[1.5.0 <-> 1.8.1] Kerbalism v3.2

[subyng]

The non sensical science system in stock is why I've just abandoned it altogether in career. I use Tree Toppler to unlock all R&D nodes right at the start of the game, and enable first time purchase of parts. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by subyng

[baldamundo]

5 minutes ago, subyng said:

The non sensical science system is why I've just abandoned it altogether in career. I use Tree Toppler to unlock all R&D nodes right at the start of the game, and enable first time purchase of parts. 

Another option would be to disable the stock science experiments and then tweak the settings of a mod like Kerbal Construction Time or Monthly Budgets which provide ways of converting funding into science points.

[mikegarrison]

2 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

As for science labs: I think the Kerbalism approach is correct in the way that a lab can't produce science out of nothing. But in realitiy, the samples on the ISS don't com from the moon, but from Earth.

If we ever have a science lab on the moon, I bet that the things being studied there will mainly be people and stuff found on the moon.

I think that the stock science labs work fine. They do not "create science out of nothing" -- you need to collect data and bring it to the lab to be analyzed over time (and using power). The main problem with them in stock is the same problem that stock KSP has in general, which is that time itself costs nothing. Life support mods (like Kerbalism) fix that, which means that time is costly, which also means that a science lab that develops science over time is not "free". If I were in charge of Kerbalism (which I'm not), I would allow the stock science lab science mechanism. But c'est la vie.

Once I got used to it, I liked the Kerbalism science experiment tweaks. My issues were mainly balance -- it was really hard to generate enough science from the early nodes to unlock the later nodes. Once I could get surface samples, science started flowing. But until then I was really scraping by on the science, including trading most of my reputation gains for science points. I do think the experiments that take many days need to be made free of power requirements. They are effectively WAY too expensive. You need power to live for 15 days and then you also need even more power to do the science experiment?

I eventually figured out that the seismometer is meant to be left in place on a landed probe (or, I guess, a long-term base). It's basically wasted on a lander that only stays on the surface long enough to plant a flag and collect a few samples. Unfortunately, by the time I had half a dozen landed probes out there gathering seismic data, I started to develop frame rate issues due (I think) to the computational load of so many ships being actively tracked all at once.

I didn't keep playing long enough to be sure, but I suspect Kerbalism would have trouble generating enough science to unlock the higher nodes of the Community Tech Tree. For those, science labs (with the stock mechanism) are really useful.

[lordcirth]

4 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

If we ever have a science lab on the moon, I bet that the things being studied there will mainly be people and stuff found on the moon.

I think that the stock science labs work fine. They do not "create science out of nothing" -- you need to collect data and bring it to the lab to be analyzed over time (and using power). The main problem with them in stock is the same problem that stock KSP has in general, which is that time itself costs nothing. Life support mods (like Kerbalism) fix that, which means that time is costly, which also means that a science lab that develops science over time is not "free". If I were in charge of Kerbalism (which I'm not), I would allow the stock science lab science mechanism. But c'est la vie.

Once I got used to it, I liked the Kerbalism science experiment tweaks. My issues were mainly balance -- it was really hard to generate enough science from the early nodes to unlock the later nodes. Once I could get surface samples, science started flowing. But until then I was really scraping by on the science, including trading most of my reputation gains for science points. I do think the experiments that take many days need to be made free of power requirements. They are effectively WAY too expensive. You need power to live for 15 days and then you also need even more power to do the science experiment?

I eventually figured out that the seismometer is meant to be left in place on a landed probe (or, I guess, a long-term base). It's basically wasted on a lander that only stays on the surface long enough to plant a flag and collect a few samples. Unfortunately, by the time I had half a dozen landed probes out there gathering seismic data, I started to develop frame rate issues due (I think) to the computational load of so many ships being actively tracked all at once.

I didn't keep playing long enough to be sure, but I suspect Kerbalism would have trouble generating enough science to unlock the higher nodes of the Community Tech Tree. For those, science labs (with the stock mechanism) are really useful.

I play with Probes Before Crew and Sigma Dimensions on 4x. My first big science spike is when I manage to land a tiny probe lander using the Ant engine on the Mun, sometimes before getting the seismometer. That usually gets me enough to unlock the seismometer and do it again, which gets even more. I usually land these on the Mun and Minmus around the same time that I do my first manned orbit, and then I start doing manned Mun flybys. Mun landing returns are very difficult on 4x scale, and manned is even harder, but it works. I play on around 150% science and funds due to the 4x scale, though.

[mikegarrison]

4 minutes ago, lordcirth said:

I play with Probes Before Crew and Sigma Dimensions on 4x. My first big science spike is when I manage to land a tiny probe lander using the Ant engine on the Mun, sometimes before getting the seismometer. That usually gets me enough to unlock the seismometer and do it again, which gets even more. I usually land these on the Mun and Minmus around the same time that I do my first manned orbit, and then I start doing manned Mun flybys. Mun landing returns are very difficult on 4x scale, and manned is even harder, but it works. I play on around 150% science and funds due to the 4x scale, though.

I have played around with RSS and yes, scale really changes the balance.

I think it would be fun to play a KSP 2 game which had a RSS scale and all the parts/tech/science/cost/etc. balanced for that. But as it is, it's just too fiddly to run all the mods required to do RSS, especially since they all break every time Squad updates the base game.

[lordcirth]

1 minute ago, mikegarrison said:

I have played around with RSS and yes, scale really changes the balance.

I think it would be fun to play a KSP 2 game which had a RSS scale and all the parts/tech/science/cost/etc. balanced for that. But as it is, it's just too fiddly to run all the mods required to do RSS, especially since they all break every time Squad updates the base game.

That's why I like Sigma Dimensions - the planets and parts are the same, so it doesn't break nearly as much stuff.

[subyng]

1 hour ago, baldamundo said:

Another option would be to disable the stock science experiments and then tweak the settings of a mod like Kerbal Construction Time or Monthly Budgets which provide ways of converting funding into science points.

Just to clarify , I meant the science system in stock, I like how science isn't instantaneous in Kerbalism.

But yep, I am using monthly budgets and construction time as well! 

[Sir Mortimer]

12 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

If we ever have a science lab on the moon, I bet that the things being studied there will mainly be people and stuff found on the moon.

I'm very much looking forward to what they'll find out about the people they found on the moon

[Cheesecake]

22 hours ago, Sir Mortimer said:

Sorry, it's a bit hard to keep up with github, discord and the forum at the same time. Generally speaking, issues and bug reports that are not on github are easily overlooked, forgotten and/or lost.
There is some "documentation" about how science is configured in the wiki (it recently moved, here https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/wiki/TechGuide-~-Supporting-Science-Mods), that text is based on an earlier post here in the forum. I don't know if you've seen that.

OK, there is already an issue on github. It`s  related to using DMModuleScienceAnimateGeneric instead of the stockmodule. But I don`t know how to fix this.

[FreeThinker]

17 hours ago, subyng said:

But yep, I am using monthly budgets and construction time as well! 

I guess this will promote you to do more multiple small  launches and assemble in orbit  rather than launch big all in one heavy rockets

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by FreeThinker

[mdapol]

I like the new science system in general, but I was wondering if there is any way to configure Kerbalism to display the Stock Science Messages instead of those blandly generic messages when an experiment completes?  Or if not, could that be done?

 

[Sir Mortimer]

3 hours ago, mdapol said:

I like the new science system in general, but I was wondering if there is any way to configure Kerbalism to display the Stock Science Messages instead of those blandly generic messages when an experiment completes?  Or if not, could that be done?

No, getting the stock messages with Kerbalisms science isn't possible.

[mikegarrison]

12 minutes ago, Sir Mortimer said:

No, getting the stock messages with Kerbalisms science isn't possible.

Seems like it should be possible. Kerbalism has a subroutine that prints out messages. It knows what the science is and where it came from. Just connect that to a database of messages. I'm not saying it would literally tap into the current stock database of messages, but someone could create a Kerbalism database of messages that repeats (or tweaks) the stock messages.

I'm not volunteering to do it, though.

[Sir Mortimer]

5 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

Seems like it should be possible. Kerbalism has a subroutine that prints out messages. It knows what the science is and where it came from. Just connect that to a database of messages. I'm not saying it would literally tap into the current stock database of messages, but someone could create a Kerbalism database of messages that repeats (or tweaks) the stock messages.

I'm not volunteering to do it, though.

problem is, the database of messages looks like this:

#autoLOC_501327 = The surface is very brown and lumpy. You poke at it with your glove and notice how hard it is.
#autoLOC_501328 = Everywhere you look it appears the planet is sharp. You don't think you want to sit down or fall on anything.
#autoLOC_501329 = You lay down and give the planet a hug, just so it knows it's not alone out here.
#autoLOC_501330 = You Observe the Goo.
#autoLOC_501331 = The Goo doesn't seem to be doing much right now.

Unless you have a way to map "goo observation done in low space above mun" to "autoLOC_501331" *without hard coding it* this will be a lot of manual work, and thusly won't be done.

[mikegarrison]

3 hours ago, Sir Mortimer said:

this will be a lot of manual work

Well, yeah. But not impossible. That's all I was saying. It's possible, but I'm not volunteering to do the work.

[SilverState]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:27 PM, Cheesecake said:

That`s my config:

CoatlAerospace.cfg

The only experiments who don`t work are: ca_rpws, ca_mag, ca_orbitalScope.
The others work but have no animation anymore like the Gammaray-Boom. It works but can`t extend.
I looked into the DMagic-config but it confused me.

Regarding animations, those have to be patched individually per part. You can probably figure out a filter to see if the experiment has an animation, copy it to the Kerbalism Experiment, then delete the module, but i bet they're inconsistent (as usual) and stuff will break.

The config you made is solid, but needs tweaks for animations and probably a slight rebalance.

Regarding those 3 experiments, they're patched properly, and i did check ingame. The only one unpatched from your config is "CAE-SC-VIS Vorona Imaging System". The orbital scope there is stock experiment, which should be patched, but isn't. I'll see why.

Question: Assuming i modify the cfg to fix random stuff (such as animations, balance, whatever else slipped through the cracks), would you mind if i added it to Kerbalism's repo? (and ultimately download, so everyone can have it)

[Cheesecake]

2 minutes ago, SilverState said:

Question: Assuming i modify the cfg to fix random stuff (such as animations, balance, whatever else slipped through the cracks), would you mind if i added it to Kerbalism's repo? (and ultimately download, so everyone can have it)

That`s ok.

I think the problem is not the animation itself. It´s using DMModuleScienceAnimateGeneric instead of the stock one ModuleScienceExperiment.

[SilverState]

Just now, Cheesecake said:

That`s ok.

I think the problem is not the animation itself. It´s using DMModuleScienceAnimateGeneric instead of the stock one ModuleScienceExperiment.

That's why I said it needs to be patched per part. Bunch of manual labour, but not the end of the world.

[Cheesecake]

2 hours ago, SilverState said:

That's why I said it needs to be patched per part. Bunch of manual labour, but not the end of the world.

That would be awesome becaus I don`t know how to do this.

[mdapol]

 

8 hours ago, Sir Mortimer said:

problem is, the database of messages looks like this:

#autoLOC_501327 = The surface is very brown and lumpy. You poke at it with your glove and notice how hard it is.
#autoLOC_501328 = Everywhere you look it appears the planet is sharp. You don't think you want to sit down or fall on anything.
#autoLOC_501329 = You lay down and give the planet a hug, just so it knows it's not alone out here.
#autoLOC_501330 = You Observe the Goo.
#autoLOC_501331 = The Goo doesn't seem to be doing much right now.

Unless you have a way to map "goo observation done in low space above mun" to "autoLOC_501331" *without hard coding it* this will be a lot of manual work, and thusly won't be done.

I guess I’m not quite understanding you. There already is a way to map the science messages. IIRC, the stock Science Config file has a list of all messages organized by experiment an location. All that would be needed is to read in the file and convert it to whatever format Kerbalism uses. 

Can you explain what I’m missing?

And could you point me to where in the code the Kerbalism science messages are generated and displayed?

Thanks. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by mdapol

[SilverState]

3 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

That would be awesome becaus I don`t know how to do this.

I'll do it, that's why I asked for your permission to use your config as a starting point and fix whatever needs fixing.

[Gotmachine]

@mdapol It's probably doable, maybe we can put this in the tooltip that appear when you hover on the file/sample in the file manager.

We will look into it when we can, there are many more urgent issues to deal with at the moment.

Putting this in https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/issues/488
 

[TicTac]

On 8/14/2019 at 8:30 AM, Sir Mortimer said:

problem is, the database of messages looks like this:

#autoLOC_501327 = The surface is very brown and lumpy. You poke at it with your glove and notice how hard it is.
#autoLOC_501328 = Everywhere you look it appears the planet is sharp. You don't think you want to sit down or fall on anything.
#autoLOC_501329 = You lay down and give the planet a hug, just so it knows it's not alone out here.
#autoLOC_501330 = You Observe the Goo.
#autoLOC_501331 = The Goo doesn't seem to be doing much right now.

Unless you have a way to map "goo observation done in low space above mun" to "autoLOC_501331" *without hard coding it* this will be a lot of manual work, and thusly won't be done.

I'm not sure how CrowdSourcedScience as a whole works, but it seems to store it's messages in a much more organized fashion.  It might be possible to look up a value from their .CFGs - they're organized by planet, then biome, then experiment type with fallback defaults in a few different places.  For example, a Crew Report from Duna at high altitude would be in planets/duna/default/crewReport.cfg > "DunaInSpaceHigh = The crew is concerned that the planet is "too red".  Mission Control does not believe this is a good reason to go home."  A report from the ground would be in planets/duna/northernshelf/crewReport.cfg > multiple options labeled "DunaSrfLandedNorthernShelf"

I don't think this is a huge priority given how science is processed in the background now, but food for thought if anyone wants to try and incorporate situation-specific messages.

[lajoswinkler]

I'd like to point out that Kerbalism disables Near future electrical's fission reactor menus and capabilities. No fine control is possible anymore, just starting and stopping the reactors. The menu button and temperature readouts also disappear.

Upon removal of Kerbalism, NFE returns back to normal.

[Drew Kerman]

37 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

I'd like to point out that Kerbalism disables Near future electrical's fission reactor menus and capabilities. No fine control is possible anymore, just starting and stopping the reactors. The menu button and temperature readouts also disappear.

This is interesting because I don't know what Kerbalism was trying to achieve here by getting in the way of NF