Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Raptor42]

This challenge is so overcomplicated which makes it awesome. Sadly I don't have time to do it. Also turnaround time for lauchers is great idea, I think I'll implement it in my normal career playthrough

[Death Engineering]

It's probably a good time to bring this up before it's asked: the oupost module(s) cannot be considered as a DAV. (If it was, the permanent Outpost goal would not be met resulting in primary mission goal failure).

Edited July 21, 2018 by Death Engineering
incorrect auto-correct

[funk]

23 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

Duna Space Station - yeah, the question of likely high-latitude operations leaves a huge question of where to place the station - polar orbit makes huge issues with interplanetary transfers, equatorial orbit has issues with high latitudes. Probably equatorial orbit is better overall.

Was thinking about the same... Best place would be probably Ike, but your taxis need to be capable to go there.

23 minutes ago, Alchemist said:

ife support sustainability: water seems to be fully recirculated if you don't spend it in converters,  oxygen regeneration from CO2 is not 100% self-sufficient, but when you can pump some extra CO2 from the air

Is there CO2 on Duna? Haven't played with TLS for a long time, that's why I'm wondering. Just figured out, that if you run Sabatier process O2 is self sufficient but needs ~ 1u water/7u food resupply. Does TLS implement more resources to harvest?

Edited July 21, 2018 by funk

[Alchemist]

6 minutes ago, funk said:

Is there CO2 on Duna? Haven't played with TLS for a long time, that's why I'm wondering. Just figured out, that if you run Sabatier process O2 is self sufficient but needs ~ 1u water/7u food resupply. Does TLS implement more resources to harvest?

TAC-LS comes prepacked with community resourse pack, which seems to be shared by a multitude of mods. So yes, there are such resources defined in the atmospheres, but in TAC-LS itself I've only found some filter to get oxygen on Laythe. But various planet base or ISRU mods may have such extractors. Planetary Base System has just such part that can scoop several resources if those are present in the atmosphere, some other mods may have the same just in different shape.

[Laie]

@Alchemist if Duna is in any way like Mars, there should be plenty of CO2 in the atmosphere. I only know TACLS from Realism Overhaul, I have no idea what converters it has in stock. But I know that defining your own  isn't very difficult.

As for myself, I haven't settled on a LS system yet... Kerbalism has been tossed out after I had a good long look at it, I'll try TACLS next. If there is no ready-made solution to harvest CO2 from the Martian atmosphere, you can count on me creating one Real Soon Now (TM).

Just by the way, am I the only one who struggles with scale? The food from community resource pack has real densities; if Kerbals also consume real amounts, you need food containers of disproportionate size compared to our station parts. That's half of the reason why I discarded Kerbalism. Let's see if TACLS does better.

Just now I'm looking at several rover part packs and find them to be positively huge, even the supposedly small ones being of SUV size. Feline Utilities hands me a veritable school bus that can barely seat six, and has no cargo capacity to speak of.

[Norcalplanner]

@Laie Buffalo is a good rover that integrates nicely with Pathfinder, which is great for surface bases, and has great cargo capacity.  They're large and pressurized, though, so it may not be what you're looking for.

In other news, I started working on craft for this challenge.  Commsats are largely done (some minor packaging tweaks may still be needed) and the current task is tweaking the reusable Skycrane for bringing base modules down to the surface.

[Death Engineering]

DOMA Challenge - Year 2 Day 300

Documenting the DE-XL 40t lifter and the first two launches in an attempt to complete this challenge:

• Launch I:
  • Duna Outpost Module 1: Mobile outpost supporting 5 kerbals. 
  • Reusable Nuclear Propulsion Module: Interplanetary space tug.
  • Four COMSAT probes: 3 Duna probes, One Ike probe for interplanetary relay network.
• Launch II: 
  • Duna Space Bus: Fully reusable 5 crew Duna-Ike shuttle
  • Surface supply pod: Life support supply drop for Outpost
  • 3 crew Kerbin Return pod: Kerbin return/landing pod

Five crew arriving at the Outpost module (Year 1 Day 236)

Crew will land on Duna in the mobile outpost and await the systems to get them home. Also on this first trip to Duna is a complete COMSAT network for Duna and Ike and the reusable Nuclear space tug (which will ferry the first crew home to Kerbin).

Launch 2: Late Duna transfer (Year 1 Day 280)

Using a slightly longer burn, the resupply module and Duna Space Bus head to Duna. Also on this launch is the three crew Kerbin return module which will mate with the Space Tug already in Duna orbit for the trip home.

Crew landing on Duna (Year 2 Day 63)

Five crew landed in the bottom of Duna's Western Canyon. This will be the primary Outpost site. A later mission will deliver a mobile Science Lab which will be used to fully explore Duna's surface.

Outpost Supplies and Upgrades depart for Duna (Year 1 Day 280)

The Duna Space Bus will land near the Outpost and be used to bring the first crew rotation to LDO. Only three of the five crew will return on the first window, meaning the two outpost crew might get 'stressed-out'. This launch also includes the Kerbin-return/ landing pod for the three crew. The pod will dock with the Space Tug that originally brought the crew out to Duna.

Outpost docked to supply module

Complete Imgur album link

Part/Gameplay mod list other details:

Spoiler

• Stockalike Station Parts Expansion Redux
• Kerbal Flight Data
• KRASH
• TAC Life Support
• Kerbal Alarm Clock

Current Achievement Points: 4

• Duna space bus
• Positive uplink

Current Mission Value: 1185

Upcoming launches:

Launch III: Ike mining and ISRU operation

Launch IV: Interplanetary space transport/Duna space station

 

 

 

[funk]

Great stuff @Death Engineering! May I ask, why the supply module has four Klaws?

Just a little update on my plans how to implement the cycler:

Due to insane amounts of dv needed for the taxi, I won't be able to fullfill the requirements for "Advanced deep space transit", in spite of that the taxi itself could do it, only the crew needs to shrink from 12 to 6 Kerbals.

This slides  gave me some inspiration for my planning. Even if there are some realworld attempts to use low-thrust cyclers to reduce dv needed, its barely viable in KSP. That's why I'll take the approach shown in the picture.

Still need to do some work on the outpost, stations and launch schedule... hopefully next weekend.

 

Edit: There'll be an inbound cycler implemented as well, it's just the other way around.

Edited July 22, 2018 by funk

[Death Engineering]

10 minutes ago, funk said:

May I ask, why the supply module has four Klaws?

Looking good!  Is there a mission report link somewhere? 

The klaws are for resource transfer. Easier than trying to dock on the surface.

[funk]

10 minutes ago, Death Engineering said:

Looking good!  Is there a mission report link somewhere? 

I haven't launched anything yet, still in design and testing phase.

[Alchemist]

All right, I think I'm sticking with this launcher design:

The payload capacity is pretty much exactly 50 tons - and I squeezed 3 satellites under the base, because there was empty space in the fairing

And the second stage flies home as well (just don't forget to recover the first stage from the runway!)

 

Now, 50 tons to LKO reusable launcher gives us 300 days launch interval. Which means 3 more launches before 2nd window (and a possibility for a late launch slightly after), including some way to score early prestige and one of the options to prevent overstressing the crew.

Basically, the options I see are:

1. late launch (slightly after 1st window, transfer length doesn't matter) for 2-crew return vehicle. Station, space bus and backup AV (also, need not forget the last commsat) + bringing 2 new crewmembers  + food supplies on second window
2. 4-crew fast transfer swap on second window. Proceed with the infrastructure, but not critical to complete it before third window. Maybe expand the base on third window
3. 4-crew fast transfer swap + sending second base module (4 more crew) on second window. Orbital infrastructure completion delayed to the third window.

Need to evaluate actual design propositions for various vehicles before making final decision.

 

P.S.

The space bus should be good for Duna but is a bit draggy for launching from Kerbin (and not really fitting in a fairing). Funnily enough, the launcher still barely gets it up (with reduced fuel, so that it is a bit below 50 tons, there is still more than enough to go to Minmus), probably winning a bit by not having a heavy fairing.
Fun thing - had to add an improvement to the launcher flyback script. To burn excess rocket fuel (otherwise it has pitch authority issues). How did it end up with excess? Separation happens at certain first stage fuel level and with draggy payload it didn't get as fast and boost back turned out a bit cheaper than usual.

Mining, refuelling, crew transfer... wait, it doesn't have science equipment for going to explore Ike? Never mind, with KAS we could just borrow that from the base, no need for another set.

Speaking of which, it shouldn't impact the score if couple crewmembers spend a portion of their mission hopping around in this craft instead of being at the base, right?

[Death Engineering]

1 hour ago, Alchemist said:

Speaking of which, it shouldn't impact the score if couple crewmembers spend a portion of their mission hopping around in this craft instead of being at the base, right?

Outpost crew can leave the surface and return to the base, however 'kerbal days' (Mission Value) is only counted for time the kerbal is actually on Duna's surface.

[Norcalplanner]

Playing around with math and launch vehicle payloads... 

632 and even fractions thereof are becoming my new favorite numbers.  158 looks appealing. 

[Blasty McBlastblast]

@Norcalplanner I was having similar thoughts, although settled on 150t payloads to allow a little leeway for fuelling in orbit before transfer.

My current initial payload (after many iterations) looks a little like this so far:

After being placed into orbit, the transfer craft has just enough fuel to detach and fly to Minmus for refuelling (maybe 2 trips to top up everything), then I should be underway at the first transfer window.

Using USI-LS, there is enough supplies on board to last a full return journey (if things go badly), but once landed I should be able to produce more than I consume insitu.

I have also devised a cunning landing method whereby all surface gear enters together, then separates above the landing site. Each module's chutes deploy at slightly different heights so they spread out and won't land on top of one another (or despawn because of in-flight distance!)  

[Kerbolitto]

Does your wheeled modules docks to the outpost and turn it into a mobile base ?

@Blasty McBlastblast

[Alchemist]

17 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

Outpost crew can leave the surface and return to the base, however 'kerbal days' (Mission Value) is only counted for time the kerbal is actually on Duna's surface.

In case of refueling the interplanetary ship the crew isn't going to leave the surface for more than a few hours, so no Duna-days should be lost on that account (OK, leaving possible Ike expedition to either year 10 or maybe orbital outpost crew if I get to the point of keeping some extra there). However, they are likely to spend quite some time drilling ground in the space bus far away from the base (namely if it is not really feasible to run resupply from the base's current location - well, there always is the alternative option to drag the entire mobile base to the mining site...). Is that OK? Maybe only if the crew still has dedicated quarters in the base?

[hoioh]

Just a little preview, I've designed a small exploration drone that can fly some distance from a base or rover to scout ahead:

[Kerbolitto]

Some news on my attempt :

 

 

 

I managed to reorbit some pods, mine on Ike, and now all my stuff is waiting in LDO with tanks almost fully filled up.

 

[Death Engineering]

3 hours ago, Alchemist said:

there always is the alternative option to drag the entire mobile base to the mining site...). Is that OK? Maybe only if the crew still has dedicated quarters in the base?

If you are mining on Duna, sure. Ike, no. 

 

3 hours ago, hoioh said:

I've designed a small exploration drone that can fly some distance

Now that is far out!

[hoioh]

BTW, is it allowed to put some sattelites within the kerbin sphere of influence? like scanners around the Mun and Minmus? or do these need to be part of the mission infrastructure?

[Alchemist]

Well, scratch the last development, here is my new SpaceBus!

Almost the same performance as the old one (a bit less fuel capacity), but much better looking and with something more to say about choosing landing sites on Duna.
Also I totally love how PBS has an ISRU rig properly compatible with a horizontal vehicle.

How does it land? It flips

 

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

A couple of quick questions (I'm going to be away from the forums for a bit, so don't worry if I don't reply in a couple of days):

With regards to reusable SLVs: is liftoff mass the same as wet mass? Or just dry mass + payload?

Is the Making History expansion considered balanced? 

Is Tweakable Everything, SpaceY, SpaceY expanded, KW rocketry rebalanced, Atomic age, Procedural parts, Planetary Base Systems, or Tweakscale considered balanced?

[doggonemess]

Are reactors allowed, as in the ones in Near Future Electrical? 

[Norcalplanner]

22 minutes ago, doggonemess said:

Are reactors allowed, as in the ones in Near Future Electrical? 

I sure hope so. They're on a number of my craft, such as the miners.

[Death Engineering]

23 hours ago, hoioh said:

BTW, is it allowed to put some sattelites within the kerbin sphere of influence? like scanners around the Mun and Minmus? or do these need to be part of the mission infrastructure?

Essentially, anything that isn't crew is part of the mission architecture. All comsat/research probes included. 

 

23 hours ago, Alchemist said:

How does it land? It flips

¿snqǝɔɐdS ʇɐɥʇ uo ʍǝɹɔ ʎuɐɯ ʍoH

 

21 hours ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

With regards to reusable SLVs: is liftoff mass the same as wet mass? Or just dry mass + payload?

Is the Making History expansion considered balanced? 

Is Tweakable Everything, SpaceY, SpaceY expanded, KW rocketry rebalanced, Atomic age, Procedural parts, Planetary Base Systems, or Tweakscale considered balanced?

Cheers @Mad Rocket Scientist! I've stuck to just 'Mad Scientist'.. you know, to keep my options open.  

Wet mass. 

Making History accepted. Don't see anything wrong with the other ones, either. That said, I don't use any of those mods. Any input would be appreciated.

21 hours ago, doggonemess said:

Are reactors allowed, as in the ones in Near Future Electrical? 

 

21 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

I sure hope so. They're on a number of my craft, such as the miners.

We're go for launch on those reactors.