The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Tip: if you do a report on the exact same tick you leave the ground, it's actually possible to get a glitched "XXX while flying over [KSC biome]" report. It helps tremendously.

One way to get them is to start rolling at 5-6 m.s-1 and do a lot of reports until you get it.

For buildings, go in front of it, go towards the building, collide it gently and keep rolling. Do reports while you're rolling stationarily and you will eventually get it.

It would be juicy to reliably get those Flying Low biomes, worth over twice as much as a Landed biome.  But I'm damn well near burned out on the 2xMk1 Pod roller.  After I got back from the looooonnnng roll, saw I'd missed 3 reports: Crew Report/VAB, EVA Report/Admin, and EVA Report/R&D.  So rolled out a stripped down roller without Goo or Thermometer and got them in a straight roll from the launchpad.

But oh lord, the detail of that roller mission to get all the EVA, CrewR, and Goo I didn't have.  In the dark too (follow up to get the last 3 was just at dawn).  But I think it might be necessary to get that science now.  I've got both the Tier 2 nodes unlocked, the Thermometer, and the Hammer unlocked and I'm about to fly a Hammer rocket to hopefully above 18km and Flying High (and a parachute test contract coming down).  Bob will be riding the Girder Segment again and he'd better hold tight to his pod hatch.  I want that Flying High EVA Report!   (And a smattering of other science.)

Hmmm.  I have one Scientist.  It's one thing to ride a Girder to low altitude when the Flea motor only burns 9s.  To ride a rocket to high altitude without a proper cage is crazy.  And potentially career ending at this point.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jacke

[MinimalMinmus]

And the Minmus monolith gives...

 

HEAVY ROCKETRY!

Because of COURSE it does.

 

Oh, and I just lost val, for good this time, because SAS glitched during re-entry.

This challenge is starting to kill me.

Edited February 8, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[Aeroboi]

@The Dunatian I might apply for any of the challenges, however I have a recommendation for  another challenge.

What if you were to launch a 30 part 18 ton vessel using rover wheels and drive it outside the launchpad and then make another rocket with a construction so it can rest on top of the former vessel to make i.e. a 36 Ton vessel while still using the prerequisite tech nodes and facility upgrades?

I haven't tried this but I'm sure people are willing to construct something out of the ordinary? Would this seem cool to people.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Aeroboi

[zanie420]

 

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

It would be juicy to reliably get those Flying Low biomes, worth over twice as much as a Landed biome. 

You probably haven't seen my mission albums, or read my posts on this then. You can reliably get flying over crew reports and temp readings from each of the KSC micro-biome with the roller. It just takes practice with timing, to spin up fast, and hit the experiment at just the right time to get the desired situation. Once you get it, it's easy.

 

12 minutes ago, Aeroboi said:

What if you were to launch a 30 part 18 ton vessel using rover wheels and drive it outside the launchpad and then make another rocket with a construction so it can rest on top of the former vessel to make i.e. a 36 Ton vessel while still using the prerequisite tech nodes and facility upgrades?

I haven't tried this but I'm sure people are willing to construct something out of the ordinary? Would this seem cool to people.

I have been doing launchpad assembly like this already, as I find orbital rendezvous much harder. I am designing my final mission this way too. Jeez, I hope at least @The Dunatianis looking at my missions.....

[zanie420]

3 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

And the Minmus monolith gives...

HEAVY ROCKETRY!

at least it is a node you need to unlock in this challenge, and not something like command modules....

3 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

Oh, and I just lost val, for good this time, because SAS glitched during re-entry.

Oh man.... that's a tough loss, especially after just rescuing her! Did you accidentally use the mod key and T at the same time, inverting SAS? That and mistakenly hitting the spacebar have scuttled a launch or five for me....

[IncongruousGoat]

47 minutes ago, Aeroboi said:

@The Dunatian I might apply for any of the challenges, however I have a recommendation for  another challenge.

What if you were to launch a 30 part 18 ton vessel using rover wheels and drive it outside the launchpad and then make another rocket with a construction so it can rest on top of the former vessel to make i.e. a 36 Ton vessel while still using the prerequisite tech nodes and facility upgrades?

I haven't tried this but I'm sure people are willing to construct something out of the ordinary? Would this seem cool to people.

Yep, this is a thing already. I'm not a huge fan, personally (I find orbital assembly to be less irritating), but it works for some people.

[Jacke]

52 minutes ago, zanie420 said:

You probably haven't seen my mission albums, or read my posts on this then. You can reliably get flying over crew reports and temp readings from each of the KSC micro-biome with the roller. It just takes practice with timing, to spin up fast, and hit the experiment at just the right time to get the desired situation. Once you get it, it's easy.

I've not gone through all the albums, but I've seen some of your screenshots of you getting the Flying Low KSC biome science.
But after actually running a 2xMk1 Pod roller, I find it just too dangerous.  The roller was just using up power too fast and going nuts over the ground when it caught.  I was really afraid I was going to have dead Kerbals on my 2nd mission.  I had Bob Kerman push one for over 2 hours to get all the remaining science from the existing 16 mini and micro-biomes Landed and even just using the reaction wheel to push the roller against a building for a micro-biome or to roll it away had the batteries almost flat at the end of the mission.

I don't know how you do that.  Even from my previous surface survey of KSC, I know there's weird mini-biomes on the Runway which are strange and unreliable and I imagine there are other areas elsewhere.  I've not done a lot with aircraft and nothing with helicopters, but I definitely want to do a helicopter survey eventually to find if there's sweet spots.  But I don't even want to think about spinning a roller like you describe.

I was serious earlier if anyone had a plan for early NCD career that worked and didn't use the roller.  As it was, the first 4 missions, the first one Bob Kerman going walkabout from a Mk1 Pod, a low altitude flight, the looooooooonnnnnnnnng roller mission, and a short roller mission to get the last 3 biomes I missed, they all took 4 hours.  I would like to know if there was a way to do that faster and without the roller.

 

52 minutes ago, zanie420 said:

I have been doing launchpad assembly like this already, as I find orbital rendezvous much harder.

The tools may be challenging in stock KSP, but surface checkout and assembly should be superior to doing it in orbit.  One thing I strongly recall from Zubrin's The Case for Mars.

[zanie420]

@IncongruousGoat, may I ask what comprised the cargo lifter you used to ferry your final orbital construction? I see a reliant(?) and 4 sparks on the bottom, but is there 2 terrier stages after that?

maybe I missed where you explained this....

[IncongruousGoat]

6 hours ago, zanie420 said:

@IncongruousGoat, may I ask what comprised the cargo lifter you used to ferry your final orbital construction? I see a reliant(?) and 4 sparks on the bottom, but is there 2 terrier stages after that?

The first stage had 1 Reliant and 4 Sparks mounted to .625m nosecones (the nosecones are important, by the way - the aerodynamics don't work out if you use, say, Oscar B's), and the second stage was just a Terrier stage. There was no third stage.

Although, the engines used on the first stage changed depending on the part count of whatever I was launching. A couple of the higher part count components needed to be launched by a 2-Thud first stage.

Credit goes to @GoSlash27 for the Reliant+4 Sparks thing, which he came up with for the Caveman Heavy Lift challenge.

[MinimalMinmus]

10 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

The first stage had 1 Reliant and 4 Sparks mounted to .625m nosecones (the nosecones are important, by the way - the aerodynamics don't work out if you use, say, Oscar B's), and the second stage was just a Terrier stage. There was no third stage.

Although, the engines used on the first stage changed depending on the part count of whatever I was launching. A couple of the higher part count components needed to be launched by a 2-Thud first stage.

Credit goes to @GoSlash27 for the Reliant+4 Sparks thing, which he came up with for the Caveman Heavy Lift challenge.

It looks like a pretty good system, the only flaw I see is the high part count. and the fact it is "high tech".

Maybe we should do a compendium of all the possible viable lower stages.

[zanie420]

17 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

The first stage had 1 Reliant and 4 Sparks mounted to .625m nosecones (the nosecones are important, by the way - the aerodynamics don't work out if you use, say, Oscar B's)

Have not invented nosecones sadly. I am going with a combo of ground/orbital assembly for my final mission to Eve/Gilly. Lots and lots of sandbox testing going on.....

[IncongruousGoat]

3 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

It looks like a pretty good system, the only flaw I see is the high part count. and the fact it is "high tech".

Both of those hurt it pretty bad. It's actually the reason I farmed the Mun so hard in my NCD run before setting off for Duna - I was trying to get all the high tech I would need to build my ship. Now, some of that tech proved unnecessary in the final analysis (lander cans come to mind), but the nosecones were really important.

[zanie420]

14 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

 Now, some of that tech proved unnecessary in the final analysis (lander cans come to mind), but the nosecones were really important.

I went with a MUCH bigger nosecone

I found yet another praise for the service bay, as the door opening can be used to lift rocket parts into docking position! Yes Bob is going to ride the outside of this thing

Edited February 9, 2019 by zanie420

[Mr. Peabody]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:17 AM, Aeroboi said:

@The Dunatian I might apply for any of the challenges, however I have a recommendation for  another challenge.

What if you were to launch a 30 part 18 ton vessel using rover wheels and drive it outside the launchpad and then make another rocket with a construction so it can rest on top of the former vessel to make i.e. a 36 Ton vessel while still using the prerequisite tech nodes and facility upgrades?

I haven't tried this but I'm sure people are willing to construct something out of the ordinary? Would this seem cool to people.

This has been done quite a few times already. It's known as launchpad rocket construction. As for Caveman-based challenges, I'm not a fan of them.

Heavens, the rest of you have been busy while I was away. 

[Jacke]

@zanie420, I may not have your skill at driving the 2xMk1 Pod Roller, but you were right about using it to get KSC Flying Low biomes.  I've mastered it enough to now easily get Flying Low over the 11 KSC area biomes, at least for Crew Reports and Temperature.  And using a Kerbal to push it around allows me to get them for EVA Reports as well.

Anyhoo, I decided after about 5 missions missions to restart my Caveman NCD career.  Right at the start, I'd picked the wrong contract to get enough funds to start missions, Orbit Kerbin.  I was still a ways off completing that mission and finally getting the full use of my 2 contract slots.  And I now knew enough I could almost as easily start a career with the reduced funds of Escape Kerbin's Atmosphere, which I was on the verge of doing after 5 missions.

Before starting the new career, I decided to test the crap out of the Roller.  It didn't look good, as even with the use of Precision Mode I couldn't really drive it around without losing control.  And I even crashed it up with lose of crew.

So, started my new career yesterday, this time picking Escape Kerbin's Atmosphere.  Did a few missions to get more funds and unlock the Thermometer.  Then it was time to roll out the Roller.

Bob Kerman was EVA all the time pushing the Roller all the way.  Went smoother than in my first career, even though it started at KSC sunset.  This time I was thorough and didn't miss any experiments outstanding in any biomes.  And to finish it off, I decided to roll east of KSC through the Shores biome and into the water for Spashed Down in Kerbin's Shores.

While Bob was pushing the Roller east through the KSC Launchpad biome and then the KSC biome itself, I would click on his EVA Report to see what the biome was, looking for the Shores to show up.  Was very irregular, with Bob getting KSC when still in Launchpad, sometimes Shores when in Launchpad and later KSC.  But when I switched to the Roller, it wasn't Shores yet.  Bob also sometimes got Flying over Shores.

Then this showed up.  I missed it the first time or two, focused as I was on looking for Shores.

Oh, my.

Pushing the roller, bouncing along the ground, with the roughness of KSP biomes and their boundaries....  Well, there it was.  I think it's likely razor thin in height and irregular like any other biome boundary.

But this also meant I could have gotten EVA Report for the other 10 KSC area biomes as well.

I wasn't pushing this Roller back.  Took it down to the water and got the Splashed Down science.

Then I took out another Roller through KSC for the Flying over KSC area biomes.  Bob got it for EVA Report.  With very careful use of the reaction wheels in Precision mode, the Roller got Crew Report and Temperature.

As @zanie420 said, it wasn't that hard, once I'd gotten the feel for it.  The Roller was still just too wild for me to drive it any distance without risk of crashing.

Tried to get Goo Sample, but Goo only rarely got Flying over Shores and never over a KSC biome.

And as an extra, got the Temperature for Flying over Shores as well, which I was missing.

For EVA Report, Crew Report, and Temperature for Flying over the 11 KSC area biomes,  That's 16.17 more science early in my career.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Jacke

[JAFO]

On 2/8/2019 at 5:57 PM, Jacke said:

And damn, I am not liking that 2xMk1 Pod roller.

Ain't none of us "like" it.. it sucks, and is always a PITA. 

But it's better than the alternatives.

[zanie420]

Update:  after 4 days of intense trial and error in sandbox, I was finally comfortable in attempting my final mission, and I got Bob to Gilly!

now I just need to get them home with the science and this NCD run is complete

[Jacke]

I just got the Barometer and rolled around KSC to get its science.  So I'm looking at what to do next.  Especially as I've played KSP little since 1.0.4 and that was BTSM and very not like stock.  I've looked through some of the topics and posts about various player's NCD careers, but I've not seen the details I'm looking for.

How well can the "focused observational survey of Kerbin" missions be done before making aircraft?  I think some I could hit with a boost-glide BACC SRB, but that needs parts like the AV-B4 Winglet from Stability and the Probe core from Basic Science, so that seems to be a long ways off before attempting.

I'm wondering how to use the various Kerbal cages to take Bob up for EVA science.  I can figure out the offset dual Mk1 pods, but that one looks challenging to fly.  And I have no idea how to make the rocket for the centre-line cages and how to get Bob in there before launch.  Nor how to get him back.

And does anyone ever use the Swivel engine or is it skipped for the Reliant?

[MinimalMinmus]

2 hours ago, Jacke said:

I just got the Barometer and rolled around KSC to get its science.  So I'm looking at what to do next.  Especially as I've played KSP little since 1.0.4 and that was BTSM and very not like stock.  I've looked through some of the topics and posts about various player's NCD careers, but I've not seen the details I'm looking for.

How well can the "focused observational survey of Kerbin" missions be done before making aircraft?  I think some I could hit with a boost-glide BACC SRB, but that needs parts like the AV-B4 Winglet from Stability and the Probe core from Basic Science, so that seems to be a long ways off before attempting.

I'm wondering how to use the various Kerbal cages to take Bob up for EVA science.  I can figure out the offset dual Mk1 pods, but that one looks challenging to fly.  And I have no idea how to make the rocket for the centre-line cages and how to get Bob in there before launch.  Nor how to get him back.

And does anyone ever use the Swivel engine or is it skipped for the Reliant?

I use the swivel exactly once, to create an SSTO rocket. After that, you should unlock the reliant and never bother with that garbage engine again.

Edited February 12, 2019 by MinimalMinmus

[zanie420]

9 minutes ago, MinimalMinmus said:

I use the swivel exactly once, to create an SSTO rocket. After that, you should unlock the reliant and never bother with that garbage engine again.

Same for me, until I started using them as the engines for LFBs attached on the ground with docking jrs. The gimbal comes in handy with the probes.

[Jacke]

Thanks, @MinimalMinmus and @zanie420.

And I started going through @IncongruousGoat's NCD run again and found this picture which explained it all.

On 3/20/2018 at 9:30 PM, IncongruousGoat said:

Well, here's the next installment. I'll try to post updates at least semi-regularly, but I can't make any promises. Real Life has a tendency to get in the way.

Chapter 2: You Spin Me Right Round

  Hide contents

....

Before I made that choice, though, there was one thing I wanted to do. A caveman classic, something I had never done before:

Build a Kerbal cage and get EVA science from low space. I didn't really know what to expect, but I figured it couldn't possibly hurt. Assuming I didn't screw up, of course.

Step 1: Insert Kerbal into cage

....

....

I've got over 19,000 funds, already unlocked T3 Survivability for the Barometer, and have enough science to unlock General Rocketry.  Haven't unlocked any of the liquid fuel tanks or engines as I've been really careful only unlocking the parts I need.  So, I wonder if for my first Kerbin orbital mission, I could get enough parts to go for a polar orbit to get High Altitude and Near Space EVA as well as everything from Far Space.

[zanie420]

Update: finally done, after some initial fuel mismanagement , and thus some tight deltaV margins,  then warping pass my intended departure to Kerbin..... it all worked out and got back with all 3 Gilly biomes science, worth 385 and allowing me to complete the tech tree . Album coming later today. I am completely wiped from this challenge.... it consumed me whole.

[Jacke]

Congrats, @zanie420, on your achievement!

As for me...

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

So, I wonder if for my first Kerbin orbital mission, I could get enough parts to go for a polar orbit to get High Altitude and Near Space EVA as well as everything from Far Space.

Well, that was wishful thinking.

I had to test that Kerbal cage outside of my career and I've found it to be damn hard.  Just getting it right to hold the Kerbal isn't enough.  Low down there's the drag balance and fighting that on top of whatever trajectory trying to hold, when straight up or into orbit.  And then, high up, there's mass balance, especially as stages get dropped and propellants get burned, making any mass offset more significant, usually leading to the near empty rocket pinwheeling.

With the drag, I don't think I'll be able to build an orbit rocket with a Kerbal cage.  I can't hold prograde well enough to get the efficiency needed.  Probably can do so with a sole Mk1 pod.

So, how do you deal with these challenges with flying a Kerbal cage?  Especially beyond Kerbin?  As it stands, I'm thinking I can get EVA Reports for Kerbin Flying High and Near Space, but beyond that I may just have to forego them.

Going after NCD Caveman, I am learning things about KSP I never knew.  Like as hard as it is flying a Kerbal cage, Bob can often survive better outside than Jeb does inside his pod.  In testing Bob's already survived two parachuteless high altitude plunges due to landing in the water.  At 45m/s.

[IncongruousGoat]

2 minutes ago, Jacke said:

So, how do you deal with these challenges with flying a Kerbal cage?  Especially beyond Kerbin?  As it stands, I'm thinking I can get EVA Reports for Kerbin Flying High and Near Space, but beyond that I may just have to forego them.

You don't. At least, you don't use a cage like that first one I built. The more aerodynamic, lower-mass way is to just use a "cage" made out of two capsules. There should be screenshots of such cages in any of the NCD reports (we all ended up using them). They're still not great to fly, but at least they can be put in orbit without Terriers.

[Mr. Peabody]

1 hour ago, zanie420 said:

Update: finally done. Album coming later today.

Ready and waiting to review. 

Spoiler