and keep the lights on most of the time. running the lights low during day to supplement natural daylight, and also charging batteries so you can run them for at least some portion of the night.  you also have to power water reclamation, but if you use aeroponics or gmo crops, you can reduce water usage greatly. life support is your other power requirement, but plants help with scrubbing co2 and producing oxygen, so you wont be running life support at full capacity. only other thing would be machinery but an ag colony can just to it the old way, and the low gravity should help make the work easier.

Edited 18 hours ago by Nuke

[tater]

Extended fairing for FH:

[darthgently]

3 hours ago, Nuke said:

i think were pretty much just talking grow lights. supplemental to natural light unless you need to grow underground. you can hack your grow cycles if you give them an artificially short night cycle and keep the lights on most of the time. running the lights low during day to supplement natural daylight, and also charging batteries so you can run them for at least some portion of the night.  you also have to power water reclamation, but if you use aeroponics or gmo crops, you can reduce water usage greatly. life support is your other power requirement, but plants help with scrubbing co2 and producing oxygen, so you wont be running life support at full capacity. only other thing would be machinery but an ag colony can just to it the old way, and the low gravity should help make the work easier.

While the symbiosis between animals and plants is easily recognized the other members of this symbiotic structure are often second thoughts.  And this blindspot affects GMO directions and innovation in ag like hydro and aeroponics.  Namely symbiotic microbes and fungi.  These play roles we are only beginning to really understand.

I would not assume that a multigenerational settlement would be viable without the entire shebang.

For a solid foundation for a permanent settlement I’d like actual rich living soil to grow food in even if in a lava tube.  Because the point is life off world.

Edited 14 hours ago by darthgently

[darthgently]

Hmmm. Bummer.  Waiting for better verification, but this is probably true

 

Edited 13 hours ago by darthgently

[TheKspEngineer]

*insert angry rambling about starhsip launching (in Europe) at Monday 23:00 while school*

[Deddly]

1 hour ago, TheKspEngineer said:

*insert angry rambling about starhsip launching (in Europe) at Monday 23:00 while school*

Your schoolwork must be intense if you are still there at 23:00 

Spoiler

Don't worry, I know what you meant and I'm just playing with words. 

 

[Nuke]

8 hours ago, darthgently said:

While the symbiosis between animals and plants is easily recognized the other members of this symbiotic structure are often second thoughts.  And this blindspot affects GMO directions and innovation in ag like hydro and aeroponics.  Namely symbiotic microbes and fungi.  These play roles we are only beginning to really understand.

I would not assume that a multigenerational settlement would be viable without the entire shebang.

For a solid foundation for a permanent settlement I’d like actual rich living soil to grow food in even if in a lava tube.  Because the point is life off world.

you can farm live soil. it might be more involved than it is on earth since you are washing out perchlorates and introducing compost and bacterial cultures, maybe a few earthworms (insert shai hulud reference here) and imported (or locally "manufactured") fertilizers. doing your aeroponic food crops mostly for food production, and the wastes of that go into soil production. then you can expand to crops that need soil. and you are always making more soil as a byproduct of food production.

you eventually get to the point where you are importing livestock, probibly not for meat initially, less pigs and cows and more goats (eat anything and produce milk and fertilizer) and sheep (human populations require textiles). once the colony is thriving then you can think about pigs and chickens. though in the expanse they seem to be at the point where they have cattle.

[tater]

in progress

[darthgently]

3 hours ago, Nuke said:

you can farm live soil. it might be more involved than it is on earth since you are washing out perchlorates and introducing compost and bacterial cultures, maybe a few earthworms (insert shai hulud reference here) and imported (or locally "manufactured") fertilizers. doing your aeroponic food crops mostly for food production, and the wastes of that go into soil production. then you can expand to crops that need soil. and you are always making more soil as a byproduct of food production.

you eventually get to the point where you are importing livestock, probibly not for meat initially, less pigs and cows and more goats (eat anything and produce milk and fertilizer) and sheep (human populations require textiles). once the colony is thriving then you can think about pigs and chickens. though in the expanse they seem to be at the point where they have cattle.

Agreed overall with the addition of insects and mostly ground birds like chickens, ducks, and quail.  Eggs are an amazing food and these birds can convert bugs to a complete protein like magic by laying an egg.  But they need a rich diet from rich soil to do this well

[darthgently]

 

[Nuke]

1 hour ago, darthgently said:

Agreed overall with the addition of insects and mostly ground birds like chickens, ducks, and quail.  Eggs are an amazing food and these birds can convert bugs to a complete protein like magic by laying an egg.  But they need a rich diet from rich soil to do this well

that should come in handy should someone's science experiment escape.