The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[zanie420]

I did it!

using the best parts of both @IncongruousGoat and @dvader's clipping crazy craft designs! 

[zanie420]

The Mun science is so... underwhelming! I spent over 100,000 in funds to only net 75 points. Granted I only hit one biome. Not sure that was worth it, versus sending 10 cheap drones all over. But it was fun  No more EVAs in the Kerbin SOI left now.

Edited February 4, 2019 by zanie420

[IncongruousGoat]

22 minutes ago, zanie420 said:

The Mun science is so... underwhelming! I spent over 100,000 in funds to only net 75 points.

Tell me about it. The cheap probe approach isn't much better, either, since you only get ~25 science per probe, which means visiting every single benighted biome on that moon to get enough science to do things. Ever visited the Polar Lowlands? Neither had I, and I never want to again.

[zanie420]

6th album is up:
 

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/gallery/RkQWJis

Summary: I send fuel into orbit twice, before sending up Jeb and Bob(on ladder), who rendezvous with it. Not satisfied, I send up another tank. Get a polar Mun orbit, collect all above EVAs, land in the east crater, get back to Kerbin safe with all data, 75.7 science collected.

Full mission report here

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by zanie420

[zanie420]

9 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Tell me about it. The cheap probe approach isn't much better, either, since you only get ~25 science per probe, which means visiting every single benighted biome on that moon to get enough science to do things. Ever visited the Polar Lowlands? Neither had I, and I never want to again.

At least you had fairings.... which is what I was hoping to get after my grand scheme to land Bob on the Mun. I didn't get to more than one biome like I did in practice however   I will need to send at least 3 more rockets back, since I haven't yet unlocked general construction yet, if I want them.

[Jacke]

So, I'm finally finding the time to get a Caveman career started.  And I'm looking into the details of it.

And suddenly I understand a few of the specific things you've all be talking about.

With a level 1 Astronaut Complex, you can't EVA except on the surface of Kerbin.  So that's why you have Kerbals "ride ladders" so they're already out of the pod.

So, how well can you transport these ladder riders?

[zanie420]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

So, how well can you transport these ladder riders?

very precariously.... go high and slow on your ascent until you reach the upper atmosphere

My solution to my current lack of fairings? MOAR boosters!

[IncongruousGoat]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

So, how well can you transport these ladder riders?

Depends on whether you have the OKTO unlocked or not. Without it,  it's really precarious, since you need to do a funky thing with multiple offset capsules. If you do have the OKTO, you can use that for control and stick a rotated battery at the bottom of the capsule's ladder to keep the ladder-naut in place. It's still tricky, but not nearly so bad as the multiple-capsule approach.

Once you're in space, the situation changes, since you can't warp while a Kerbal is holding onto a ladder. Normally letting go of the ladder would cause drift issues, but @dvader found a way to get nearly zero drift, even over interplanetary distances. He'd have to be the one to explain it, though, since I'm not super clear on how it works.

[MinimalMinmus]

5 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Depends on whether you have the OKTO unlocked or not. Without it,  it's really precarious, since you need to do a funky thing with multiple offset capsules. If you do have the OKTO, you can use that for control and stick a rotated battery at the bottom of the capsule's ladder to keep the ladder-naut in place. It's still tricky, but not nearly so bad as the multiple-capsule approach.

Once you're in space, the situation changes, since you can't warp while a Kerbal is holding onto a ladder. Normally letting go of the ladder would cause drift issues, but @dvader found a way to get nearly zero drift, even over interplanetary distances. He'd have to be the one to explain it, though, since I'm not super clear on how it works.

I'd be curious to know too, as right now I'm trying to squeeze the last science out of Kerbin (although I'm not as hardcore as @zanie420, and that means no non-trivial splashdowns), and I will soon have to do a polar recon mission for Kerbin, Mun and Minmus.

[zanie420]

6 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

I'd be curious to know too, as right now I'm trying to squeeze the last science out of Kerbin (although I'm not as hardcore as @zanie420

You may find yourself needing a point or two, to make 45 or 90 once you drain the KSC micro biomes and surrounding areas....  and now you know how to acquire it on Kerbin easy   Grasslands, Desert, and Shore splash down science are all within the SRB range of the space center.

[MinimalMinmus]

4 minutes ago, zanie420 said:

You may find yourself needing a point or two, to make 45 or 90 once you drain the KSC micro biomes and surrounding areas....  and now you know how to acquire it on Kerbin easy   Grasslands, Desert, and Shore splash down science are all within the SRB range of the space center.

Could you upload a map of the various "splashed down"? Shore is easy, but where can you find the rest?

 

P.S. It could be an additional document for @The Dunatian to provide a link to.

As of progress, I'm currently at 80 science, and I just racked up all (but one, oops) low orbit EVAs. Bob is "safely" in orbit and I plan on sending a probe to change his orbit to equatorial and get desert+high orbit EVA.

Edited February 5, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[zanie420]

1 hour ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Could you upload a map of the various "splashed down"? Shore is easy, but where can you find the rest?

So what I did was find this post that had coordinates, and used kerbal-maps to locate the areas. But seriously, just look at Part 5 of my mission so far, and it will show you all the locations. Via an in-game perspective I wish I would have had. You can technically do it it all in 4 flights unlike I did. I landed upside down in Biakerbanur, and should have combined with the highland/mountains/tundra/ice caps/northern ice shelf run I did next as originally planned. It is time consuming, even at x4. Took 15+ IRL mins to get to the badlands.... 

[MinimalMinmus]

Do you consider WorldStabilizer to be a forbidden mod? It does technically change the gameplay, but that's because it fixes the "vessels on a surface bounce upon loading" glitch.

[dvader]

On 2/5/2019 at 2:59 AM, IncongruousGoat said:

Depends on whether you have the OKTO unlocked or not. Without it,  it's really precarious, since you need to do a funky thing with multiple offset capsules. If you do have the OKTO, you can use that for control and stick a rotated battery at the bottom of the capsule's ladder to keep the ladder-naut in place. It's still tricky, but not nearly so bad as the multiple-capsule approach.

Once you're in space, the situation changes, since you can't warp while a Kerbal is holding onto a ladder. Normally letting go of the ladder would cause drift issues, but @dvader found a way to get nearly zero drift, even over interplanetary distances. He'd have to be the one to explain it, though, since I'm not super clear on how it works.

@MinimalMinmus I used an upside down command pod instead of the "multiple offset capsule approach". https://i.imgur.com/j1lFyjB.jpg It is more stable but causes more drag (I think) but since the Terrier was unlocked, I had plenty of dV to waste. I had serious stability problems with all the other approaches. I can't remember if I tried three command pods to reduce drag. One at the top, two at the bottom (one up, one down).

As for getting zero drift in space.

1. Orient the rocket in a "good" direction. I think it is with kerbal on the "other" side of the rocket facing the body you're orbiting. You want him to drift away from and not into the rocket.
2. Grab the ladder, let go and immediately press warp 5x.
3. Check Pe+Ap (2*SMA) of your kerbal and compare to your rocket. If the sum is close, the orbital period will be close and even if there is a large distance between them after half an orbit, there will be a very small difference after one orbit. Adjusting mid orbit to keep the speed diff small is generally not worth it. Just stay cool and trust the math.
4. If the difference between the Kerbals SMA and the rockets SMA is too great, repeat from 2.

General tips:

1. Always check where your Kerbal is before going below 5x warp! If he's inside the rocket engines, wait until he's out again. Don't risk upsetting the Kraken.
2. Make sure your ship "targets" your kerbal and your kerbal targets your ship. If they drift more than 100km apart, they are no longer visible on screen and will be impossible to find without the target in the navball.
3. Practice catching your Kerbal on the ladder without using his jet pack / RCS. It is a limited resource and you may need it for emergencies.

 

[zanie420]

4 minutes ago, dvader said:

@MinimalMinmus I used an upside down command pod instead of the "multiple offset capsule approach". https://i.imgur.com/j1lFyjB.jpg It is more stable but causes more drag (I think) but since the Terrier was unlocked, I had plenty of dV to waste. I had serious stability problems with all the other approaches. I can't remember if I tried three command pods to reduce drag. One at the top, two at the bottom (one up, one down).

As for getting zero drift in space.

1. Orient the rocket in a "good" direction. I think it is with kerbal on the "other" side of the rocket facing the body you're orbiting. You want him to drift away from and not into the rocket.
2. Grab the ladder, let go and immediately press warp 5x.
3. Check Pe+Ap (2*SMA) of your kerbal and compare to your rocket. If the sum is close, the orbital period will be close and even if there is a large distance between them after half an orbit, there will be a very small difference after one orbit. Adjusting mid orbit to keep the speed diff small is generally not worth it. Just stay cool and trust the math.
4. If the difference between the Kerbals SMA and the rockets SMA is too great, repeat from 2.

General tips:

1. Always check where your Kerbal is before going below 5x warp! If he's inside the rocket engines, wait until he's out again. Don't risk upsetting the Kraken.
2. Make sure your ship "targets" your kerbal and your kerbal targets your ship. If they drift more than 100km apart, they are no longer visible on screen and will be impossible to find without the target in the navball.
3. Practice catching your Kerbal on the ladder without using his jet pack / RCS. It is a limited resource and you may need it for emergencies.

 

I wholeheartedly concur and found out most of this in sandbox testing, which is good practice for the ascent. After you clear 40km, the hard part is over.  The key with no drift, is to hit period right after the spacebar. Good luck. I had Bob down to 0.09 EVA prop on the Mun landing

[zanie420]

Update: I decided to send ground assembled probes to the Mun. Took fuel systems and advanced construction . I only need 270 science now. Crucial decision ahead. Duna? Eve? Jool? I will post the penultimate album in the morning. 

[MinimalMinmus]

I just stranded Val after a wrong escape burn from Minmus, I officially have one less pilot. Time to restart.

 

Just kidding.

 

EDIT: okay, guys, I think it will work, but this is officially the most mentally straining mission I have ever done in KSP. I think I have rarely thrown as many expletives at KSP ever.

Edited February 7, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[zanie420]

7th album is up:
KSP Caveman 1.6 NCD run - part 7

 

Summary: I develop a family of ground assembled Munar science landers. I get the needed science to final have fairings. I used fairings to get just enough additional science without anymore launchpad docking, in two more launches. I take fuel systems with resulting 90 points. This sets up my final stab at this challenge with only 270 points left.

[MinimalMinmus]

I DID IT

 

AAAAAAAAAAAA

 

IT TOOK ME THREE HOURS

 

I AM SO HAPPY OH MY GOD

[MinimalMinmus]

[Removed because I hadn't read everything in your report, whoops]

Edited February 7, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[zanie420]

2 minutes ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Admittedly, as a caveat, it doesn't do two goos and two MBs, but you only loose 17% science doing so ( 78% VS 95%).

Preface: this is not a rant LMAO: 
First this is NCD.... and every tiny scrap of science helps. Second, I was trying to do something I haven't seen others do, and the launchpad assembly was soooooooo much less stress for me personally. Third, I did not have fairings, and that was my next goal. At least it wasn't 16 launches like @IncongruousGoat, albeit I am not draining the Mun of science. Forth, I ended up optimizing my design in the end, once fairings had been acquired  

Update: working on the best way to get fuel into space with the current tech I have. 18 ton limit is the bottleneck, but the mainsail may be the answer......

[MinimalMinmus]

47 minutes ago, zanie420 said:

Preface: this is not a rant LMAO: 
First this is NCD.... and every tiny scrap of science helps. Second, I was trying to do something I haven't seen others do, and the launchpad assembly was soooooooo much less stress for me personally. Third, I did not have fairings, and that was my next goal. At least it wasn't 16 launches like @IncongruousGoat, albeit I am not draining the Mun of science. Forth, I ended up optimizing my design in the end, once fairings had been acquired  

Update: working on the best way to get fuel into space with the current tech I have. 18 ton limit is the bottleneck, but the mainsail may be the answer......

I'm just saying, but if you have the courage to, Kerbin seems to have a green monolith too.

Proof (n.b. it's not mine):

You can try your luck at the spinning wheel one more time. If you get lucky you could get precision engineering (better antennas and probes) or advanced electrics (better solar panels).

 

Theorically, with the RA-2 antenna, if you build a giga-relay with 60 antennas in orbit, you could send a probe to Eve if you use two RA-2 or analogues With twice that number and 5 on the probe, you reach Duna. Of course that would be painful (and possibly laggy) but that would be possible.

 

With the RA-15 however things are different. The numbers become 10 antennas for Eve and 20 for Duna, which is far more reasonable.

 

 

P.S. Since by now the challenge has been proven to be very much possible even in its most extreme setting, I'm gonna throw an open question.

"Is it possible to do it in a game with even less science?"

Since this is pretty much a fantasy challenge (aka not stock), I'm suggesting the name "Mythril" (7,5% science), "Adamantite" (5%), and "Unobtainium (2.5%). I'm pretty certain Mythril is possible by stretching NCD's strategy, but it would be painfully grindy. Adamantite would probably require some brand new strategy, and I'm almost sure Unobtainum would be impossible, this time for real, really. But hey, who knows?

Edited February 7, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[JAFO]

On 2/6/2019 at 6:59 PM, MinimalMinmus said:

Do you consider WorldStabilizer to be a forbidden mod? It does technically change the gameplay, but that's because it fixes the "vessels on a surface bounce upon loading" glitch.

I don't see any reason to forbid that.. so far as I'm concerned (and as the mod page itself states), it's merely a bug-fix.

[Jacke]

So I finally started a Caveman career.  As I've had a lot of experience with tedious long campaigns from Better Than Starting Manned, I decided to go right to Nanocrystaline Diamond.  The next tier, Diamond, has twice as much Science and I think will play very differently from NCD.  Sure, it'll take a while.  I've got a lot to learn about recent stock KSP and I won't mind it taking a while.

Discovered that leaping for EVA Report Flying Low over Kerbin's Shores is very easy.  Haven't seen Flying over KSC biome Science but I'm starting to think it's only in some spots and maybe in a very thin altitude layer just over the ground.  (I also remember from my previous biome recce a weird alternate biome seen in spots along the Level 1 Runway, especially the west end.)  I really need to do a helicopter survey to see if I can narrow the KSC Flying Low biomes to particular locations and altitudes.  But I'd rather play my Caveman campaign.

I did have Bob Kerman walk a loooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg way in the first mission.  Got so many EVA reports that after a short rocket flight second mission had 6.1 Science.  (Bob hung on really good to the outside of his Mk1 Pod, standing on a Girder Segment, even as the spacecraft did a slow tumble end for end.)  I could unlock Engineering 101 and the Thermometer before sending out the 2xMk1 Pod roller.  Also discovered that the experiment report window for a Landed on Kerbin biome is almost the same as for Splash.  Just the science is different (0.2 for Landed, 0.3 for Splashed) and the report in the R&D Archives.

And damn, I am not liking that 2xMk1 Pod roller.  Launched on the Runway and within minutes almost crashed the damn thing.  So Bob is pushing it all the way for safety's sake.  As well, it means I can get 3 Goo reports for each biome (store 1 in each Mk1, Bob keeps 1) if Bob doesn't reboard.  And 3 Goo reports for a biome makes sure it's completely investigated and doesn't leave silvers of ungathered Science.

It'll take a while.  If I run out of charge and Bob can't get it off of a building, I may recover this one and launch another from the Launch Pad.

Pics later when I'm farther along.

"I am one with the Goo.  The Goo is one with me."

BTW, has anyone run an NCD career without using the 2 Mk1 Pod roller?  I'm finding it a bit frustrating.

P.S.  While I was rolling the 2xMk1 Pod up against the VAB to get the VAB Main Building biome, I got a Mystery Goo Oberservation while flying at Kerbin.  (Worth nothing as I already got 3 of them during the previous mission.)  This is likely the sort of thing that at other spots could give a Flying over a KSC area biome.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jacke

[MinimalMinmus]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

So I finally started a Caveman career.  As I've had a lot of experience with tedious long campaigns from Better Than Starting Manned, I decided to go right to Nanocrystaline Diamond.  The next tier, Diamond, has twice as much Science and I think will play very differently from NCD.  Sure, it'll take a while.  I've got a lot to learn about recent stock KSP and I won't mind it taking a while.

Discovered that leaping for EVA Report Flying Low over Kerbin's Shores is very easy.  Haven't seen Flying over KSC biome Science but I'm starting to think it's only in some spots and maybe in a very thin altitude layer just over the ground.  (I also remember from my previous biome recce a weird alternate biome seen in spots along the Level 1 Runway, especially the west end.)  I really need to do a helicopter survey to see if I can narrow the KSC Flying Low biomes to particular locations and altitudes.  But I'd rather play my Caveman campaign.

I did have Bob Kerman walk a loooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg way in the first mission.  Got so many EVA reports that after a short rocket flight second mission had 6.1 Science.  (Bob hung on really good to the outside of his Mk1 Pod, standing on a Girder Segment, even as the spacecraft did a slow tumble end for end.)  I could unlock Engineering 101 and the Thermometer before sending out the 2xMk1 Pod roller.  Also discovered that the experiment report window for a Landed on Kerbin biome is almost the same as for Splash.  Just the science is different (0.2 for Landed, 0.3 for Splashed) and the report in the R&D Archives.

And damn, I am not liking that 2xMk1 Pod roller.  Launched on the Runway and within minutes almost crashed the damn thing.  So Bob is pushing it all the way for safety's sake.  As well, it means I can get 3 Goo reports for each biome (store 1 in each Mk1, Bob keeps 1) if Bob doesn't reboard.  And 3 Goo reports for a biome makes sure it's completely investigated and doesn't leave silvers of ungathered Science.

It'll take a while.  If I run out of charge and Bob can't get it off of a building, I may recover this one and launch another from the Launch Pad.

Pics later when I'm farther along.

"I am one with the Goo.  The Goo is one with me."

BTW, has anyone run an NCD career without using the 2 Mk1 Pod roller?  I'm finding it a bit frustrating.

P.S.  While I was rolling the 2xMk1 Pod up against the VAB to get the VAB Main Building biome, I got a Mystery Goo Oberservation while flying at Kerbin.  (Worth nothing as I already got 3 of them during the previous mission.)  This is likely the sort of thing that at other spots could give a Flying over a KSC area biome.

Tip: if you do a report on the exact same tick you leave the ground, it's actually possible to get a glitched "XXX while flying over [KSC biome]" report. It helps tremendously.

One way to get them is to start rolling at 5-6 m.s-1 and do a lot of reports until you get it.

For buildings, go in front of it, go towards the building, collide it gently and keep rolling. Do reports while you're rolling stationarily and you will eventually get it.