Why we admire people even if they had questionable or troubled past such as dr Wernher von Braun who was pedant after all xD

[Pawelk198604]

No body like the pedants but sometime we bend of "special" pedant such as Dr. Wernher von Braun   

 

[Video removed by moderator]

I have deep respect for dr. Von Braun even through pedant run havoc in my country (Poland)  

[Nibb31]

pedant ?

[Shpaget]

39 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

pedant ?

Forum staff think we might get our feelings hurt if we see the name of a certain WWII era political party spelled out, so it is censored.

As for the topic, there are individuals that are just thrown into the situation they have little control over and are forced to play along. There are countless individuals that were working directly or indirectly for Pedant Germany during WWII, but had reservation regarding various policies of the regime. However, their skill is not any less admirable just because they were on the "wrong" side.

Had the Germany won the WWII, entire US team working on nukes would be facing the music for dropping those bombs on civilians. Again, brilliant minds that were put into position they did not necessarily like, but had to work in.

[Gargamel]

48 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Had the Germany won the WWII, entire US team working on nukes would be facing the music for dropping those bombs on civilians.

If Germany had won, the civilians in question would not have had the bomb dropped on them.  Others probably, and then it would have been used in the European theater, so Germany would have probably been the one surrendering.  But that's for anther thread. 

50 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Again, brilliant minds that were put into position they did not necessarily like, but had to work in.

Exactly.  If you didn't play along, you didn't get along.

And I'm guessing this will get locked because of the inevitable political discussion that will ensue. 

[GoSlash27]

I don't judge people by their circumstances, I judge them by their motivations and accomplishments. Believe it or not, there were some "pedants" who were truly good people. See John Rabe.

In Dr. Von Braun's case, yes he did all the awful things he was accused of. He didn't want to do it, he was forced to. The only thing he ever wanted was human spaceflight. I'm inclined to give him a pass.

Best,
-Slashy

 

[Nuke]

well it was that or the gulag. i think he made the right choice.

[Just Jim]

24 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

I don't judge people by their circumstances, I judge them by their motivations and accomplishments. Believe it or not, there were some "pedants" who were truly good people. See John Rabe.

In Dr. Von Braun's case, yes he did all the awful things he was accused of. He didn't want to do it, he was forced to. The only thing he ever wanted was human spaceflight. I'm inclined to give him a pass.

Best,
-Slashy

I have to agree... You need to seriously examine the whole story. Back then, in most every case, if you didn't do exactly what you were told, you and your entire family might just disappear some night, and never be seen again. 

So each case has to be looked at individually. Did they co-operate because they wanted to, or were they just trying to do what they had to in order to stay alive?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Just Jim

[YNM]

Not all pedants were pedants while not all pedants were pedants.

 

I know @Pawelk198604, you're trying to find a justification.

But there's no gunpoint at your justification.

Hard work is hard.

[Pawelk198604]

It's seems that someone did some 1984 to my post it seems that nobody like N word as in izaN   

Edited April 8, 2018 by Pawelk198604

[Gargamel]

Just now, Pawelk198604 said:

It's seems that someone did some 1984 to my post it seems that nobody like N word as in  izaN   

It's an automatic filter, as they try to keep the posts family freindly, non political, and civil.   None of which describe "pedant".   Hence they filter and replace the word.  We know what you mean, and that's sufficient for the conversation. 

[GoSlash27]

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

It's an automatic filter, as they try to keep the posts family freindly, non political, and civil.   None of which describe "pedant".   Hence they filter and replace the word.  We know what you mean, and that's sufficient for the conversation. 

It took me a moment to figure out the word choice. The phrase [grammar- (National Socialist)] is in pretty common usage, and replacing it with "grammar pedant" seems natural. Doesn't fit for any other usage of (National Socialist), though.

Best,
-Slashy

[KG3]

I watched a documentary about von Braun recently.  What I got out of it was that if you look at the number of people actually harmed by the V2 rocket vs. what it cost to design, build and deploy the thing you will find that it was by far the most expensive and least reliable weapon ever built.  At least von Braun managed to tie up lots of vital resources that could have been used elsewhere in the war effort.   

[Scotius]

Because no one is perfect. Because we all make mistakes. Also, this:

“Only Evil and Greater Evil exist and beyond them, in the shadows, lurks True Evil. True Evil, Geralt, is something you can barely imagine, even if you believe nothing can still surprise you. And sometimes True Evil seizes you by the throat and demands that you choose between it and another, slightly lesser, Evil.”
― Andrzej Sapkowski, The Last Wish

 

Wernher von Braun did many bad things during WWII. But he also did a lot of good things to redeem himself.

[Bill Phil]

He had a questionable past, yes, but working for the Third Reich was a means to an end. Many people who were in important positions were required to be in the party. This also extended to the rocket program. The V-2/A4 was an important development, and helped lead to the Saturn V. 

Also, my city/town may not exist in the way it does today if it weren't for him and the things he did in the area.

[tater]

7 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Had the Germany won the WWII, entire US team working on nukes would be facing the music for dropping those bombs on civilians. Again, brilliant minds that were put into position they did not necessarily like, but had to work in.

The time limit for the Germans to have won in Europe utterly, then build a real navy and learn how to do amphibious invasion (something they had not two clues about) was mid 1945. At that point, it's Germany that gets nuked (Japan losing was a foregone conclusion, the USN followed the prewar Orange plan, and had no doubts about the outcome). The counterfactual where Germany can win is absurd.

[Just Jim]

4 minutes ago, wumpus said:

I was recently browsing von Braun's wiki for a comment, and noted that it lists him as enlisting in the SS in 1933.  This is not a time when you could be ordered to join the most extremely "pedantic" corps possible.  While his eventual rank of Sturmbannführer [major] is fairly widely published, if he actually enlisted in 1933 that changes everything.  There might have been "fine people" forced into the SS [1944 and later only], but in general that is the home of only the most vile of humanity.

- note: I'm taking this wiki entry with more than a grain of salt, but really wondering where it came from.
 

I'm not positive... but if I recall right, at first he fell for the propaganda, hoping it would give him the funds he needed to start building space-related rockets. It wasn't until later, like everyone else, he found the promises that were made to him were all lies.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Just Jim

[NSEP]

Von Braun wanted to make rockets for space travel, not war. It takes a while for rocket scientist to convince their nation to use rockets for spaceflight, not war. Von Braun did not convice N-Germany into using space peacefully enough, apparently, or it was too late.

Pretty much every lead rocket designer of any nation (under military tension) in history had to go through this. The R-7, Jupiter and Taepodong 2, were all missles converted into satellite launchers.

Edited April 8, 2018 by NSEP
(under military tension)

[wumpus]

2 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

I'm not positive... but if I recall right, at first he fell for the propaganda, hoping it would give him the funds he needed to start building space-related rockets. It wasn't until later, like everyone else, he found the promises that were made to him were all lies.

That would explain the later acceptance of the commission (which is well known), but not the alleged enlisting [which is why I posted it].  It also does little to mitigate the subsequent crimes against humanity he committed to simply manufacture those rockets (more slaves were worked to death than ever simply killed by them as weapons of war).

[Just Jim]

3 minutes ago, wumpus said:

It also does little to mitigate the subsequent crimes against humanity he committed to simply manufacture those rockets (more slaves were worked to death than ever simply killed by them as weapons of war).

True... but at that point I think most all of them were doing it at gun-point. I don't know... but I can't imagine how it must have been when the wrong word, or move, or gesture, could get a person shot on sight, no questions asked... or much, much worse.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Just Jim

[wumpus]

3 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

True... but at that point I think most all of them were doing it at gun-point. I don't know... but I can't imagine how it must have been when the wrong word, or move, or gesture, could get a person shot on sight, no questions asked... or much, much worse.

Oddly enough, anyone in such a position could simply request a transfer.  Himler, after couldn't stomach being present for the killings.  Of course, there was the catch: nearly all the transfers were going to the Eastern Front, and that was essentially a death sentence (with often a brief journey through Hell on Earth first).

[Just Jim]

4 minutes ago, wumpus said:

Oddly enough, anyone in such a position could simply request a transfer.  Himler, after couldn't stomach being present for the killings.  Of course, there was the catch: nearly all the transfers were going to the Eastern Front, and that was essentially a death sentence (with often a brief journey through Hell on Earth first).

Exactly! So what real choice was there? Disappear some night and get sent to a camp for disobeying an order, no matter how justified it might be... or request a transfer, and end up freezing to death somewhere outside Stalingrad. Or disobey an order, and still end-up freezing to death...

And the further on the war got, the worse it got. Again, without actually being there, and seeing for yourself, it's hard to say what really happened in many cases.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Just Jim

[Shpaget]

2 hours ago, tater said:

The time limit for the Germans to have won in Europe utterly, then build a real navy and learn how to do amphibious invasion (something they had not two clues about) was mid 1945. At that point, it's Germany that gets nuked (Japan losing was a foregone conclusion, the USN followed the prewar Orange plan, and had no doubts about the outcome). The counterfactual where Germany can win is absurd.

You missed my point completely. My post had nothing to do with strategic or material capabilities of neither Germany nor USA, or likelihood of Axis winning.

 

[Dman979]

Guys, threads like this don't end well. Invariably, they either end up political, flamewars, or trolling, no matter how they start out.

While it may not seem like it to you, us moderators get to see the unredacted version of the posts, and it can get ugly. That's why I'm locking this thread.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Dman979
Changed wording.