Mars 2020 mission is to include part I: sample return

[PB666]

I thought this was already a done deal.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-mars-2020-mission-step-toward-first-mars-sample-retrieval-2017-12

Apparently the robot will have a biotype search and destroy mission. Well not destroy, just search, remove, put in a canister, put it on this big explody thing, send it on a mission in the cold deep of space, then burning into earths atmosphere, landing but  . . . . .not destroy.

[NSEP]

Wait... does the 2020 rover have a Mars-to-Earth sample return thing built in, does the rover have to stick around to put the sample inside a seperate vehicle.

I think im missing something here, im just confused.

[PB666]

11 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Wait... does the 2020 rover have a Mars-to-Earth sample return thing built in, does the rover have to stick around to put the sample inside a seperate vehicle.

I think im missing something here, im just confused.

I dunno, they just talked about the search and destroy part, no details about how to get it back into space.

[Brotoro]

"Since landing Viking 1 on Mars in 1975, NASA has successfully put 7 rovers on Mars."

I quit reading there, since they obviously don't know what they are talking about.

[PB666]

They put alot I don't I know

Curiosity, Spirit, Opportunity, Sojourner . . . . .then two stationary probes Viking 1 and 2 ... everyone generally forgets about Phoenix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mars_Viking_11h016.png

 

[Brotoro]

Yes. Four rovers.

[PakledHostage]

13 hours ago, Brotoro said:

Yes. Four rovers.

I'll just leave this here:

ped·ant

ˈpednt/

noun

noun: pedant; plural noun: pedants

1. a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.

[Green Baron]

Defending @Brotoro. Pointing out when something is not correct is a good deed. We have more than enough incorrectly cited or described data.

Also, according to the Nasa 2020 site, no sample or probe will return to earth but a cache with selected samples set aside on the Marsian surface. Future missions can return these samples then.

So, Brotoro was imo absolutely right when he said that they obviously do not know what they are talking about.

 

Is the opinion of the

Green Baron

[PB666]

2 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Defending @Brotoro. Pointing out when something is not correct is a good deed. We have more than enough incorrectly cited or described data.

Also, according to the Nasa 2020 site, no sample or probe will return to earth but a cache with selected samples set aside on the Marsian surface. Future missions can return these samples then.

So, Brotoro was imo absolutely right when he said that they obviously do not know what they are talking about.

 

Is the opinion of the

Green Baron

Well, uh . . .as for the title, I placed "Part I:" exactly for that reason, there was nothing in that site that convinced me that they were attempting part II: The return in 2024?
The video basically was emphasizing 'Search and Collect'. So  yeah in that light he was being a bit (see def); having said that the site had great graphics but the site itself lacked many details that members of our group would appreciate.

The thread is begging for confirmation of Part I and what the plan is for Part II (obviously nothing more than handwaving in the video).

We spend alot of time in this forum talking about silly Mars landing. Consider the value that science got out of the Lunar sample return, some forbearance of fluff is warranted given the magnitude of fluff devoted to manned missions to Mars (including posts with trash-talk between astrotechnology companies)

Edited December 9, 2017 by PB666

[Green Baron]

As first hand information I only have the info from the jpl and nasa page:

https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mars2020/

Under mission/science they show that for now there are no more concrete plans after M2020. Maybe the site is not up to date, then i am wrong and must apologize for discrediting your source :-)

And:

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/missions/beyond-index.html

where the return mission is mentioned as a proposal without a date but not built into the rover.

*shrug*

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Green Baron

[PakledHostage]

17 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Defending @Brotoro. 

Fair enough. But dwelling on the difference between a "rover" and some other lander is a bit pedantic. The article is written for a general audience and is generally correct in its description of the Mars 2020 rover mission. Sure, nothing in the article is news to those of us on this forum: There has been talk of the mission collecting samples for another future mission to return to Earth for quite some time. But it may be news to the population at large, and we should be happy that word is getting out to that general audience about the mission's goals.

[kerbiloid]

When it doesn't have wheels, this yet doesn't mean that's not a rover.

Spoiler

 

[Green Baron]

I don't want to fight with you :-) Peace on Earth, Mars and in general beneath the stars.

If the general intent was a good one then ok, but the number given was wrong and the implication that the rover will send something back incorrect.

A Mars return mission, which would need a return rocket/ascent vehicle capable of achieving Mars escape and earth transfer dV is not in pipeline for now. Or am i wrong ?

Edit: oh, i do hope Mars 2020 actually arrives safely. I hope we get moar data about the water-and-life thing !

Edited December 9, 2017 by Green Baron

[magnemoe]

14 minutes ago, PakledHostage said:

Fair enough. But dwelling on the difference between a "rover" and some other lander is a bit pedantic. The article is written for a general audience and is generally correct in its description of the Mars 2020 rover mission. Sure, nothing in the article is news to those of us on this forum: There has been talk of the mission collecting samples for another future mission to return to Earth for quite some time. But it may be news to the population at large, and we should be happy that word is getting out to that general audience about the mission's goals.

Yes, i also think the plan is to store samples while it drive around, an later mission can retrieve the sample canister for return to earth. 

[PB666]

2 hours ago, PakledHostage said:

Fair enough. But dwelling on the difference between a "rover" and some other lander is a bit pedantic. The article is written for a general audience and is generally correct in its description of the Mars 2020 rover mission. Sure, nothing in the article is news to those of us on this forum: There has been talk of the mission collecting samples for another future mission to return to Earth for quite some time. But it may be news to the population at large, and we should be happy that word is getting out to that general audience about the mission's goals.

Thats what I thought, it sounded like it was going to be the next mission. So it came a surprise to me that this is news, but OTOH I just saw news that Musk is going to send his personal car into space, apparently because its not of any value to him. lol..

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

When it doesn't have wheels, this yet doesn't mean that's not a rover.

  Hide contents

 

Better.

[magnemoe]

3 minutes ago, PB666 said:

Thats what I thought, it sounded like it was going to be the next mission. So it came a surprise to me that this is news, but OTOH I just saw news that Musk is going to send his personal car into space, apparently because its not of any value to him. lol..

LOL, first Tesla is making an new roadster, secondary sending it to space is excellent advertising and they need an dummy payload anyway. 
 

[PakledHostage]

2 hours ago, Green Baron said:

A Mars return mission, which would need a return rocket/ascent vehicle capable of achieving Mars escape and earth transfer dV is not in pipeline for now. Or am i wrong ?

I have no idea, but when I read the Business Insider article that @PB666 linked above, it only mentioned collecting samples and caching them for some future mission (one with the requisite launch vehicle) to retrieve. It said nothing about the Mars 2020 rover mission itself including sample return capability.

Edited December 9, 2017 by PakledHostage

[Green Baron]

Yes, you are right, the article says nothing in that direction. But it is wrong with the number of rovers as @Brotoro pointed out.

So, i do have to apologize for that part.

22 hours ago, NSEP said:

Wait... does the 2020 rover have a Mars-to-Earth sample return thing built in, does the rover have to stick around to put the sample inside a seperate vehicle.

I think im missing something here, im just confused.

No, you were missing nothing. Nothing will be sent back by any robot. The Nasa pages (linked above) state only that samples will be kept in a "cache". A possible return mission is in a state of proposal, whatever that means. A return vehicle would be needed for that to happen.

It would, of course, be a giant leap in understanding Mars if we had samples here for doing all kind of cruel things to them :-)

[KG3]

Maybe the author of the article was getting confused by this sample return mission.  It seems like they don't know what they are talking about anyway and are getting more than one  mission conflated somehow.  Is there another sample retune mission planned for the surface of Mars?

 

NASA has selected a science instrument for an upcoming Japan-led sample return mission to the moons of Mars planned for launch in 2024. The instrument, a sophisticated neutron and gamma-ray spectrograph, will help scientists resolve one of the most enduring mysteries of the Red Planet—when and how the small moons formed.
The Mars Moons eXploration (MMX) mission is in development by the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA). MMX will visit the two Martian moons, Phobos and Deimos, land on the surface of Phobos, and collect a surface sample. Plans are for the sample to be returned to Earth in 2029. NASA is supporting the development of one of the spacecraft's suite of seven science instruments.

 

[PakledHostage]

12 minutes ago, KG3 said:

Maybe the author of the article was getting confused by this sample return mission.  It seems like they don't know what they are talking about anyway and are getting more than one  mission conflated somehow.  Is there another sample retune mission planned for the surface of Mars?

Are others reading a different article than the one that I am reading? When I click on @PB666's link, I see the following short article:

Quote

NASA has unveiled its plan for its next Mars rover, "Mars 2020," which will collect samples from the surface of the red planet. Following is a transcript of the video.

Since landing Viking 1 on Mars in 1975, NASA has successfully put 7 rovers on Mars. But there's still one major mission left: Send a sample from Mars back to Earth.

NASA is taking a huge step toward that goal in 2020 with its "Mars 2020" rover. The Mars 2020 comes with some major upgrades. Its radar can search for water or ice 30 feet below the surface. It has an ultraviolet laser that can read carbon atoms to see if they could've been left by ancient carbon-based life.

It can also drill into solid rock to retrieve samples. These samples are critical to NASA's plan. The rover will accumulate a collection of samples. A future mission will pick them up and launch them back to Earth. So, any potential life that the Mars 2020 rover may miss could be found in labs here on Earth.

NASA has narrowed the landing site down to 3 possible locations. Each spot once had environments which could have harbored life. The rover will launch in the summer of 2020 and touch down February 2021.

Where is the conflation of multiple missions?

[KG3]

I thought that maybe the author from Businessinsider.com who wrote the article about the mars 2020 rover might have gotten it confused with the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency's MMX (Marian Moon Exploration) sample and return mission of Phobos.    

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_Moons_Exploration

But you are right, that was a stretch on my part.  They do clearly say that a return mission is for some point in the future and is not part of the mars 2020 mission itself.  They do seem to be a bit confused about how many rovers are on mars.

1 hour ago, PakledHostage said:

 

Where is the conflation of multiple missions?

 

[kerbiloid]

Looks like the First Martian Expedition crew will consist of an overseer, driver and a brigade of lumpers.
Anyway they will have no time for anything except handling the stones collected by a dozen of robots during previous thirty years, and bringing them to the ship.
 

Spoiler

First Martian Expedition in the artist's imagination.  (Archive of the AEASA _{Ancient Egypt NASA}, "Future Plans" section)

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

[magnemoe]

12 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Yes, you are right, the article says nothing in that direction. But it is wrong with the number of rovers as @Brotoro pointed out.

So, i do have to apologize for that part.

No, you were missing nothing. Nothing will be sent back by any robot. The Nasa pages (linked above) state only that samples will be kept in a "cache". A possible return mission is in a state of proposal, whatever that means. A return vehicle would be needed for that to happen.

It would, of course, be a giant leap in understanding Mars if we had samples here for doing all kind of cruel things to them :-)

An orbital rocket can be made very small on Mars, think anti tank missile, this would then have to dock with an return module in orbit, transfer the sample, drop the docking and transfer mechanism together with the orbital rocket upper stage and do an return to earth burn. 
You would also need to load the sample canister into the orbital rocket on mars, this all will require that the rover still works well then you land. 
In short its an very high risk, high payoff mission. 

11 hours ago, KG3 said:

Maybe the author of the article was getting confused by this sample return mission.  It seems like they don't know what they are talking about anyway and are getting more than one  mission conflated somehow.  Is there another sample retune mission planned for the surface of Mars?

NASA has selected a science instrument for an upcoming Japan-led sample return mission to the moons of Mars planned for launch in 2024. The instrument, a sophisticated neutron and gamma-ray spectrograph, will help scientists resolve one of the most enduring mysteries of the Red Planet—when and how the small moons formed.
The Mars Moons eXploration (MMX) mission is in development by the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA). MMX will visit the two Martian moons, Phobos and Deimos, land on the surface of Phobos, and collect a surface sample. Plans are for the sample to be returned to Earth in 2029. NASA is supporting the development of one of the spacecraft's suite of seven science instruments.
 

Finally it has been an lack of interest in Mars moons, they are interesting and might also be very useful for an future manned mars mission for resources. 

[Green Baron]

4 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

An orbital rocket can be made very small on Mars, think anti tank missile, this would then have to dock with an return module in orbit, transfer the sample, drop the docking and transfer mechanism together with the orbital rocket upper stage and do an return to earth burn. 
You would also need to load the sample canister into the orbital rocket on mars, this all will require that the rover still works well then you land. 
In short its an very high risk, high payoff mission. 

That is the proposal. But there is no such rocket and no concrete mission plans, and the rover will return nothing. Maybe in a few decades with follow up missions ... first of all the rover has to get there !

Edited December 10, 2017 by Green Baron

[Nibb31]

Yes, there really isn't much point in retrieving samples and storing them until another mission comes to get them.

There are too many things that can go wrong in this scenario:

• 2020 Rover breaks down, samples are trapped inside.
• MSR lander lands out of range of 2020 Rover

If there is another mission, it might as well carry a small Sojourner-class rover that has its own sample retrieval gear.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Nibb31