Air Superiority Fighter Competition Continued

[Steven Kerman]

59 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

3v3, standard rules of aircraft starting from both airfields, meet across the water.

I've done so much testing, but haven't kept a victory count. I'm fairly sure it's at least 50/50 chance, but my last few rounds of testing I can remember have been fairly solid victories. At the least, I rarely lose a match without taking 1 or 2 down. Seems to come down to who fairs better out of the initial merge... and if there's no Sidewinder friendly fire incidents on my team lol.

Things get a bit weird when I spectate aircraft directly and results get more confusimg; I was told earlier in the thread that it has some sort of effect. So I watch from an observer aircraft (that's the one in the pic, not the drones I actually send to fight; I just like watching in style) that stays above the combat out of their way; combat is typically 3-4km away. I'd go in closer, but I'd probably have to do it in a boat or something that doesn't significant generate heat.

oh yeah, I think that's where the confusion came in. The pic isn't of my fighter, that's just the observer.

That also reminds me, I should grab the fighters from the queue and test against them; I've only tested against the leaderboard at this point. 

You could switch guns to not target grounded ships since they wouldnt be able to fire missiles.

[exbyde]

9 minutes ago, dundun93 said:

1. @exbyde does not use a chase plane. Results will be different when he does it. He switches between plane during rounds.

2. Dogfights should start at 15km( not 8) your plane better have enough range to go 35km and back. @exbyde actually does it at 35km now.

3. Please show me videos of this.

it sounds like he was saying that he was starting the fights from each runway. If he's doing that and setting the dogfight to start at 3 meters, it does not matter, both aircraft start approaching each other in guard mode. As long as the distance between the aircraft is larger than start distance, the fight starts.

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

3v3, standard rules of aircraft starting from both airfields, meet across the water.

I've done so much testing, but haven't kept a victory count. I'm fairly sure it's at least 50/50 chance, but my last few rounds of testing I can remember have been fairly solid victories. At the least, I rarely lose a match without taking 1 or 2 down. Seems to come down to who fairs better out of the initial merge... and if there's no Sidewinder friendly fire incidents on my team lol.

Things get a bit weird when I spectate aircraft directly and results get more confusimg; I was told earlier in the thread that it has some sort of effect. So I watch from an observer aircraft (that's the one in the pic, not the drones I actually send to fight; I just like watching in style) that stays above the combat out of their way; combat is typically 3-4km away. I'd go in closer, but I'd probably have to do it in a boat or something that doesn't significant generate heat.

oh yeah, I think that's where the confusion came in. The pic isn't of my fighter, that's just the observer.

That also reminds me, I should grab the fighters from the queue and test against them; I've only tested against the leaderboard at this point. 

As much as you may see a difference between my dogfights and your observed ones, its not really viable to have dogfights observed from 3-4km away. Would take away a lot of the excitement and also up part counts. You are welcome to do whatever you please with the aircraft on here, as they are submitted publicly, but there is not a way to implement your suggestion effectively without some compromises.

10 minutes ago, Steven Kerman said:

You could switch guns to not target grounded ships since they wouldnt be able to fire missiles.

also not viable because the aircraft don't always meet in the middle. Remember, BDAC allows for a speed envelope of 800m/s, though most of the aircraft are somewhere between 160 and 325. this makes a huge difference in intercept point, depending on what is flying

[53miner53]

3 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Were you trying to fly recon over the battle with an SR-71? Lol. 

Lol, not exactly... it had 3 whiplashes and was a tailsitting VTOL. Otherwise might as well have been!

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, exbyde said:

 

As much as you may see a difference between my dogfights and your observed ones, its not really viable to have dogfights observed from 3-4km away. Would take away a lot of the excitement and also up part counts. You are welcome to do whatever you please with the aircraft on here, as they are submitted publicly, but there is not a way to implement your suggestion effectively without some compromises.

 

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you do it. But for me, it gives me a more... unbiased feel when I test my fighters? Something like that. Gives me a good idea of where they would stand.

I fully get being up and close to get the excitement of the action and I'm not against that either.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Box of Stardust]

3 hours ago, dundun93 said:

Right now, I'm afraid of the Cooke and du-3X.

 

Sorry, no videos. But I did these tests.

Du-3X was sorta tough. Did 2 matches from an observer, 2 from Du-3X, switching only when the aircraft got destroyed and then to another Du-3X, and 2 from PEGASys-D1, same rule. Won 5/6, but each one was still fairly tough. Never got away with all 3, usually won the match only by 1.

 

Cookie.

Yeah.

Uh.

@Eidahlil still being him.

You know, I saw the pictures of it when he first announced it, and read the things talked about it, but I still wasn't prepared to actually see it in game.

It's too nuts. I've only done 1 match and I think I concede.

[exbyde]

17 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Cookie.

Yeah.

Uh.

@Eidahlil still being him.

You know, I saw the pictures of it when he first announced it, and read the things talked about it, but I still wasn't prepared to actually see it in game.

It's too nuts. I've only done 1 match and I think I concede.

There is a reason why "designed by Eidahlil" is in the mod slot in the roster instead of actual mods for his craft XD

Edited February 25, 2018 by exbyde

[Box of Stardust]

35 minutes ago, exbyde said:

There is a reason why "designed by Eidahlil" is in the mod slot instead of actual mods XD

I know lol.

 

But on further testing, the results have been... interesting.

The Cookie is certainly very unconventional and it can do surprisingly well. It goes against the current trend of maneuverable microfighters by instead being... an angry flying cloud.

However, it appears that winning against it isn't impossible at all. It might be a flying turret of a ridiculous hailstorm of 30mm shells, but that seems to put a lot of it up to chance. I'm running test matches going through each of my 'spectating modes' and... I'm winning? Not definitively, but... maybe 50/50?

My verdict on the Cookie is that it's the most luck-based match yet. Its going against the trend of maneuverability by not bothering with much maneuvering at all (or rather, doesn't bother with aerodynamics and instead kind of wallows around like it's in zero-g) kind of puts it up to the enemy fighters to dictate how the match goes. The GAU-8 storm is kind of luck-based as well; the Cookie will almost never be on the tail of another fighter like most other conventional fighters here. Not just that, but GAU-8 overheat adds another randomness dynamic. And the GAU-8s don' seem to insta-gib parts as hard as the Vulcans do when a hit lands; my planes have actually survived with parts on 'critical heat'. I think I might chalk that up to the relative inaccuracy of the Cookie's shooting.

It seems like the best way to deal with it is energy fighting, boom-and-zooming. Make a run, then get out of range before the Cookie slews onto target. And if the Cookie and your fighter are going head-on... best hope your fighter lands hits first. And really, I think a lot of the match is just surviving the initial merge with at least 2 fighters.

I'll do tests with other fighters from the competition and see how their programming and build characteristics holds up.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Box of Stardust said:

I know lol.

 

But on further testing, the results have been... interesting.

The Cookie is certainly very unconventional and it can do surprisingly well. It goes against the current trend of maneuverable microfighters by instead being... an angry flying cloud.

However, it appears that winning against it isn't impossible at all. It might be a flying turret of a ridiculous hailstorm of 30mm shells, but that seems to put a lot of it up to chance. I'm running test matches going through each of my 'spectating modes' and... I'm winning? Not definitively, but... maybe 50/50?

My verdict on the Cookie is that it's the most luck-based match yet. Its going against the trend of maneuverability by not bothering with much maneuvering at all (or rather, doesn't bother with aerodynamics and instead kind of wallows around like it's in zero-g) kind of puts it up to the enemy fighters to dictate how the match goes. The GAU-8 storm is kind of luck-based as well; the Cookie will almost never be on the tail of another fighter like most other conventional fighters here. Not just that, but GAU-8 overheat adds another randomness dynamic. And the GAU-8s don' seem to insta-gib parts as hard as the Vulcans do when a hit lands; my planes have actually survived with parts on 'critical heat'. I think I might chalk that up to the relative inaccuracy of the Cookie's shooting.

It seems like the best way to deal with it is energy fighting, boom-and-zooming. Make a run, then get out of range before the Cookie slews onto target. And if the Cookie and your fighter are going head-on... best hope your fighter lands hits first. And really, I think a lot of the match is just surviving the initial merge with at least 2 fighters.

I'll do tests with other fighters from the competition and see how their programming and build characteristics holds up.

Just stop bragging and wait until @exbyde does it.

[Box of Stardust]

I'm not trying to, I'm just reporting on what I test.

For the record, as I expected, the Rabid Squirrel did really good (I think better actually) against the Cookie.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

I'm not trying to, I'm just reporting on what I test.

For the record, as I expected, the Rabid Squirrel did really good (I think better actually) against the Cookie.

Ok. *sigh*...

[exbyde]

Ah christ...I need to keep a last page tally on the queue. Updating now...

[HeroBrian_333]

So... who made the hive princess? I nerd to pm them about drone behavior.

[exbyde]

7 minutes ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

So... who made the hive princess? I nerd to pm them about drone behavior.

@Eidahlil

 

Alright, queue is up to date. IF YOUR AIRCRAFT IS MISSING, LET ME KNOW IMMEDIATELY!

Also, lets PLEASE try to keep mod counts below 5. I understand there are some of us that appreciate scale.

@DiscoveryPlanet Your PAK-FA is both over the weight and part limits for unlimited, and will be put in super unless that was unintentional

[exbyde]

Alright, lets get things started with...maybe a recap? i don't remember putting this one up, but Du-1b vs A-25

@dundun92 holds his #5 spot up against @dundun93's #5 position, leaving all three of them in the #5 position.

[Box of Stardust]

Yeah, that's the right one. Thanks for the queue update.

[ZLM-Master]

Gentlemen start your engines ^ I'm in a haste to see that . gl&hf , thx for the queue update

[DunnoAnyThing]

Man, these fighters are HOT!

I wish I could make one that could make it to the top...

Never achieved enough superiority in testing my planes against the ones here. I'm not sure if I can make it...

Any tips?

[goduranus]

Here's some of my ideas on how to do well

Basic ideas:

• Wingspam, get more wings than it looks like you could possibly need
• High thrust to weight, aim for thrust to weight of about 3:1. so for a 6 ton plane, aim for at least 180kNof maximum thrust
• Right click to reduce total amount of fuel carried, to further reduce weight and increase the thrust to weight ratio
• Gunspam, get 3-4 20mm 4 Vulcans or 2-3 30mm GAUs to give a good volume of fire, and spread them out or put them on slightly wobbly parts to get a good spread
• Put some reaction wheels on to increase control authority
• ECM is a must, it prevents radar missile lock, so you don't lose the initiative when you are forced to dodge missiles
• Hook ECM to Gear or SAS action group with "Enable ECM", not "Toggle ECM", so that ECM activates when the BDArmory AI tries to take off, instead of trusting the AI to toggle it on when a missile is already headed toward it. Then it'd be forced to dodge and lose its initiaitve
• Use the Airplane Plus Tiger engine, it's the best engine with very good electricity generation to power radar and ECM without interruption

Advanced ideas:

• Minimize moment of inertia, moment of inertia is what resists a turn, minimize it by putting heavy parts near the center of mass so you plane will get more angular acceleration with less effort
• Shifting center of lift with pitch control surfaces, by putting center of lift very close behind the center of mass, and have pure pitch control surfaces very far behind, you can cause center of lift to shift in front of the center of mass when the control surface turns into the airstream, greatly enhancing pitch authority
• Vertical wingspam, you want vertically placed wings to reduce sideslip,  they should be place much like the horizontal wings, in that they are symmetrical above and below the center of mass otherwise sideslip will cause unwanted roll, and make sure that vertical wings and rudder together should have a center of lift slightly behind the center of mass to maximize yaw maneuverability
• Limiting control surface authority to improve response time, experimentally I found that you want every control surface to be able to respond in 0.3 second, so you have to look into the parts info of the control surface, and set an authority multiplier usually below 100, that caps the control surface to how much it can turn in 0.3 seconds
• Thrust vectored engines might make the plane more detectable by IR missiles from the front, by spewing exhaust particle effects(which BDArmory wiki says is what IR missiles lock onto) out to the side of the plane where they are not shielded by the airplane's body.

Edited February 26, 2018 by goduranus

[exbyde]

3 hours ago, goduranus said:

Here's some of my ideas on how to do well

*a small bible of very valuable tips*

nice

Alright folks, its time

Its time for the re-submission of the Crucifier, @goduranus' Crusader. But how will it fare against @dundun93's a25?

And the crusader crucifies the a-25, placing it on the #5 spot in the roster!

And don't worry, there will be more dogfights tonight!

[Box of Stardust]

Wait, so how does the #5 spot work if there's three tied in it? Does the Crusader just fight the other two to move up?

 

Oh yeah, and apparently the Drone Princess link on the leaderboard links to the Pike. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[exbyde]

Just now, Box of Stardust said:

Wait, so how does the #5 spot work if there's three tied in it? Does the Crusader just fight the other two to move up?

How it works is dundun92 is always in 5th place. There is no tie, its a joke.

[Box of Stardust]

1 minute ago, exbyde said:

How it works is dundun92 is always in 5th place. There is no tie, its a joke.

Oh. I guess I didn't read where that happened in the thread.

[Box of Stardust]

Hey @exbyde, do you wait until a fighter is going to battle to download it? Or do you download them right away (as in, if it's on the queue list, it's downloaded)?

Because I have another AI update to submit to my craft because I just "learned" how to fully use BDA's Weapons Manager. I figure I'd just keep updating the KerbalX page if you don't download them right away. If you do download them right away though... well, I guess I'll post up a new link for you to update (some time later).

It's an update for the PEGASys-D, so it's not in any rush since there's quite a queue to get through.

[exbyde]

13 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Hey @exbyde, do you wait until a fighter is going to battle to download it? Or do you download them right away (as in, if it's on the queue list, it's downloaded)?

Because I have another AI update to submit to my craft because I just "learned" how to fully use BDA's Weapons Manager. I figure I'd just keep updating the KerbalX page if you don't download them right away. If you do download them right away though... well, I guess I'll post up a new link for you to update (some time later).

It's an update for the PEGASys-D, so it's not in any rush since there's quite a queue to get through.

Fighters are downloaded just before testing.

[Box of Stardust]

21 minutes ago, exbyde said:

Fighters are downloaded just before testing.

Ah, okay. I wasn't sure if this was, in fact, the correct interpretation of what was stated in the rules about updating fighters.