Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

4 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

t is from a Long March 3B that launched a weathersat awhile back.

Location makes recovery a bit easier.

[Codraroll]

6 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Location makes recovery a bit easier.

"Found lying by the side of the road ..."

[SunlitZelkova]

Shenzhou 12 has departed Tianhe, so of the humans in orbit as of this post, two groups are in spacecraft and one group is aboard a space station.

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I don't recall this news having been shared-

CNSA apparently is planning to do a second rover, whether it would be launched before or after the Mars sample return mission is unknown however.

The configuration might scream "copy", but unlike on Earth where one does not absolutely need to make their new utility helicopter look like a UH-60 and thus can be criticized for doing so, Mars is presumably restrictive in terms of what one can do with helicopter design so I think they should be given a pass on this.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

5 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Mars is presumably restrictive in terms of what one can do with helicopter design

Quick: design a counter-rotating blade system for a helicopter-style drone/autonomous vehicle and make it as light as possible: GO!

(All entries gonna look pretty much like that).

[Beccab]

5 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Shenzhou 12 has departed Tianhe, so of the humans in orbit as of this post, two groups are in spacecraft and one group is aboard a space station.

-------------------------------------------

I don't recall this news having been shared-

CNSA apparently is planning to do a second rover, whether it would be launched before or after the Mars sample return mission is unknown however.

The configuration might scream "copy", but unlike on Earth where one does not absolutely need to make their new utility helicopter look like a UH-60 and thus can be criticized for doing so, Mars is presumably restrictive in terms of what one can do with helicopter design so I think they should be given a pass on this.

Wait, where is the solar panel?

[SunlitZelkova]

11 hours ago, Beccab said:

Wait, where is the solar panel?

It will be charged by the rover and not have its own solar panels.

[kerbiloid]

So, it should return every time back, can't get far from the rover,  and perform a precise "landing" every time, risking to damage the rover extended parts.
Instead of just having a sticked film.

A rather... alternative design.

[SunlitZelkova]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

So, it should return every time back, can't get far from the rover,  and perform a precise "landing" every time, risking to damage the rover extended parts.
Instead of just having a sticked film.

A rather... alternative design.

The mission is to scout for the rover, so it doesn't need to fly to places on its own. Wireless charging at a decent distance (a couple meters) is a thing, so I don't think it will have to land on the rover.

If the charging apparatus can be "aimed" by the rover, it does not need to perform a precise landing.

If a dust storm were to occur, the solar panel would be covered and that would be it, whereas the sideways looking charging point should remain clear and once the storm abates it can continue operation. Of course this is only useful if the second Chinese rover is going to be a "Sino-Curiosity/Perseverance" and not another solar powered rover.

[kerbiloid]

2 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

If a dust storm were to occur

, it ulikely could land on the rover, too, because of the dust on top.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

The mission is to

...showcase that China can do it, too.

At current capabilities, a flying rover is realistically just a 'look what I can do' thing; it's cool, very hard to do, and aside from studying the science of flying on another planet... not good for much.

Percy's drone was a first - and I commend the team for the accomplishment, but I'd rather see a mission that can set up a miner and get a 300' deep core sample, then analyze it and send data and pics back to home.

So if China really wants to impress - really wants to contribute, rather than play 'me too'... it could choose to do something hard that no one else has done.  Because frankly, scraping the few centimeters near the surface isn't telling us much.  A million (to billion) years or more of thin atmosphere, bone dry, no magnetic field and bathed by sunlight & etc has scoured the surface of anything more interesting than what we've already seen.

Thus - to my mind, anyone sending another drone to Mars is really just making a national pride ploy, rather than doing something particularly useful.*

 

 

 

 

* The exception would be something that could stay aloft for months, get really detailed imaging of a much wider area and actually contribute to helping current rovers maximize their potential.

[SunlitZelkova]

20 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

...showcase that China can do it, too.

At current capabilities, a flying rover is realistically just a 'look what I can do' thing; it's cool, very hard to do, and aside from studying the science of flying on another planet... not good for much.

Percy's drone was a first - and I commend the team for the accomplishment, but I'd rather see a mission that can set up a miner and get a 300' deep core sample, then analyze it and send data and pics back to home.

So if China really wants to impress - really wants to contribute, rather than play 'me too'... it could choose to do something hard that no one else has done.  Because frankly, scraping the few centimeters near the surface isn't telling us much.  A million (to billion) years or more of thin atmosphere, bone dry, no magnetic field and bathed by sunlight & etc has scoured the surface of anything more interesting than what we've already seen.

Thus - to my mind, anyone sending another drone to Mars is really just making a national pride ploy, rather than doing something particularly useful.*

 

 

 

 

* The exception would be something that could stay aloft for months, get really detailed imaging of a much wider area and actually contribute to helping current rovers maximize their potential.

In this particular case though it does have real purpose besides propaganda. China has no plans for an MRO type orbiter, so their rover is limited to what it can see in terms of ensuring route safety. If the delivery orbiter is not overhead (assuming there even is one) the rover is limited to navigating terrain that the onboard instruments can tell are safe. With the helicopter it will have more options.

It should also be noted this helicopter will carry a spectrometer, so instead of analyzing useless rocks 70% of the time and useful rocks 30% of the time* (by useful I mean particularly scientifically interesting), the team can be sure that the area they approach has potential scientific value.

*Fictional value. Not sure what the actual instance is for rovers, but more accuracy is better in any case.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, SunlitZelkova said:

China has no plans for an MRO type orbiter

Wasn't aware of that.  Yeah - not having an eye in the sky does change the equation. 

 

I figured that they left an orbital observation sat up there when they landed 

[SunlitZelkova]

20 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Wasn't aware of that.  Yeah - not having an eye in the sky does change the equation. 

 

I figured that they left an orbital observation sat up there when they landed 

Tianwen-1's orbiter might still be there when the second rover lands, but its resolution isn't that good as far as scouting for a rover goes.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Okay - hold the phone. 

I'm back to 'China flying a drone is a vanity project' - or a 'that looks fun, let's do that' thing... rather than a 'flying robot is good science' thing.* 

Couple of observations...  At a minimum, China has access to the open source data on Mars - which I assume is pretty good.  All they have to do is: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=open+source+mars+data

If they have data from 

5 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Tianwen-1's orbiter 

They've got in-house info that they can use to both confirm their own data and the veracity of the open sauce stuff. 

If they are sending a different rover to 'do science' and need ground observations - beefing up its orbiter's ground observation capabilities makes more sense.  They can easily make a extensible mast for more localized and detailed images of the area for route planning. 

So - I'm back to 'do what no one else has ever done: pull out a 30 meter core sample and share the data'. 

That would be great science. 

 

 

 

 

* (Not picking on CN - anyone flying a rover on Mars is either doing 'me too' or 'wheee!' b/c of the low utility). 

[kerbiloid]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

'do what no one else has ever done: pull out a 30 meter core sample and share the data'. 

30 m? 

Throw a nuke to see what's inside.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

33 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

30 m? 

Throw a nuke to see what's inside.

Not a bad idea, actually. 

Unfortunately people are stupid about nukes, so probably a PR nightmare. 

Could probably be successful with just a MOAB and not have to deal with the trinitite. 

Also a perfect terrain for the RoboDawgs

[DDE]

16 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Could probably be successful with just a MOAB and not have to deal with the trinitite. 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3934659

https://m.facebook.com/defencemedia/videos/427144544291174

(now that we're talking about drilling and munitions)

[kerbiloid]

24 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Not a bad idea, actually.

I propose it here for years, especially for Venus.
We could already have the Venusian ground samples.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

48 minutes ago, DDE said:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3934659

https://m.facebook.com/defencemedia/videos/427144544291174

(now that we're talking about drilling and munitions)

That's cool - I don't understand the Russian, but I presume it's an off the shelf military munition repurposed with a rocket drill head?

Can it do rock ablation or only topsoil? 

50 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

I propose it here for years, especially for Venus.
We could already have the Venusian ground samples.

Again - perfect use for something like that, except there is no way for others to say 'it's for science' - - they'd inevitably see it as provocative, with any science gained being viewed as merely a cover story. 

Although - given atmospheric density - how do you propose to gather the samples?  (Mars nuke likely to space debris, but Venus debris likely does not) 

 

[kerbiloid]

9 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Although - given atmospheric density - how do you propose to gather the samples? 

From the top of the mushroom.

A hypersonic diving scoop.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 minute ago, kerbiloid said:

From the top of the mushroom.

That's what I figured.  What does the vehicle look like that can do it and return? 

Skimmer would be in full plasma - so glider drone with small rocket for ejection burn? 

Edited September 19, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[kerbiloid]

Just now, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

What does the vehicle look like that can do it and return? 

Like a typical hypesonic but with a booster to reorbit.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

That would be an interesting mission. 

And a political nightmare - but I think it would work 

[DDE]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

That's cool - I don't understand the Russian, but I presume it's an off the shelf military munition repurposed with a rocket drill head?

Can it do rock ablation or only topsoil? 

Yeah, it's a Grad rocket.

Seems that the more purpose-designed systems could manage rock. There was a lOx+gasoline+water variant, apparently.

I ran into this back when I fancied a drill tank or combat subterrene.

Edited September 19, 2021 by DDE

[SunlitZelkova]

9 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Okay - hold the phone. 

I'm back to 'China flying a drone is a vanity project' - or a 'that looks fun, let's do that' thing... rather than a 'flying robot is good science' thing.* 

Couple of observations...  At a minimum, China has access to the open source data on Mars - which I assume is pretty good.  All they have to do is: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=open+source+mars+data

If they have data from 

They've got in-house info that they can use to both confirm their own data and the veracity of the open sauce stuff. 

If they are sending a different rover to 'do science' and need ground observations - beefing up its orbiter's ground observation capabilities makes more sense.  They can easily make a extensible mast for more localized and detailed images of the area for route planning. 

So - I'm back to 'do what no one else has ever done: pull out a 30 meter core sample and share the data'. 

That would be great science. 

 

 

 

 

* (Not picking on CN - anyone flying a rover on Mars is either doing 'me too' or 'wheee!' b/c of the low utility). 

It is not that simple. And if the US decides to start limiting access to that data? Then what?

This might sound like a silly scenario but it is something China takes seriously. An example can be seen in their Europe-Shanghai rail route. It is indeed much more expensive and much less efficient than shipping by boat- and takes the same amount of time anyways. But what happens when war breaks out and the USN blockades China's maritime trade routes? It suddenly becomes a vital link to the neutral European countries to continue trade.

The CPC's approval for projects is required too. They are in the middle of a campaign to "indigenize" everything in China to end reliance on the West (this was the goal from the beginning of their modernization in the first place) and they would not be pleased to hear "we need to rely on American data" during the project presentation.

Tianwen-1's orbiter can not be used to confirm it. Tianwen-1 has a 2.5 meter resolution, while HiRISE is 0.3mm.

Why would they send another 500 million dollar orbiter when they can send a 80 million dollar helicopter?

A helicopter isn't necessarily going to be majorly innovative or super ground breaking- but it does/can have vital utility.

8 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Unfortunately people are stupid about nukes, so probably a PR nightmare. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

It would actually be illegal.

Docking and rendezvous duel use uncrewed space ops are one thing, but it, unfortunately, would be blatant treaty smashing.