Collecting Science (What Biomes are left?)

[MPDerksen]

New Player here.  I’ve successfully orbited, and returned from Mun a few times with probes (no live Kerbals or landings there just yet.  That’s next). So I’m good on orbits, as well as setting up my target burns.  Obviously still need practice on picking landing sites.  

I have collected various science with the Goo and Too-Hot, high, low, water, grasslands.  I even built a rover and drove around collecting all the “biomes” at the KSC.  Thanks Scott Manley for that idea.  But I forgot all about the barometric instrument.  I have no idea what biomes are still not mined.  How do I find that out?  I want to make efficient use of my Mun trips, which I’m about to try my first landing there.

Second, when I go to the Mun, should I take a Scientist?  Or just use a pilot and beam the science back?  

Last, if I create a Mun lander with a Science Experiment “box” below the engine, will my Kerbal be able to get back into the cockpit for return?  Do I add ladders?  (I haven’t unlocked those yet).  I  have 183 science, but want to use that for my fuel lines so I can asparagus my first stage.

And last, again:  I seem to have rotate issues at launch.  This makes it a bit harder to lean over due East and I end up in inclined orbits.  No big deal for Mun, but I think that’s going to create some issues when I shoot for Minmus (which is next).

If this is best broken into multiple parts, I’m happy to repost.  I’m truly new to the game, but having some success.  

[magnemoe]

32 minutes ago, MPDerksen said:

New Player here.  I’ve successfully orbited, and returned from Mun a few times with probes (no live Kerbals or landings there just yet.  That’s next). So I’m good on orbits, as well as setting up my target burns.  Obviously still need practice on picking landing sites.  

I have collected various science with the Goo and Too-Hot, high, low, water, grasslands.  I even built a rover and drove around collecting all the “biomes” at the KSC.  Thanks Scott Manley for that idea.  But I forgot all about the barometric instrument.  I have no idea what biomes are still not mined.  How do I find that out?  I want to make efficient use of my Mun trips, which I’m about to try my first landing there.

Second, when I go to the Mun, should I take a Scientist?  Or just use a pilot and beam the science back?  

Last, if I create a Mun lander with a Science Experiment “box” below the engine, will my Kerbal be able to get back into the cockpit for return?  Do I add ladders?  (I haven’t unlocked those yet).  I  have 183 science, but want to use that for my fuel lines so I can asparagus my first stage.

And last, again:  I seem to have rotate issues at launch.  This makes it a bit harder to lean over due East and I end up in inclined orbits.  No big deal for Mun, but I think that’s going to create some issues when I shoot for Minmus (which is next).

If this is best broken into multiple parts, I’m happy to repost.  I’m truly new to the game, but having some success.  

Benefit of scientist is that they can reset material labs and goo containers, pilots can not, however they can extract data so you can leave them on ground. 
If you have decent probe cores you they mostly replace pilots as long you have connection to kerbin as in not back of mun.

You might want to go to minmus first, a bit harder to get an intercept but much easier to land on, landings also require less fuel so you can do multiple landings. 
because of multiple landings you want an scientist. make sure to unlock EVA and surface samples first. 

[MPDerksen]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

Benefit of scientist is that they can reset material labs and goo containers, pilots can not, however they can extract data so you can leave them on ground. 
If you have decent probe cores you they mostly replace pilots as long you have connection to kerbin as in not back of mun.

You might want to go to minmus first, a bit harder to get an intercept but much easier to land on, landings also require less fuel so you can do multiple landings. 
because of multiple landings you want an scientist. make sure to unlock EVA and surface samples first. 

Thanks for that.  Is there a way to check my history and see what science I’ve already gotten so I can fill in the gaps?  For example, I know I’ve gotten grassland, and upper atmosphere temps over the grasslands, or have I?  I don’t want to miss anything, but also don’t want to waste time redoing things.

[Foxster]

On the tech tree screen there is a tab at the top left called Archives. You can see the science you have done so far there. 

There is a rather excellent little mod called ForScience! that will run any available experiments for you, so you don't have to keep trying to figure out if there is science to be gained where you are. It doesn't generate any more science than you could get manually, it just makes sure you don't miss out. 

You get a lot more science from returning it to Kerbin than radioing it back. If you can take along a scientist then you can get multiple uses from some of your experiments and return those. 

Your Kerbal can indeed get back into your craft. If you have no ladders then you can jetpack back to the hatch. Once back in the capsule, any science collected will be automatically deposited in the capsule. 

You don't actually ever need to land to get a lot of science. Low flybys of the Mun, Minmus, Eve, Duna and their moons will generate loads of science without the difficulty of making a lander. Of course it's a lot of fun to land and explore, but you can do that when a bit more of the tech tree is unlocked from flybys first. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Foxster

[Gargamel]

59 minutes ago, Foxster said:

On the tech tree screen there is a tab at the top left called Archives. You can see the science you have done so far there. 

 

1 hour ago, Foxster said:

There is a rather excellent little mod called ForScience! that will run any available experiments for you, so you don't have to keep trying to figure out if there is science to be gained where you are. It doesn't generate any more science than you could get manually, it just makes sure you don't miss out. 

I love doing this early on in the game.  Get your first Mun/Minmus landing, and then reel in the tourism contracts to land there.  Each time you go up with tourists, load your craft with expirements, take a scientist with you, and plan your landing site using the science archives tab.   Then I use the FS mod to automate all the clicking. 

3 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

Last, if I create a Mun lander with a Science Experiment “box” below the engine, will my Kerbal be able to get back into the cockpit for return?  Do I add ladders?  (I haven’t unlocked those yet).  I  have 183 science, but want to use that for my fuel lines so I can asparagus my first stage.

Depends on the design of your craft.   Look through the craft forum we have for some ideas.  Or just build your own and see if it works.    Ladders are option.  I always add them just in case (Like the time my kerbals bugged out and would not jump or RCS off the munar surface, but could still climb a ladder), but on places like minmus, you can actually achieve orbit just jet packing around, so ladders are not necessary there. 

 

[Goody1981]

Good answers here, a couple of other tips

- It's (semi)obvious but if your hatch is off the ground, you can only jetpack back to it on low gravity moons/planets. So for some places you will need ladders. I once sent a mission to Tylo, beautifully designed lander with multi-stage ascent, took me ages to build, couldn't wait to try the take off. Landed, hopped out, got science, planted flag, took in the view, pressed 'R' for jetpack, held shift for 'up'... and watched in horror as the jetpack just emptied itself over the ground without my Kerbal moving.

- If you do have a scientist (or any Kerbal) on the next trip, a great way to get more science is to do low EVA reports. Each moon/planet has a "high" biome and a "low" biome. E.g. you can get 2 thermometer readings from the Mun - one "high above", and one "in space near". But for EVAs it's a little different. You still get only 1 "high above", but when you are close, each biome on the ground you are directly over counts as a different EVA report. As an example for Kerbin, if you are in a 70km orbit, you can just:

1 - EVA, and do a report (let's say you're over the water)

2 - Right click capsule and store the report/data/experiment (can't remember exactly which word it uses), or you can enter the capsule to store it, then EVA again

3 - Wait until you are above a different biome (grasslands, shores, lowlands, midlands, highlands, mountains, deserts, badlands ...all available on an equatorial orbit, if you are inclined you can get poles too).

4 - Repeat 1 and 2

It does take a bit of trial and error cos you won't know you're above a new biome, you just have to eyeball what's below you. Or get KER, and it tells you.

 

5 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

 I seem to have rotate issues at launch

- If you can show us a pic of your craft we can have a go at troubleshooting? 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Goody1981

[MPDerksen]

WOW!!!  I never saw the “archives” tab.  That’s genius!!!  Unlike me, apparently.

Tonight I did 3 contracts in a single launch, but it took a few try’s to time it all.  Looking at my archives, I can tell there is a LOT of science to do just on Kerbin before I do my first Mun landing.  I’ve done 3 trips there so far, but I’m pretty much randomly clicking the maneuver arrows for an intersect.  I need to do more homework on how to incline my orbits etc.

Focusing just on Kerbin science then, make an orbital craft with:  2 Goo, 2 2HOT, 2 barometric, and a science Jr.?  Use a scientist, get into a hight orbit, EVA and collect as many biomes as possible.  Reset everything and store after each one.  Then, lower my orbit (how low?) and repeat.  If I can incline my orbit to fly over the poles, that’s probably a second flight.  Do I have all that right?  Finally, repeat this over Mun and Minmus?  

Looking at “Situations”, I have I have 6 for Kerbin:  Surface Landed, Surface Spashed, Flying Low, Flying High, In Space Low, & In Space High.  

Looking at Biomes, and specifically “Grasslands”, should I be able to collect Goo, temp etc. from each of landed, flying low, flying high, and both Space levels?  Seems that would add up a LOT.  Then we add Surface samples at each location.  It seems like I moved on to the Mun long before I really needed to (other than it was a fun challenge).

Can I put a MK1 with a scientist right above a probe “pilot” so I can have SAS?

As far as rotation, I realized I can use “Q” and “E”....  Sorry for the extra noob-ness.  

I’ll spend the next few days of game time to explore Kerbin and the Mun biomes, then come back for some landing advice.  I will need to learn to post pics at some point, but I do appreciate the helpful advice I’ve gotten so far.

[Goody1981]

Love how excited you are about this  ...has inspired me to leave work early and load up my save!

Just with respect to the EVA science that I mentioned, the biomes don’t make a difference if you are high above the planet, only low orbit. So for Kerbin there is ONE EVA science available for high orbit, and like 10 or whatever for low orbit.

Also also, if you are playing Science or Career mode, where the actual science is used to unlock parts, I wouldn’t go super-crazy just at Kerbin-Mun-Minmus. It’s very easy to get to the end of the tech tree just from these 3 places, and I know in career games where I have done this, I haven’t felt as motivated to go interplanetary since I’ve already unlocked everything. 

But having said that, if this is your first time, play however you want, and you can always start another one

[Foxster]

Check out the "Science" entry in the Wiki to get the low and high heights for each body. 

There are indeed a lot of places to collect science around Kerbin but there's not a lot to be had at each location. Leaving Kerbin's SOI really ramps up the science collection rate. 

I used to diligently collect all the science around the KSC then hop around a bunch of biomes in little aircraft, only then venturing into space. You can however get to orbit and do flybys of both moons with really basic tech and that gets you a lot more science. Depends whether you want to explore Kerbin or not, once you have done it you might want to skip it next time. 

A scientist on a probe-controlled craft is a good combo. Yes, you can do all the experiments at all the locations and biomes. 

[Jollyranger]

18 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

New Player here.  I’ve successfully orbited, and returned from Mun a few times with probes (no live Kerbals or landings there just yet.  That’s next). So I’m good on orbits, as well as setting up my target burns.  Obviously still need practice on picking landing sites.  

I have collected various science with the Goo and Too-Hot, high, low, water, grasslands.  I even built a rover and drove around collecting all the “biomes” at the KSC.  Thanks Scott Manley for that idea.  But I forgot all about the barometric instrument.  I have no idea what biomes are still not mined.  How do I find that out?  I want to make efficient use of my Mun trips, which I’m about to try my first landing there.

Second, when I go to the Mun, should I take a Scientist?  Or just use a pilot and beam the science back?  

Last, if I create a Mun lander with a Science Experiment “box” below the engine, will my Kerbal be able to get back into the cockpit for return?  Do I add ladders?  (I haven’t unlocked those yet).  I  have 183 science, but want to use that for my fuel lines so I can asparagus my first stage.

And last, again:  I seem to have rotate issues at launch.  This makes it a bit harder to lean over due East and I end up in inclined orbits.  No big deal for Mun, but I think that’s going to create some issues when I shoot for Minmus (which is next).

If this is best broken into multiple parts, I’m happy to repost.  I’m truly new to the game, but having some success.  

I would just send a mun lander with a goo, thermometer, and barometer. I did that with a pilot, and if you take an Eva report and get a surface sample it generates over 200 science (maybe 300!). the surface sample alone gave me 120 science.

I would not beam the science back because it reduces the value and just makes coming back seem less exciting. I would bring an antenna just in case you get stuck. You also don't need ladders because the jetpack works on the mun.

[MPDerksen]

9 hours ago, Goody1981 said:

Love how excited you are about this  ...has inspired me to leave work early and load up my save!

Just with respect to the EVA science that I mentioned, the biomes don’t make a difference if you are high above the planet, only low orbit. So for Kerbin there is ONE EVA science available for high orbit, and like 10 or whatever for low orbit.

Also also, if you are playing Science or Career mode, where the actual science is used to unlock parts, I wouldn’t go super-crazy just at Kerbin-Mun-Minmus. It’s very easy to get to the end of the tech tree just from these 3 places, and I know in career games where I have done this, I haven’t felt as motivated to go interplanetary since I’ve already unlocked everything. 

But having said that, if this is your first time, play however you want, and you can always start another one

Right, so let’s not wait to be a “space program” then.  Looking up the various biomes in the Wiki, and realized there are a few I didn’t hit with my rover around KSC last time.  Plus, I now have the barometric one.  I’ll do that, then get an enginer on the surface of Mun (and Minmus).

I’ll start a fresh thread about better understanding intersecting orbits, but perhaps a last question here:  When building a rocket, how do I know what dV it has before I test it?  I have been fairly much guessing if 2 vs 4 SRB are needed etc.

Indeed I’m excited.  My nephew gave me this for my 50th birthday, knowing a was a long time SimCity fan.  It’s brilliant.

[Snark]

12 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

Use a scientist, get into a hight orbit, EVA and collect as many biomes as possible.  Reset everything and store after each one.  Then, lower my orbit (how low?) and repeat.

Well, not quite.  "Is an experiment biome-specific or not" depends both on the experiment and on the situation.

For example, for "low space":  the only experiments that are biome-specific there (i.e. based on what biome you're above) are EVA reports, and the gravioli detector (the latter's way up at the top end of the tech tree).  If you use a goo, or a Science Jr., or thermometer, barometer, etc., you'll just get exactly one reading (e.g. "Temperature report from space near Kerbin"), and going to the different biomes won't help you.

And for high orbit (i.e. above 250km, on Kerbin)... EVA isn't biome-specific either; the only thing there that's biome-specific is gravioli.

So, as soon as you have the ability to orbit and the ability to EVA while not on the surface... just take a kerbal EVA over all the various biomes (can be anyone, doesn't have to be a scientist) and you've covered all the bases.

12 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

Looking at Biomes, and specifically “Grasslands”, should I be able to collect Goo, temp etc. from each of landed, flying low, flying high, and both Space levels?

Again:  depends on the instrument.

• Landed:  every single experiment is biome-specific.
• Flying:  Thermometer, crew report, EVA report, and atmosphere analysis are biome-specific.  Everything else is not.
• Upper atmosphere:  Atmosphere analysis is the only biome-specific one.
• In space, low:  EVA reports and gravioli detector are biome-specific.
• In space, high:  Gravioli detector is biome-specific.

Also, some instruments are only usable in certain situations-- e.g. the accelerometer is only usable when landed, the gravioli detector can't be used in atmosphere, the atmosphere analyzer has to be in atmosphere, etc.

12 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

Can I put a MK1 with a scientist right above a probe “pilot” so I can have SAS?

Absolutely!    That's a pretty common thing to do.  My own career usually starts with a few missions with Jeb or Val flying things, then as soon as I get the OKTO probe core (which has SAS), I send Bob to the Mun with a probe core for company.

1 hour ago, MPDerksen said:

When building a rocket, how do I know what dV it has before I test it?  I have been fairly much guessing if 2 vs 4 SRB are needed etc.

Ah, here you've tapped into a long-standing debate in KSP.   There's no stock dV meter.  A lot of folks (not all, but many) wish there were one, but there isn't.

You've got a few options, here:

• Seat of the pants.  Just wing it.  If you actually have a good understanding of the physics involved here, you can do surprisingly well after a bit of practice.
• Install a mod that does the calculations for you and displays them.  Kerbal Engineer Redux (frequently referred to here as KER) is a very popular mod that lots of people use, precisely for this purpose.
• Pull out the ol' calculator or spreadsheet and punch the numbers in.    That's what I like to do, because I find it fun, because I am, 1. a weirdo, and 2. a physics major.  You quickly become friends with the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.  Take the mass of the rocket with fuel, divide by the mass without the fuel in that stage, take the natural logarithm (ln key), multiply by 9.81, multiply by engine's Isp, there you go.  Repeat for each stage.

It's worth noting that no tool will precisely tell you the dV you get during atmospheric ascent, because you lose an unpredictable amount of dV to gravity loss and drag (depending on the trajectory followed, and on the ship design), not to mention that engines get worse Isp in atmosphere, and the pressure's changing as you climb.

However, once the ship climbs above 10 km or so, the air's close enough to a vacuum that you're getting pretty much your vacuum Isp, so that's not so much of an issue.  What I normally do is just make sure that I have enough boosters on the launchpad to give me the desired TWR for liftoff, don't even bother calculating for the first stage (since that's hard for the initial climb).  I just figure out the Isp for the second-and-later stages, since those happen when the ship's high enough to not have to worry about atmosphere much.

[MPDerksen]

Snark,

all that is SUPER helpful.  The bottom line, for me, is that there would be decreasing returns for me at this point, to go hunting all the various biomes.  Instead, I’ll practice trying to land somewhere new after each mission to get what I can from the ground after the bigger missions (Alt-F5 is my friend before re-entry).

I’m also not going to get really stressed about predicting the perfect launch physics.  I’ve come back from the Mun 3 times, and each was almost NO fuel left, so I’m cutting it really close.  I’ll try and find some lander examples to model and go get me some surface samples.   Above there was mention of a forum of such examples????

Cheers,

Michael

[Foxster]

2 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

 When building a rocket, how do I know what dV it has before I test it?  

Ah, now there's a problem. You can't know. Ot at least not in stock without doing a tedious calculation that you need to repeat every time you make a change to your craft. 

What most folks do is install a mod that displays this for you, along with other useful stuff like TWR. The most popular being MechJeb (because it does other stuff for you too) and Kerbal Engineer Redux. 

[Snark]

1 hour ago, MPDerksen said:

The bottom line, for me, is that there would be decreasing returns for me at this point, to go hunting all the various biomes.

Here's the thing to bear in mind:

• Science points from Mun or Minmus are a quantum leap more valuable than the same experiments from Kerbin.
• And getting science points from other planets will give you another quantum leap beyond that.

So, my advice to you is that when you start a new career and you're eager to climb the tech tree, you may want to focus get to the Mun or Minmus as soon as you have the tech to do so.  Explore Kerbin, yes, but only until you've accumulated enough tech to get to the Mun.

As a general rule of thumb:  I usually find that the "tipping point" for "can I go to the Mun" is the initial electricity node that lets me get solar panels.  That's what enables a ship that can go on an extended multi-day mission without running out of power.  Get that node, and you should be good to go.  You may need to upgrade the launchpad (for lofting a heavier rocket).  It's doable without upgrading the VAB-- the 30-part limit is tight, though.

Note, it's considerably easier to do a flyby or even an orbit than it is to actually land and return-- for one thing, going from Mun orbit to surface and back is around 1200 m/s at least, even if you're being optimally efficient.  So it may be worth considering doing an initial flyby to scrape off science, which you can use to get yourself a bit higher up the tree and ready to do a landing.  If you have a probe core, you may also want to consider sending an uncrewed mission first, because, 1. it can be one-way, thus saving dV, and 2. not lugging along a heavy crew pod makes the ship a whole lot lighter and smaller.

Even a simple Mun flyby will net you a few hundred science points, if you're smart about it.    And that'll be enough to bootstrap yourself to a landing, and then Bob's your uncle.  Um, scientist, I mean scientist.

Note that there are a variety of play styles in KSP and different players like different things.  Some folks really like to explore all the nooks and crannies of Kerbin, and there's nothing wrong with that.    But if your goal is "get me science so I can go explore spaaaaaaace", you're probably better served heading to Mun/Minmus at the earliest opportunity rather than trying to suck Kerbin dry.

 

FWIW, my own career progression usually goes something like this:

1. A few launches working my way up to being able to get to low Kerbin orbit
2. A single orbital mission where I gather lots of EVA reports and such
3. A single crewed Mun flyby/orbit mission, netting a few hundred science points
4. A Mun landing-and-return with a crewed lander, usually Bob in a Mk1 pod with an OKTO for company.
5. Here's where the possibilities really explode and there are many possible directions for what to do next.

There are other ways one can approach it, of course-- for example doing an uncrewed landing instead of a crewed flyby in step 3-- and I do all kinds of things in step 5, different from one career playthrough to the next, fo the sake of variety.  But steps 1 through 4 are usually fairly consistent, for me.

Incidentally:  after you upgrade the R&D facility the first time, that unlocks the ability of your kerbals to take surface samples.  Something to be aware of-- surface samples from the Mun or beyond are worth oodles of juicy science. 

[Snark]

39 minutes ago, MPDerksen said:

I’m also not going to get really stressed about predicting the perfect launch physics.  I’ve come back from the Mun 3 times, and each was almost NO fuel left, so I’m cutting it really close.

The other thing to work on is your piloting, particularly for the following:

1. Ascent from launchpad to LKO.  (Useful search term:  gravity turn)
2. Efficient navigation when doing transfers.  (Useful search terms:  Hohmann, Oberth)
3. Efficient vacuum landings (e.g. on the Mun) and takeoff.  (Useful search term:  suicide burn).

The difference between "just make it work" and "fly it well" can mean a lot of dV wasted or saved.  So if you're finding yourself cutting the margins really thin on your dV... well, part of that may be your ship design, yes, but it's also highly likely (if you're new to KSP) that you may not be flying it in the most efficient way.  It's not always obvious to the newcomer that "oh, I could do this a lot better."   

So, depending on how you're currently flying, you may be able to squeeze out hundreds of additional m/s of dV.  This is the kind of thing where the Gameplay Questions forum comes in really handy.

 

[SpacedCowboy]

MPDerksen,

                   You are getting the best advice that can be had! IMO

[MPDerksen]

6 hours ago, Snark said:

The other thing to work on is your piloting, particularly for the following:

1. Ascent from launchpad to LKO.  (Useful search term:  gravity turn)
2. Efficient navigation when doing transfers.  (Useful search terms:  Hohmann, Oberth)
3. Efficient vacuum landings (e.g. on the Mun) and takeoff.  (Useful search term:  suicide burn).

The difference between "just make it work" and "fly it well" can mean a lot of dV wasted or saved.  So if you're finding yourself cutting the margins really thin on your dV... well, part of that may be your ship design, yes, but it's also highly likely (if you're new to KSP) that you may not be flying it in the most efficient way.  It's not always obvious to the newcomer that "oh, I could do this a lot better."   

So, depending on how you're currently flying, you may be able to squeeze out hundreds of additional m/s of dV.  This is the kind of thing where the Gameplay Questions forum comes in really handy.

 

It seems that the only reason for an Engineer is if i want to reset an experiment.  And the only reason to reset it would be if I wanted to collect from same instrument, but from a second location.  Pilots EVA as well as Engineers, yes?  And the EVA report can be redone once I go back in the capsule, then EVA a second, (third, fourth...) time.  

That said, if I want 2 Goo experiments, I can simply carry 2 Goo instruments.  Same cannot be said, reasonably, for the Science Jr. given its’ size.  I got started by watching a bunch of Scott Manley’s YouTube videos, and he always did the Goo and 2HOT in pairs, which is why I was doing the same.

I did a bit of reading on Hohmann transfers and while I am getting the idea, I’m still a bit confused on the various ways to set up an intersect.  I think I need to get to orbit, try my best to set up my line, then post the screenshot.  Clearly this is a friendly, and helpful forum, so thanks in advance.

Michael

[Superfluous J]

21 minutes ago, MPDerksen said:

It seems that the only reason for an Engineer is if i want to reset an experiment.  And the only reason to reset it would be if I wanted to collect from same instrument, but from a second location.  Pilots EVA as well as Engineers, yes?  And the EVA report can be redone once I go back in the capsule, then EVA a second, (third, fourth...) time.  

You mean "Scientist" here. Scientists reset experiments, and specifically only the Science Jr and Mystery Goo experiments. The rest don't need reset, you can use them over and over. Any Kerbal on EVA can take an experiment out of it's container, though, and store them in a pod. Also, there's the science container that can automatcally pull all experiments into itself without the need to go EVA.

You don't ever need to do multiple EVA's in any given situation/biome combination. However yes, while orbiting you can hop out over and over and get additional EVA reports in new biomes.

Quote

That said, if I want 2 Goo experiments, I can simply carry 2 Goo instruments.  Same cannot be said, reasonably, for the Science Jr. given its’ size.  I got started by watching a bunch of Scott Manley’s YouTube videos, and he always did the Goo and 2HOT in pairs, which is why I was doing the same.

Goos also add up, but yes if the choice is between bringing a scientist and bringing an extra goo container, then yes the extra goo is more cost and weight effective.

Quote

I did a bit of reading on Hohmann transfers and while I am getting the idea, I’m still a bit confused on the various ways to set up an intersect.  I think I need to get to orbit, try my best to set up my line, then post the screenshot.  Clearly this is a friendly, and helpful forum, so thanks in advance.

The best way to figure it out is to get into a nice cicular orbit, create a maneuver node to burn up to touch Mun's orbit, and then drag that maneuver node around until you get an encounter. Keep dragging it around until that encounter has a low Pe around Mun, and you've just planned a Hohmann Transfer. Note this requires a single level-up of both the tracking station and mission control if you're in career mode. They're well worth the cost though. Frequently the first two buildings I upgrade.

Sorry about that I had a brainurism and thought you were talking about going to Mun, but Hohmann transfers are to go from one planet to another, or between moons of a planet. That's a more difficult thing and requires more than a one-off paragraph

Edited March 20, 2018 by 5thHorseman

[MPDerksen]

Right, “Scientist”, not “Engineer”.  Words matter here.

What is the Experiment Storage Unit that I see in the build screen?  The description is fairly vague, and it’s a different size then my Science Jr. so I’m not sure how I would implement it into a craft design.

my brain miss-fired exactly the same as yours, and I was, indeed, referring to Mun and Minmus voyages, so I read what you had lined out!!  My buildings are all level 2 at the moment, and I’ve played with the controls a bunch.  I know the effects of Prograde, etc.  but I still I’ve been lucky to end up in Mun Orbit.  I’ve done it 3 for 3, but still don’t think it’s because I’m brilliant, or that the process is easy.  I want to UNDERSTAND what I’m doing, not just click, get lucky and move on.

Michael

[Superfluous J]

The Experiment Storage Unit is what I referred to as the "Science Container." Think of it as a shortcut to taking your Kerbal out and grabbing all the science reports. You right click it and "collect all data" and then bam, all data is in the container. You can do this any number of times and get all the data for your mission in that one container.

The two most common ways of integrating it on a ship are:

1. Put it on top of a Mk1 pod where you'd normally put the parachute, and then put the parachute on top of it.
2. Put it (and all of your science stuff except the Jr.) in the Service Bay that you get around the same time.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, MPDerksen said:

What is the Experiment Storage Unit that I see in the build screen?  The description is fairly vague, and it’s a different size then my Science Jr. so I’m not sure how I would implement it into a craft design.

 

14 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

The Experiment Storage Unit is what I referred to as the "Science Container." Think of it as a shortcut to taking your Kerbal out and grabbing all the science reports. You right click it and "collect all data" and then bam, all data is in the container. You can do this any number of times and get all the data for your mission in that one container.

Or the "Box o' Science", as I affectionately refer to it. 

I love this little thing.  It saves a bunch of clickety-clicking, especially if you tie its "collect all" action to an action group so it's one keypress to suck all the science out of everything.  Saves a lot of clambering around.  (Useful note, the 1.25m and 2.5m probe cores also have this same ability.)

Aside from being a convenient EVA-saver, it's also a really handy item to have for uncrewed return probes, because it means you can take multiple measurements with a single instrument.  Imagine if you were sending an uncrewed lander to touch down on Minmus, gather science, then hop to another biome and so forth, until finally it returns to Kerbin with a juicy load of data.  Without the Box O' Science, you'd need to have N instances of each instrument if you wanted to bring back N readings.  With this little gizmo, you only need one of each instrument, because after taking the readings you can just suck 'em into the box.  (And making the return to Kerbin can be easier, because you only need to return the box itself along with minimal hardware such as a parachute and the little 0.625m heat shield.  Parachute + box + shield + decoupler + Oscar + Spark is a tidy little package with a hell of a lot of dV.)

@MPDerksen Do read up on gravity turns and suicide burns, because "inefficient trajectory to orbit" and "inefficient vacuum landing technique" are probably the two biggest classic ways that new players spend a lot more dV than they have to, without realizing it. 

 

[MPDerksen]

So I posted just 36 hours ago, and just look how much I’ve already learned!!!  I thought I was enthusiastic before, but now I have a dozen flight plans buzzing around my head I want to try.  Not sure how to control the box on re-entry, but maybe it’s time to stop asking, and start trying stuff.  

Don’t worry, I’ll be back with plenty more ways for you to show your brilliance.

Cheers,

Michael

[Kerbalstar]

12 hours ago, MPDerksen said:

So I posted just 36 hours ago, and just look how much I’ve already learned!!!  I thought I was enthusiastic before, but now I have a dozen flight plans buzzing around my head I want to try.  Not sure how to control the box on re-entry, but maybe it’s time to stop asking, and start trying stuff.  

Don’t worry, I’ll be back with plenty more ways for you to show your brilliance.

Cheers,

Michael

Glad we could help. Also, for control either have a probe core on the box, or if you want a minimal re-entry, arm the chutes on the box, use your probe to get it on a re-entry trajectory, decouple the box, and if you want to use your probe as a comm sat then just re-orbit the probe, then switch to the box and follow it down. 

[juanml82]

On 18/3/2018 at 9:42 PM, Goody1981 said:

- If you do have a scientist (or any Kerbal) on the next trip, a great way to get more science is to do low EVA reports. Each moon/planet has a "high" biome and a "low" biome. E.g. you can get 2 thermometer readings from the Mun - one "high above", and one "in space near". But for EVAs it's a little different. You still get only 1 "high above", but when you are close, each biome on the ground you are directly over counts as a different EVA report. As an example for Kerbin, if you are in a 70km orbit, you can just:

1 - EVA, and do a report (let's say you're over the water)

2 - Right click capsule and store the report/data/experiment (can't remember exactly which word it uses), or you can enter the capsule to store it, then EVA again

3 - Wait until you are above a different biome (grasslands, shores, lowlands, midlands, highlands, mountains, deserts, badlands ...all available on an equatorial orbit, if you are inclined you can get poles too).

4 - Repeat 1 and 2

It does take a bit of trial and error cos you won't know you're above a new biome, you just have to eyeball what's below you. Or get KER, and it tells you.

In the cheat section of the debug menu there is an option to show a biome overlay in the map view. So what I do is to get into a highly inclined orbit, toggle the biome view and therefore I can get an idea about when I'm reaching a new biome. I can then warp to that point in orbit (I don't remember if that's a stock feature or a KAC one) and/or use the X Science mod to unwarp for me

On 19/3/2018 at 3:12 PM, MPDerksen said:

Snark,

all that is SUPER helpful.  The bottom line, for me, is that there would be decreasing returns for me at this point, to go hunting all the various biomes.  Instead, I’ll practice trying to land somewhere new after each mission to get what I can from the ground after the bigger missions (Alt-F5 is my friend before re-entry).

I’m also not going to get really stressed about predicting the perfect launch physics.  I’ve come back from the Mun 3 times, and each was almost NO fuel left, so I’m cutting it really close.  I’ll try and find some lander examples to model and go get me some surface samples.   Above there was mention of a forum of such examples????

Cheers,

Michael

You can also rush the gravioli detector, as that's biome specific in both high orbit, low orbit and surface - it will give you a lot of science once you have it.

 

One thing you can practice on Minmus is biome hopping. Land somewhere, collect all the science and then, instead of returning to orbit, make a suborbital hop to a nearby biome. Rinse and repeat. You should probably use Mechjeb's landing predictor or the Trajectories mod to predict your landing spot. Since Minmus has so little gravity, you can do several biomes with little fuel. 

Something more advanced, which also requires a bit more of science is to land a rover and use it to drive around. Ideally, you'll land it near the "border" of three biomes, so your initial trip will be short. You can then use the Bon Voyage rover autopilot mod to travel to farther biomes or, if your rovers doubles as a lander, do a suborbital hop elsewhere. But rover building takes some practice, and delivering rovers is also complicated: vertical rockets are meant to be long and sleek, spaceplanes are best done with rapiers and are meant to be long and thin and rovers are best if they are short and wide instead.

Edited March 21, 2018 by juanml82