Air Superiority Competition Unlimited Re-Continued - Now in KSP 1.4 and BDA 1.2!

[Piatzin]

7 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Even with default, tanky, hitpoints, HogMaster beats basically anything hands-down.*

Mm-hm

[Box of Stardust]

So I just ran the 5v5s between Viper and TFD.

They were all really quite dumb and not worth posting, so here's the quick rundown:

Viper doesn't move on the leaderboard.

Analysis:

TFD is a pretty good demonstrator of the value of excessiveness and combining a few annoying qualities together that make it a working merge-killer and a dogfighter. Putting 5 TFDs together makes all those guns set at 2500m range a little more effective, ensuring a quick kill on one Viper.

The amount of flares mounted on a TFD, let alone 5, makes them immune to Sidewinders in the merge. Vipers can fire off a Sidewinder or two, but the routing doesn't really have any effect due to the short range that they're already in by the time they fire.

TFD is also slow, which works in favor of the BD AI which likes to turn a lot. It also has a strange tendency to always be lower than its opponents in altitude, which also works in favor of the weird BD AI tendencies.

In the dogfight, idk why, but Vipers never really turn back in.

So it's pretty much a dumb, boring snowball for the TFDs to win.

My conclusion about how to win in a straight-on BD AI dogfight is this: fly slow so the AI has less of a tendency to overshoot. Have lots of guns. And just kill all the other planes that are speeding around the now-centralized allied force. Again, the Gunbrick method. This is assuming missiles can't lock onto the aircraft and rout them or there is no routing device, because if the aircraft is routed, they'll be out of position for the following dogfight and a merge-kill won't happen.

[53miner53]

I think I have a plan for the P-5a...

[Box of Stardust]

Next battle.

@Wolf5698's Lynx vs Viper-ASP MkIIc

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

I may consider changing up the rules so that only Veterans will start off against #5, while non-Veterans will begin their climb by facing off #6.

Lynx has all the right elements in place, but it's missing the maximum utilization of them. It's a small target, which works in its favor, but it's not as maneuverable as it could be, which means it often is not able to get into favorable positions quickly enough. In the one match the Lynx did win, it was often in advantageous positions, with the Vipers unable to react well enough to escape gunfire.

It also doesn't seem to get as much utility out of its Sidewinders as it could.

Although it runs too hot with afterburners on, this doesn't seem to have much negative effect in the merge against Viper.

Also its drop tanks still aren't the best. Modular Missile Manager will drop GPS weapons at the maximum possible range, so with this set to engage at 40km, it pretty much drops them right after takeoff. It's also still excessive amounts of fuel, and combined with twin drop tanks which stagger dropping, made for very messy takeoffs and formation-forming.

Lastly, here is an extra-scary version of the Lynx that I made about a month ago because the platform still piqued my curiosity. Hasn't changed too much in terms of the pieces used, just how they're used. Just needed its full potential unlocked. Will I submit this here? Maybe, maybe not. It'll be in ASC Light Drones though when I decide to post that challenge.

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Box of Stardust]

Next battle. @Wolf5698's Lynx is on the offense against @ZLM-Master's V-TEK

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Firstly, let me say that it took me a while to figure out how to arrange both teams on the runway so that they'd cooperate and get into a similarly tight formation. Which is why in Sortie #2, I gave up and let them fly as-is.

Which, as you can see, can make a difference, with the Lynx able to get into those odd positions where it can make the kills. Also because somehow, a V-TEK had a PRD mishap that put them down a plane.

As for the aircraft, Lynx still just can't make the hits due to its relatively lower maneuverability, allowing the V-TEKs to control the fight. As well, the V-TEK has weapon ranges that allow it more utility out of its Sidewinders.

Lynx continues going downward and will test against the P-5 next.

 

 

 

[Box of Stardust]

@Wolf5698's Lynx on the offense vs @53miner53's P-5 Flash.

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

It was a decently close battle.

Lynx had the edge on thrust, but it couldn't put it to good enough use. Its low gun count didn't help against the small P-5s, nor did it have the necessary degree of accuracy or maneuverability to place its guns on the small targets when it needed to.

P-5's lack of thrust didn't seem to affect it much in this battle, as its greater maneuverability seemed to pay off this time. The PRDs broke up the merge as usual, preventing any initial Sidewinder shots from the Lynxes.

Lynx settles at #8 on the Tier 2 board.

 

[Box of Stardust]

@Wolf5698's Cheetah vs @ZLM-Master's V-TEK

 

Spoiler

I'm going to make an executive decision and say that an aircraft that does not fire its weapons for any reason is immediately disqualified and will not place.

Also, given the new existence of the Tier 2 board, I've decided to bring back the Berzerker and see where it'll land there, so that will be the next battle, which I'll potentially do now instead of tomorrow, since I've apparently got nothing better to do. At the very least, I'll start its series.

[Box of Stardust]

Last one for this mass of battles.

Spoilers: you guys are gonna love this one.

@Earthlinger's Berzerker 2.1 is back on the offense, going up against #6 spot, @ZLM-Master's V-TEK.

 

 

Spoiler

Garuda Team, engage.

Spoiler

Mobius 1, engage.

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

WEW

UP AND DOWN AND UP AND DOWN.

You know, I actually kept having to re-record this the first time, because a lot of weird stuff was happening. Sometimes the V-TEKs would absolutely kick the Berzerkers. Then the V-TEKs would have these crazy AI glitches where they'd dump their countermeasures. It was weird.

Then I lost all that footage so I had to re-record the entire battle except for Sortie #1.

Pretty fortunate, because this was way more exciting of a way to convey the message that 'V-TEK and Berzerker are close in performance, but V-TEK has the edge'.

So, what exactly happened here?

Well, I know for a fact that while Berzerker is fairly maneuverable (I don't buy that it's the most maneuverable; that goes to something like the Squirrel or PEGASys or TFD), it's also... pretty unstable and kinda gets its gun kills by pure perseverance. I will admit that I think it has a maneuverability edge over V-TEK. It also does not use its Sidewinders very much, instead sticking to inefficiently trying to gun down targets at range. It's a hot target, but it doesn't seem to come into play very much.

V-TEK's advantages come in its PRD and small-profile design, the latter of which especially helps in conjunction with Berzerker's inaccuracy. It's also far more stable, requiring less time to accurately slew onto target. A few times it gets kills in quick passes. It also gets somewhat more utility out of its Sidewinders when the opportunity arises.

Still, they seem fairly equal, with V-TEK having an edge due to slightly more advantages. Battle came down to who had better positions most of the time, and in this sense, V-TEK generally had the better ability to dictate the battle.

But oh man, just when you thought a 2v3 was hopeless- disaster struck! A near-flawless PRD-launching series is broken in such a crucial match! A V-TEK goes down due to a mishap from likely its own PRD detonating on itself, unable to safely clear a missile before firing. In this 2v2, the Berzerkers were able to take advantage of even ground and get a 2:1 kill ratio.

And then the final battle.

If you thought that was hopeless, you should've learned from the previous battle.

The PRD does its job, giving the V-TEK the window it needed to get into a more favorable position. A lightning quick passing kill quickly brought the battle even, and then it goes on to prove the utility in lowering gun range to be able to use Sidewinders to deter a head-on pass.

Well fought.

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

It also has a strange tendency to always be lower than its opponents in altitude, which also works in favor of the weird BD AI tendencies.

I did that intentionally by lowering the default altitude so that planes that have a higher minimum altitude are forced to stay above it.(the TFD can then sneak up on the opponent and get him!)

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, dundun93 said:

I did that intentionally by lowering the default altitude so that planes that have a higher minimum altitude are forced to stay above it.(the TFD can then sneak up on the opponent and get him!)

Right, except default altitude only comes into play when planes aren't in combat; only minimum altitude is used in combat. 

Not just that, but I also did testing on higher altitude maps that are above both aircraft's default altitude. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Right, except default altitude only comes into play when planes aren't in combat; only minimum altitude is used in combat. 

Not just that, but I also did testing on higher altitude maps that are above both aircraft's default altitude. 

"Sorry I can't add any more likes today"

[Piatzin]

@Box of Stardust Well that was exciting

The Berzerker's certainly in need of retirement XD

It might be better off going up against stock planes though. Back in the original thread, it was one of the smaller planes, but nowadays it looks fat compared to the other drones

[Box of Stardust]

On 4/29/2018 at 12:46 PM, Earthlinger said:

@Box of Stardust Well that was exciting

The Berzerker's certainly in need of retirement XD

It might be better off going up against stock planes though. Back in the original thread, it was one of the smaller planes, but nowadays it looks fat compared to the other drones

If you want me to be honest, I could probably tune the Berzerker to put up a better fight against the V-TEK lol. It's has enough of the right pieces in place, it just doesn't use them as well as it could.

Not just that, but using fancy routing devices, it'll have a better chance.

I'd suggest giving it one more go for KSP 1.4.2 and BDA 1.2, but that's up to you.

 

Or if you want to go full-on like the rest of us, Airplane Plus! It's just one mod and does wonderful things!

Or you could build a smaller, 6-7t drone with only one Panther. Most of my drones only use APP for the Tiger engines and the nice Size 0 Short Tail Connector as a sleeker nose cone, and sometimes the half-size Size 0 fuel tank. I was able to convert a Basilisk drone to use Panthers and only stock parts (Super Basilisk -F1), so it's entirely possible!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[SuicidalInsanity]

Alright, not sure if it's ever been used, but as the only (currently) legal weapon mod, Aviator Arsenal is now ported to BDAc 1.2 for those of you crazy enough to use WW2-era weapons in the face of the latest Orkish gunships high-volume direct-fire craft we're starting to see.
 

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Alright, not sure if it's ever been used, but as the only (currently) legal weapon mod, Aviator Arsenal is now ported to BDAc 1.2 for those of you crazy enough to use WW2-era weapons in the face of the latest Orkish gunships high-volume direct-fire craft we're starting to see.
 

For a while I was actually considering using Bofors on my craft because of aircraft tankiness in the new BDA. I mean, 40mm cannon shells have to be pretty effective when they hit, I expect.

Also, AA is only named here because of copy+pasting rules from the last thread, but the mod list is really open-ended for the most part if a mod passes review.

[Box of Stardust]

One for the night, continuing the Tier 2 series with Berzerker.

@Earthlinger's Berzerker 2.1 vs @53miner53's P-5 Flash. Camera Tools shenanigans included; I've discovered that using Camera Tools to observe matches needs more practice. But maybe it's a good idea?

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

Consistency.

Consistency is key.

Berzerker's wild inaccuracy due to AI instability and unoptimized weapon ranges work against it here against the tiny P-5s. Again, 4 Sidewinders and never uses all of them.

Meanwhile, P-5 has 2 Sidewinders which, in their case, they fire off since the Berzerkers are quite hot targets. More importantly, they are really quite accurate and put the single Vulcan to good use. The PRD prevents Berzerker from using its gun advantage in a merge, where its generation of fighter was strong in.

Still, it was a fairly close battle all the way down. If Berzerker downed just one more aircraft in Sortie #3, P-5s might have been beaten due to facing a full 3-plane flight.

Alas, the Berzerker was done in by the final 1v1 in one final pass, and it just couldn't get its guns on target fast enough.

 

 

[Box of Stardust]

@Earthlinger's Berzerker continues its downward progression through Tier 2 to face off against #8 spot, @Wolf5698's Lynx:

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Results:

Analysis:

Alright, so let me say this up front:

When tuning the BD Flight AI, the Max Speed setting does actually matter. You never want to set it to a speed that your plane can't reach because that usually spirals into causing bad things.

First off, it usually means afterburners are running. In Berzerker's case, that makes it a Sidewinder target that breaks any possibility of merging.

In Lynx's case it's just... suboptimal. However, in Lynx's case, I'm pretty sure this is a contributor to its somewhat poor maneuverability- because the flight AI is always trying to reach that max speed that it can't hit.

In Berzerker's case, I don't know why its really high max speed doesn't seem to affect it as much on this end, but it doesn't.

So, what happened in this battle?

Well, in the first two sorties, the Lynxes were done in by a crucial aircraft getting cored. Not something you see often here, but that's what a relatively exposed probe core does in terms of a weakness. If it weren't for that, the Lynxes were putting up a pretty good fight, being able to use their Sidewinders to decent effect. They were fairly accurate once pointed in the general direction of the target.

Unfortunately for them, the Berzerkers were just better at actually engaging targets instead of flying around trying to re-engage. The doubled mass of gunfire made up for the inaccuracy, and the Lynxes, while small, aren't so small that it was a great difficulty to get the kills.

Berzerker settles in the #8 spot.

 

 

[Piatzin]

4 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

Berzerker settles in the #8 spot.

XD

[Dimas152]

NiceMk2Bodies has been updated for 1.4.x, soo can my KF-X/IF-X C-100 enter the queue?

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

NiceMk2Bodies has been updated for 1.4.x, soo can my KF-X/IF-X C-100 enter the queue?

Again? If you fixed the not-firing-missiles problem, sure. Otherwise, I have no reason to re-run it, since I already did it in the previous thread.

[Piatzin]

My proudest moment

1:33

 

Looking back at it though, the Lancers are REALLY wobbly.....

[exbyde]

5 hours ago, Earthlinger said:

My proudest moment

1:33

 

Looking back at it though, the Lancers are REALLY wobbly.....

The Kelps forgot to dodge.

[Piatzin]

4 hours ago, exbyde said:

The Kelps forgot to dodge.

Lol

And welcome back .-.

[Box of Stardust]

We return by starting off the next Tier 1 series.

@dundun93's TFD 2.1 vs Viper-ASP MkIIc.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

TFD 2.1 is pretty much 'ASC: The Meme'. It's a TFD mixed with 50% more firepower than Gunbrick and the VampSquirrel MLRS PRD quite literally yanked off of one and plunked onto this.

This was probably one of the most un-fun battles I've had the displeasure of filming.

Now, let me clarify that I'm not mad that Viper lost; I could care less, honestly. It's #5, something is bound to beat it eventually.

But TFD 2.1 is less of a 'designed' aircraft than one that's just mashed together with extra excessiveness on the guns, which turns the game into a slideshow at times. It's also a showcase of how absolutely boring gun spam is. Do remember that when I first submitted Gunbrick, I wanted to be proven wrong, because it is really, really, quite dumb.

As for the actual battles, funny enough, it still could've gone either way.

You know the weakness of my aircraft? Like Viper? The merge.

You know what TFD was traditionally strong in? The merge.

You know what the VS MLRS PRD does? Remove the merge.

Congratulations, you almost played yourself. Except 16 guns is enough compensation apparently. Even to win the 2v3.

As for Viper, I'd attribute the loss to its lesser state of flight tuning and unrefined weapon ranges. It uses its Sidewinders, but not as much as PEGASys would, which, in the case of this match, would've been really helpful in avoiding the head-on jousting matches with a plane with 5x as much gun as it.

So yeah, TFD 2.1 moves on.

 

 

[Guest]

Once again, vulcan spam wins over a good design.