kerbiloid Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 On 4/20/2021 at 7:51 PM, sh1pman said: Maybe they can buy a Starship service to grab Nauka and boost it to another inclination. Expand Any flown Starships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 (edited) On 4/20/2021 at 8:03 PM, kerbiloid said: Any flown Starships? Expand Any flown “Naukas”? Also, depends on how you define “flown”. Edited April 20, 2021 by sh1pman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 On 4/20/2021 at 8:09 PM, sh1pman said: Depends on how you define “flown”. Expand To space, there and back again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Look, if Russia want to try and build their own space station, nobody's stopping them. But it'll be expensive less capable than a combined effort. Meanwhile the US and its continuing international partners will just put up a couple of outfitted Starships, NBD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXBLOX Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Quote Because there are cities, rigs, industry, woods, seaports, and sea ways there. Expand All of which an unmanned satellite can watch for much less Δv and money. There's no benefit to having a near-polar station, as far as I can see. I doubt the funding will ever get through for a fully indigenous station. More likely no station is built for a while. On 4/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, RCgothic said: Meanwhile the US and its continuing international partners will just put up a couple of outfitted Starships, NBD. Expand I wanna see what size inflatable module can fit in that payload fairing. Probably yuge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunlitZelkova Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 On 4/20/2021 at 4:16 AM, SOXBLOX said: I know this region is heating up geopolitically, but what benefits are there to having a station in a polar orbit? If you wanna see the poles, just use a satellite, right? Yeah, I'll believe this stuff when I see it. Until then, dream on, Dmitri Olegovich. Expand Earth sensing experiments are performed on the ISS. They might plan to do the same thing on the new station, but want to pass over all of Russia. This isn't a new thing, a polar orbit was considered for the MKBS space station in the 70s too. Or maybe the cosmonauts are human shields against US ASAT weapons, and it will actually be equipped with different reconnaissance equipment lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/20/2021 at 8:09 PM, sh1pman said: Any flown “Naukas”? Expand Nauka exists. Any ever existing Starships? Why should they use a blueprint rocket which doesn't exist and who knows if will ever do? On 4/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, RCgothic said: Look, if Russia want to try and build their own space station, nobody's stopping them. But it'll be expensive less capable than a combined effort. Expand Any American cargo ever delivered by Starship? Any non-KSP Starship flight ever? On 4/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, RCgothic said: Meanwhile the US and its continuing international partners will just put up a couple of outfitted Starships, NBD. Expand Currently all international partnership is about Falcons. On 4/20/2021 at 9:15 PM, SOXBLOX said: All of which an unmanned satellite can watch for much less Δv and money. There's no benefit to having a near-polar station, as far as I can see. I doubt the funding will ever get through for a fully indigenous station. Expand Almost everything can be done by unmanned satellites. But if you want an orbital station, it should fly on the orbit which provides it with as wide as possible spectre of tasks, including land monitoring. Salyut and Mir lacked high latitudes, it's known. On 4/20/2021 at 9:15 PM, SOXBLOX said: More likely no station is built for a while. Expand Why? Modules are built, the ISS segment is getting unstable. What's the problem to launch DoubleSalyut or HalfMir. I doubt they don't have Proton details in the warehouse. On 4/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, RCgothic said: Meanwhile the US and its continuing international partners will just put up a couple of outfitted Starships, NBD. Expand First make that Starship. On 4/20/2021 at 10:45 PM, SunlitZelkova said: and it will actually be equipped with different reconnaissance equipment lol. Expand Obviously any telescope can be used for any purpose, and you don't need a crewed station for that since Kenneth had finally murdered Dorian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762384 https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762388 https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762387 Rogozin stated that 80% of equipment ofthe "Russian segment" of ISS is depleted, and keeping it intact takes as much efforts as building a new station. He stated that Roscosmos is ready to start creating the new orbital station, and waits for the formal command. He said that they "plan to put the new station in orbit by 2030, and if this happens, it will be a great breakthrough". The station will be visitable, not constantly inhabited, because of high radiation at the polar orbits. Foreign cosmonauts will be able to visit it, too. Design and implementation of the station will b e mostly Russian due to know import limitations. AI and robots will be used in/on/at the station. NEM (Science & Power module), originially planned for usage on ISS, will be upgraded to use it in the new station as its base module. This includes energetics, attitude control, autonomy. It will be ready in 2025. The station may/can/will be an intermediate stage of the lunar program. The "Russian segment" of ISS will keep being used by partners, maybe commercially. *** P.S. NEM, Science & Power module.Scientia potentia est. *** Upd. https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762416 The station will consist of six modules. Firstly - four, then - six. *** Upd. upd. https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762416 Phase 1 will include: the base module, the science & power module, the airlock module, the attach node module. Later will be added the purposed целевой and the purposed industrial целевой производственный modules. Also the station will be equipped with a servicing platform for orbital crafts. Crew = 2 .. 4 humans Final pressurized volume = 667 m3 External workplaces = 48 Humans will be visiting the station once-twice per year. Also 3 cargo ships per year will be being delivered, *** P.P.S. Looks that unlike the picture, Nauka is replaced with some purposed module. *** P.P.P.S.https://www.interfax.ru/russia/762507 Russia won't undock and sink its segment after 2025, and continues negotiations about nice divorce. Edited April 21, 2021 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXBLOX Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 4:40 AM, kerbiloid said: First make that Starship. Expand They're being built, unlike this hypothetical station and nuclear tug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 5:17 PM, SOXBLOX said: They're being built Expand They're even not tested. Neither 30-engines 1st stage, not re-entering 2nd stage. Currently it's just a wish in pictures. *** Unlike it, the station modules are same good old Almaz-based things. And Soyuz-based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) On 4/21/2021 at 5:17 PM, SOXBLOX said: They're being built, unlike this hypothetical station and nuclear tug. Expand o_0 Reveal hidden contents Edited April 21, 2021 by DDE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXBLOX Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 7:21 PM, DDE said: [...] Expand Ah, but using Kerbiloid's logic, this is just a prototype, and has no bearing on the actual product. Anyways, I stand corrected. But, this tug, and the hypothetical station, is brought to us by the same people who built a station module, and then rebuilt it, and then repaired their rebuild, and repaired their repairs, and so on, and are only now, 13+ years past the original launch date, vaguely ready to put it in space. I think I'll wait and see. Meanwhile, I bet my money against an indigenous station being built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) On 4/21/2021 at 9:36 PM, SOXBLOX said: Ah, but using Kerbiloid's logic, this is just a prototype, and has no bearing on the actual product. Expand This is an actual product. While Starship still has never been something but overgrown Grasshopper. I.e, a prototype of a prototype. Its 1st stage was tested with 3 engines of ~30. Its 2nd stage never approached 8 km/s on re-entry. Edited April 21, 2021 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXBLOX Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 9:52 PM, kerbiloid said: While Starship has never been something but overgrown Grasshopper. I.e, a prototype of a prototype. Expand Oh, really? At least it flies. I think that if you keep scraping the bottom of the barrel of objections, you are in danger of getting splinters under your fingernails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 9:57 PM, SOXBLOX said: Oh, really? At least it flies. Expand It jumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXBLOX Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 10:02 PM, kerbiloid said: It jumps. Expand We can argue over the meaning of these words, but that would be unproductive. It flies. By fiat of a native English speaker, if you want a reason. On 4/21/2021 at 9:52 PM, kerbiloid said: Its 1st stage was tested with 3 engines of ~30. Expand They haven't tested the first stage yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted April 22, 2021 Author Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 9:52 PM, kerbiloid said: This is an actual product. While Starship still has never been something but overgrown Grasshopper. I.e, a prototype of a prototype. Its 1st stage was tested with 3 engines of ~30. Its 2nd stage never approached 8 km/s on re-entry. Expand Reveal hidden contents The first stage has not yet been tested. Currently the one they say is for orbital testing has a thrust structure pierced for 28 Raptors. 1 more than FH flies. Second stage obviously has not been tested at high velocity yet, it needs to be put on top of the first stage... first. I'm sure many of those will fail before they manage to recover one. Doesn't matter, they're not expensive. On topic, are there any renders of the new station concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 3:52 AM, SOXBLOX said: We can argue over the meaning of these words, but that would be unproductive. It flies. By fiat of a native English speaker, if you want a reason. Expand It's not about meaning of words. Just no stage of Starship has never performed a real flight even close, so treat it as an existing and available rocket is currently prematurely. But there is a dedicated thread for Starships, no need to double it. On 4/22/2021 at 4:02 AM, tater said: On topic, are there any renders of the new station concept? Expand Except the obsolete picture with Nauka (whose post-ISS fate is now unclear), afaik, no. Though, Nauka may be cloned as a "purposed module" or so. Also, the Science&Power module have two different designs on the renders. One is Salyut-like, another one looks unhuman. As it's mentioned as a abase module, the Salyut-like one looks more realistic https://neftegaz.ru/news/politics/235889-novaya-orbitalnaya-kosmicheskaya-stantsiya-rossii-pozvolit-kontrolirovat-severnyy-morskoy-put-i-arkt/ Also, about the higher-latitude station advantage: it can be supplied from Plesetsk. The inclination is probably 64.8. https://tehnorussia.ru/archives/4102 Reveal hidden contents Node module "Prichal / Pier". NEM (original) https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Национальная_орбитальная_космическая_станция https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Узловой_модуль_«Причал» https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Научно-энергетический_модульhttps://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Научно-энергетическая_платформа NEM will be reworked to make it base module, as Rogozin stated yesterdayhttps://russian.rt.com/science/news/855101-rossiya-orbitalnaya-stanciya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted April 22, 2021 Author Share Posted April 22, 2021 An expandable module? Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) What puzzles me on those pictures, look at the outer end of Nauka (the leftmost one) Reveal hidden contents It's active docking port, the probe one. Nothing will dock to it. Why is it here? Why the module is not arrached to the spherical node module with it? Strange... It looks like actually they are going to dock Nauka to ISS, then dock everything painted to its spherical section, then undock the whole assembly. 1. Nauka docks to ISS with sharp end. 2. The spherical Node Module (in the middle) dock to Nauka with its only active adaptor. 3. The airlock module (with axial docking port and airlock in it) docks to the axial passive port and gets relyapped to the zenith radial one. 4. The purposed module does same. 5. The inflatable (probably, warehouse) module does same. 6. Scientia-Potentia docks to the axial port of the sphere and stays there forever. 7. The assembly undocks from ISS.Or Zvezda transfer chamber cracks in halves and stays stuck on the Nauka active adaptor.. 8. Something docks to the sphere to the backside radial port and turns the orbital plane from 51 to 64.8 (dV~2 km/s). Maybe Nucleon. ........ 9. Profit!!!!!!! As all these modules were designed first for Mir-2, then repurposed for ISS, probably that's the plan. And based on the current leakage rate of Zvezda, before the station gets ready, the Zvezda transfer chamber will just get non-pressurizable, and ISS will anyway be consisting of two separated segments. Edited April 22, 2021 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 9:16 AM, kerbiloid said: 9. Profit!!!!!!! Expand So, for once in its entire existence the ISS would perform its original envisioned role as a shipyard. On 4/22/2021 at 9:16 AM, kerbiloid said: And based on the current leakage rate of Zvezda, before the time the station gets ready, the Zvezda transfer chamber will just get non-pressurizable, and ISS will anyway be consisting of two separated segments. Expand Three - Nauka, Zvezda, Zarya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) On 4/22/2021 at 11:03 AM, DDE said: Zvezda, Zarya. Expand Are connected and attached to ISS, and they say, will stay there. Zarya is owned by NASA, Zvezda will be a gift. Zvezda isn't unpressurized, only its transfer chamber is. Edited April 22, 2021 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDE Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 11:05 AM, kerbiloid said: Zvezda isn't unpressurized, only its transfer chamber is Expand Wait... is it the transfer compartment to the Soyuz port aft, or the spherical unit fore with three ports? Fantastic, I was thinking about the wrong leak location all along. Thing is, I now understand even less how it wouod separate the ISS in two. It'd just cut off one of the Soyuz docking ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) On 4/22/2021 at 11:13 AM, DDE said: Wait... is it the transfer compartment to the Soyuz port aft, or the spherical unit fore with three ports? Expand Afaik, the transfer chamber is the cone between the cyilnder and the sphere, but can't promise I get it right. The narrowest part of the module, with heavy weights attached to it. They always mention "transfer chamber", so I believe that's it. On 4/22/2021 at 11:13 AM, DDE said: Thing is, I now understand even less how it wouod separate the ISS in two. It'd just cut off one of the Soyuz docking ports. Expand If it separates the sphere from the cylinder, all modules attached to the sphere, get isolated from the rest of ISS but stay connected together. Or at least those of them who are attached to the Nauka's sphere, *** Interesting. As, according to the article, they plan to supply it from Plesetsk, then probably the crew should be sent same way? So, PTKNPs will be launched from Plesetsk instead of Vostochny? (Like Chelomei was planning to supply Almazes on the polar orbit if the 36 t UR-530 had replaced the 20 t Proton). And to reach the rich South Pole of the Moon and troll the 'Muricans in their Shackleton base, the near-polar orbit is also better than Baikonur and Vostochny. Then wut about Vostochny? Edited April 22, 2021 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1pman Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 9:16 AM, kerbiloid said: 8. Something docks to the sphere to the backside radial port and turns the orbital plane from 51 to 64.8 (dV~2 km/s). Expand Rogozin said it would be in sun-synchronous orbit (97°-98°). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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