Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[TiktaalikDreaming]

1 hour ago, Eskandare said:

In regard to modding:

Although modding, which should be a considered a deliberate function of the game itself, should be tolerated as long as the mod/plugin/software in question is designed specifically for the intent and use for the software being licensed. The mod/plugin/software is not an unauthorized copy the licensed material or is designed to circumvent the license agreement (in the case of Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.) Or in the case of Blizzard v. BnetD, there was a deliberate copying of copyrighted code, and deliberately used reverse engineering to circumvent the EULA license outright. 

I figure if you are not trying to make money from any mod or trying to circumvent the license, then modding is allowed.

While I totally agree with everything there, clarification is needed because all the mods have licenses.  We need something explicit regarding how the new EULA interacts with mod licenses.  Especially for old mods that have been through several developers.

[snkiz]

28 minutes ago, Greenfire32 said:

"WHAT GAMEPLAY INFORMATION DOES THE COMPANY COLLECT?

When you use products or services on internet-capable hardware, the Company may receive information regarding your gameplay without any additional notice to you or actions taken by you. The Company will not receive personal information such as your name and address*, but may receive other information such as a console ID, gaming service ID, game achievements, game scores and performance, IP address, MAC address, or other device ID*, other console/device use information, or other information and statistics regarding your usage of the games. Information about gameplay may be collected while you are offline and transmitted to the Company when you next connect to the Internet whether or not you are currently logged into your Internet Connection from your console, handheld, mobile device, computer, or other gaming platform. The Company may combine the information with your personal information and use such information as set forth in this Privacy Policy whether or not you register for or use the Online Services. The Company may also monitor gameplay information by automated means to ensure that software and services are used in accordance with applicable policies, including the Terms of Service and the End User License agreement. The Company reserves the right to terminate your license if you violate these policies."

(*This means that, yes, they can in fact get your name and address)
------------
lmao

Except, as of now KSP doesn't have an online component. They have agreement with steam. this is a blanket clause.

22 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

While I totally agree with everything there, clarification is needed because all the mods have licenses.  We need something explicit regarding how the new EULA interacts with mod licenses.  Especially for old mods that have been through several developers.

They aren't going to paint themselves into a corner by saying anything specific. And they can't declare anything contrary to someone else's license. The long and short the EULA pretends those licenses don't exist for it own protection.

Edited February 25, 2018 by snkiz
spelling

[Eskandare]

13 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

While I totally agree with everything there, clarification is needed because all the mods have licenses.  We need something explicit regarding how the new EULA interacts with mod licenses.  Especially for old mods that have been through several developers.

I am hoping that will be addressed soon, as I wasn't able to find any single precedent that provides any clues to a possible decision on the subject. In the current license state, one outcome is that the EULA invalidates itself through violating an already existing license, or the second outcome is that no mods will be updated to 1.4. Once again this is merely speculation.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Eskandare

[snkiz]

6 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

I am hoping that will be addressed soon, as I wasn't able to find any single precedent that provides any clues to a possible decision on the subject. In the current license state, one outcome is that the EULA invalidates itself through violating an already existing license, or the second outcome is that no mods will be updated to 1.4.

They'd have to remove the blessed framework in place to have a leg to stand on. Otherwise that part of the EULA is invalid where it could apply, and they know this. It doesn't mean they couldn't still try. I think Fanfic and streaming is the more legit concern, there is precedent to restrict and/or exploit it. Nintendo does it all the time.

[Manwith Noname]

2 hours ago, Brent Kerman said:

What about boycotting the DLC?

It was not my intention to make such a statement in that manner. Calling for a boycott isn't what I would call negotiation. That said, if a group of people do not accept the current EULA / Terms of Service, and wish to negotiate them, they are kind of required to not buy the DLC, or at least, they would not really be in a good position to install and use it if they did buy it. The problem is, gamers are generally compulsive and terrible at being disciplined...

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Eskandare said:

Hahah, it's not fraud if someone  has signed a renegotiated contract without reading it first, but that is my opinion.

That depends. Were the bank put on notice that amendments had been made? Were the amendments obvious?

Without going in to my work history, at one point I was coming in to contact with negotiated contracts on a daily basis (I wasn't doing the negotiating but I would need to read the contract before my day to know what had and had not been agreed). These would often be the original contract in print, with amendments clearly visible by striking out and hand written lines, which would have then been faxed or scanned and emailed back. Not saying that is typical mind you, just what I have experienced.

Either way, kudos to that guy for pulling one over on the bank by using the same methodology they use on "customers". Made me chuckle.

 

Also, I think someone mentioned legalese is used to define things clearly and remove loopholes but my personal view is the opposite. Laws do that. Agreements and contracts "appear" to do that with legalese but generally leave ambiguity and wiggle room for corporate shenanigans.

[Benjamin Kerman]

27 minutes ago, Manwith Noname said:

Also, I think someone mentioned legalese is used to define things clearly and remove loopholes but my personal view is the opposite. Laws do that. Agreements and contracts "appear" to do that with legalese but generally leave ambiguity and wiggle room for corporate shenanigans.

That was me, so sorry if I mislead people. It seems to me that the way (at least in theory) an agreement works is that the terms laid out ARE the terms, and are to be taken exactly at face value. (At least, that's how I would do it)

[Manwith Noname]

@Benjamin Kerman

There's no need to apologise. I agree that a contract / agreement should be written to remove ambiguity and make things clear but I personally find that the majority of software EULAs and Terms of service don't really do that. That's all I'm really saying. Particularly in this instance, the new EULA and terms of service are generic and not specific to KSP, so it's almost impossible for them to cover everything clearly enough. They are written with a view that they can be interpreted with some looseness to capture things they might otherwise have not thought about and generally cover all their products, then the lawyers can argue on a case by case basis as and when they do want to enforce something.

Something else I can't stand is "privacy policy". If you read them, the company will pretend to be interested in your privacy and tell you all about how they will do everything to keep your data secure, then wash all that good will away by saying they might pass it on to third parties who don't hold the same standards. Which, of course, is about limiting liability more than anything else but it's still lame.

[Nertea]

As a fairly prolific modder, the wording of the modding-related clause in the new EULA saddens me, not so much in the sense that I oppose a company's need to cover itself in legalese to protect itself from UGC, but because this modding community is more or less the only one I've participated in (out of several) where that hasn't been an issue. That may be over now, and it makes KSP a lot less special to me. 

I believe that modders operating without the vague threat of corporate takedown and acquisition is partly what made KSP successful in its early pre-0.2 days. This direction (again generally seen as necessary due to rabid corporate fear of its users drawing weiners on rockets with TTI proudly shown in a screenshot caption) would create an environment that seems likely to limit that. The best people won't build open-source software that isn't legally theirs or spend hundreds of hours creating art that has an overarching copyright term for no pay. So that's unfortunate!

It'll definitely push me away for sure!

[Eskandare]

10 hours ago, Nertea said:

As a fairly prolific modder, the wording of the modding-related clause in the new EULA saddens me, not so much in the sense that I oppose a company's need to cover itself in legalese to protect itself from UGC, but because this modding community is more or less the only one I've participated in (out of several) where that hasn't been an issue. That may be over now, and it makes KSP a lot less special to me. 

This! This is what Take Two should be absolutely worried about. The EULA, in this case does not prevent damages to the company but causes self inflicted harm by alienating the community that supports the product, and thus losing money from the purchase of Squad. Sure, there are many assets from Squad that are desirable, plus obtaining cute Kerbals, and having an IP to water down and over merchandise, but the overall outcome could be disastrous for a company. Imagine, if you will, should the community be alienated from Kerbal, they aren't alienating some little gaming community but alienating the entire aerospace industry that has had a very watchful eye on Kerbal Space Program. This is and not limited to NASA, SpaceX, and the ESA. There are professors and students, engineers, mechanics, administrators, etc. many have who been turned on to Kerbal and have played it themselves and/or got it for their kids to interest them in aerospace. A community collapse would be a disaster! Once Wall Street hears about it, and they will (yes, a people who will make a financial decision if a CEO sneezes) will undoubtedly make their financial decisions about a company who allowed massive fallout from an industry far lager then the scope of their silly little video games. This isn't Grand Theft Auto , or a community of whiney teenage gamers, this is playing with fire. I can just imagine the article in Forbes, "Kerbal Crashes, Squad's Parent Company Alienates Aerospace Industry!"

Yes, ostensibly, we can still mod in KSP 1.4, but the EULA does not support that. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Eskandare

[Just Jim]

What happens if someone refuses to sign this thing???

[Eskandare]

1 minute ago, Just Jim said:

What happens if someone refuses to sign this thing???

You won't be installing or playing the game, simple.

[Just Jim]

5 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

You won't be installing or playing the game, simple.

Woah... what???  So you're saying I have to sign over the rights to Emiko just to keep playing??? That's extortion!!!   

NOT HAPPENING!!!  

Edited February 26, 2018 by Just Jim

[severedsolo]

1 minute ago, Just Jim said:

Woah... what???  So you're saying I have to sign over the rights to Emiko just to keep playing???  NOT HAPPENING!!!  

Nah, the TOS is specifically for the Online Services (read forum, possibly the store, and even more remotely possibly Curseforge (don't know if that counts though))

Edited February 26, 2018 by severedsolo

[Eskandare]

Just now, Just Jim said:

Woah... what???  So you're saying I have to sign over the rights to Emiko just to keep playing???  NOT HAPPENING!!!  

The EULA works like this, you agree to the terms by, clicking 'OK', by installing or using the software.

1 minute ago, severedsolo said:

Nah, the TOS is specifically for the Online Services (read forum)

This doesn't just encompass an online element but whole use of the software if you read it carefully. 

[Just Jim]

6 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

The EULA works like this, you agree to the terms by, clicking 'OK', by installing or using the software.

Wait... I already own the software... how can they prevent me from using it if it's already on my computer?

[Guest]

What did I miss? Take-Two can take all my characters, dialogue, designs and plots and make (or lose) millions on KERBFLEET: THE ANIMATED SAGA!  ?????

Yeah, I kind of knew that going in  I never paid anyone for a license to create a comic based on Squad's intellectual property, so I can't really expect to reserve any rights for my derivative works. Reminds me a bit of the relationship between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko... I would hope they'd throw me a bone though, if for no other reason than to avoid a backlash from my DOZENS of fans. Anyway, back to whatever I was doing before.

[Angelo Kerman]

1 minute ago, Just Jim said:

Wait... I already own the software... how can they prevent me from using it if it's already on my computer?

They can't. What they can do is prevent use of future versions of the software. In this case, KSP 1.4.

[Just Jim]

Gaaaa... now I'm more confused what to do than ever... it's a big deal... it's not a big deal... they can stop you from playing... no, they can't... 

I just want to keep writing Emiko, without having to worry someone is going to some in and say I have to change this or that... or I have to stop all together... or I'm shut out. I'm really starting to freak out over all this.

[Hans Dorn]

Looks like 1.4 is off to GREAT start.

 

[Angelo Kerman]

3 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Gaaaa... now I'm more confused what to do than ever... it's a big deal... it's not a big deal... they can stop you from playing... no, they can't... 

I just want to keep writing Emiko, without having to worry someone is going to some in and say I have to change this or that... or I have to stop all together... or I'm shut out. I'm really starting to freak out over all this.

That's why, short of hiring an intellectual properties lawyer to explain the new EULA, we need @SQUAD to clarify what the new Terms of Service are. How, for example, do the new terms of service fall in line with their desire to support the modding community.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Gaaaa... now I'm more confused what to do than ever... it's a big deal... it's not a big deal... they can stop you from playing... no, they can't... 

I just want to keep writing Emiko, without having to worry someone is going to some in and say I have to change this or that... or I have to stop all together... or I'm shut out. I'm really starting to freak out over all this.

Jim, my read of this is as follows:

1. If you want to use the Forum you have to accept the new Terms.
2. If you want to play any version of the Game you have to agree to the Terms that come with that version.
3. You can create anything you want based on the game, which TakeTwo owns.
4. You can't make money off the things you create.
5. They can.

1 minute ago, Angel-125 said:

That's why, short of hiring an intellectual properties lawyer to explain the new EULA, we need @SQUAD to clarify what the new Terms of Service are. How, for example, do the new terms of service fall in line with their desire to support the modding community.

I'm a lot more concerned for the modders than I am for us writers. The Company could well have the right to offer the entire Wild Blue Industries catalog as DLC, paying the creators nothing. They may have always had this right, not sure...but now that DLC is a thing for KSP, this is a bit more real.

Anyway, if you need me, I'll just be over here finishing my mission (eventually) in V1.1.3  

[Kerbart]

While it’s not unreasonable to think that there’s a bit of overreacting on a boilerplate EULA, I do agree that:

0: the value of “while it was written like that, it’s not supposed to be carried out that way” in a courtroom.

T2 should take that into consideration for a game that relies so heavily on modding, that the mere threat of having the ability to say “all your mods are belong to us now” will not be taken so lightly. I’m sure the language is a result from the infamous “hot coffee mod,” but this is a civilized game about science and space exploration, not a racy car theft game.

[Johnny Wishbone]

11 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Gaaaa... now I'm more confused what to do than ever... it's a big deal... it's not a big deal... they can stop you from playing... no, they can't... 

I just want to keep writing Emiko, without having to worry someone is going to some in and say I have to change this or that... or I have to stop all together... or I'm shut out. I'm really starting to freak out over all this.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But it seems to me that the best thing for you to do is to get a lawyer and start protecting yourself. Take Two certainly isn't going to do that for you. If you are that concerned about your story, and/or have even the slightest idea about publishing it at any point in the future, it would be worth it to get a lawyer now to legally establish your copyright to all your existing works as well as try to negotiate a license with T2 for use of their IP in your story.

At the very least, have your lawyer contact their lawyers for clarification on your concerns. Remember, any communication with them is going to go through their lawyers who have a vested interest in making things as one sided in Take Two's favor as they can get away with. If you don't know how to deal with that, you're going to get rolled.

[severedsolo]

46 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

This doesn't just encompass an online element but whole use of the software if you read it carefully. 

 

It says and I quote:

Quote

This document constitutes an agreement (the "Agreement") between you and the United States company Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., its parents, subsidiaries, and affiliates, (the "Company," "we," "us," and "our") that governs the relationship between you and the Company with respect to your use of the Online Services.

I'll grant you that it does basically say "this should be taken in addition to the EULA" - but my read of that is that if you were to only use the software, and no online services, you would just be held to the EULA. The nasty little clause that is causing the issue is quite different in the EULA. In fact the EULA is actually quite specific that only stuff actually created in the game is covered, whereas the TOS state "any submissions ..... of any nature whatsoever"

If I've missed something, feel free to point me in the right direction, but I don't see how you can sign up to an agreement specifically for the online services, if you don't use said services, or how launching KSP could possibly be counted as using the online services.

Edited February 26, 2018 by severedsolo

[Ultimate Steve]

2 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

whereas the TOS state "any submissions ..... of any nature whatsoever"

So, anything we post on the forum is owned by TT?

Cool, let's post famous music videos everywhere and see how that works out.