Message to Squad to Retire Curseforge

[Sharpy]

21 hours ago, Lisias said:

And we need to define what's "better'. And to whom.

The SpaceDock's API is excellent, but Curse allows me to fine trim exactly what versions of KSP my mod runs, while SpaceDock only allow me to define one.

Right now, there're mods that runs on 1.4.1 to 1.4.4, but not on 1.4.5.  And there're others that runs fine on 1.4.5 and on 1.5.1.

CurseForge allows me to set this, SpaceDock doesn't.

*shrug* a couple days ago I picked the newest Community Tech Tree off Curse; it was tagged as compatible with 1.4.5, as I needed. No 1.5 version in sight. Upon startup it displays 'Wrong version, use 1.5'

Seems like Curse was simply slow to update their own game version list and the mod maintainer had to release a 1.5 release as 1.4.5 because that's what was available to pick.

[Lisias]

Just now, Sharpy said:

Seems like Curse was simply slow to update their own game version list and the mod maintainer had to release a 1.5 release as 1.4.5 because that's what was available to pick.

Well, I didn't had this problem. When I needed to upload a add-on compatible with 1.4.1, 1.4.3, 1.4.5 and 1.5.1 (but not with 1.4.4, where it borked), I could.

But, granted, I didn't hushed to upload a 1.5.1 compatible mod. I tested it properly before.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Lisias
ugh. =P

[Snark]

Moving thread to Kerbal Network,  since this is primarily about websites rather than the KSP game itself.

[Lisias]

On 10/28/2018 at 7:44 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

They do, and I’m one of the donaters

I may be wrong, and language barrier is a sunny beach, but… Donations are 'funding", not "revenue" as far as I know.

Would they charging for the Service itself, I think they would be violating some of the Forum (and KSP EULA) terms.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/where-do-nonprofits-get-their-revenue-2502011

Edited October 31, 2018 by Lisias
Better link,

[linuxgurugamer]

12 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I may be wrong, and language barrier is a sunny beach, but… Donations are 'funding", not "revenue" as far as I know.

Would they charging for the Service itself, I think they would be violating some of the Forum (and KSP EULA) terms.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/where-do-nonprofits-get-their-revenue-2502011

Non-profits have revenue:  income, especially when of a company or organization and of a substantial nature

What they have if the income is greater than expenses, is a surplus, not profit.

But this is semantics, I think we all understand what's being talked about

[Lisias]

Just now, linuxgurugamer said:

Non-profits have revenue:  income, especially when of a company or organization and of a substantial nature

What they have if the income is greater than expenses, is a surplus, not profit.

But this is semantics, I think we all understand what's being talked about

Revenue is money earn in exchange of services, no matter the company offering the services being a non-profit or not.

It's not only semantics, is the core of my argument. A company, in order to be attractive to other company's business plan, need a Revenue (ideally, a sustainable one). Revenue Streams are, usually, result of a successful Business Plan.

Otherwise, it's too much a risk to rely on them.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Lisias
tyop. agani.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Revenue is money earn in exchange of services, no matter the company offering the services being a non-profit or not.

It's not only semantics, is the core of my argument. A company, in order to be attractive to other company's business plan, need a Revenue (ideally, a sustainable one). Revenue Streams are, usually, result of a successful Business Plan.

Otherwise, it's too much a risk to rely on them.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  What I'm saying is that nonprofits can have revenue as well, it's what is done with that revenue which is what is important.

Also, I wonder whether Spacedock charging for access to the server would violate the rules or licenses.  Charging for individual downloads, I can agree with.  But having a flat monthly charge (which, BTW, isn't needed since it gets enough by donations) for some sort of improved access should be ok

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I'm not disagreeing with you.  What I'm saying is that nonprofits can have revenue as well, it's what is done with that revenue which is what is important.

I'm not questioning the "survivability" of SpaceDock. It's very possible (almost a sure) that SpaceDock would survive most of the commercial sites that are being born today.

But without a business plan, potential partners would be unwilling to be associated with. Take, as an example, what's happening to Youtube: they are loosing (ou had loose, I don't know if this is still happening) advertisers due some undesired content in which their products are (were?) being advertised on. (I prefer not to disclose the kind of content).

A business plan is a protocol of intentions. Companies tends to associate with others where their business plan is "compatible". You will not see toy makers advertising on some… "interesting and peculiar" ;-) sites. And you will not see Playboy advertising on CurseForge. And this is not due the "good will" of that site maintainers, but due a clear and enforced policy of content (that are depicted on that business plan).

It's like the saying: "Caesar's wife must not only be honest but must also be seen to be honest". Marketing is hell, one single mishap and your product looses value.

[linuxgurugamer]

I do not understand what we are talking about. Therefor, I am not going to continue this discussion. No offense meant.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by linuxgurugamer

[Lisias]

Given the numerous "forkings" from my argument, I decided to consolidate them in a (hopefully) few words:

It's unlikely that TTI/Squad would ditch CurseForge for officially support SpaceDock due:

1. Lack of a business plan from SpaceDock, where:
   1. Clear rules for Content Creators would define what can and what cannot be published associated with KSP's Intelectual Properties, image, whatever. And so, there're uncertainty about the nature of the content and the acceptability of such content, causing:
      1. Uncertainty for the content publishers about the content "survivability" over the time - the maintainers can decide, under their sole discretion, to delete anything at any time. There're no clear rules, there're no contract between parts.
      2. Therefore, uncertainty for the advertisers about the content in which they advertises would be associated to.
      3. And no, the good will of the current maintainers are not enough.
   2. A clear Revenue Stream, where partners would evaluate the risks on investing on such partnership:
      1. Should I invest my money on this site? Or the other one would add more value to my product over the time?
      2. It will be there in 2 years?
      3. If the site closes and the content is lost, how bad this will look for us?
      4. Will this site accept advertising from companies which product or services are not compatible with our current and future consumer base? Our consumer base would be exposed to such advertisings?

Please note the absence of an item "2". The technical excellence from SpaceDock is good for the users, but the users would not be the ones providing the Revenue. And Funding is not enough - where is said that SpaceDock will not accept donations from Hustler?  

[sumghai]

<<The following is my personal opinion as a mod author, and not an official statement in my capacity as a forums moderator>>

I still use CurseForge to host my mods, primarily because that is the official mod hosting site as designated by SQUAD, and will continue to do so as long as SQUAD maintains their existing agreement with CurseForge. The only other download location I maintain it on GitHub, which doubles as a public project/issue/code tracker and wiki.

As for unofficial mod repositories such as KerbalStuff and SpaceDock, I choose not to host my mods there, as my perception is that they were founded on the principle of "we're not Curse!", and none of the features they offer particularly benefits me. I also prefer to maintain as few download locations as possible, so that I can consolidate sources of feedback to a few key sources.

<<End of personal opinion>>

As for slower updates on CurseForge compared with SpaceDock, this is because all uploaded mods / updates need to be vetted and approved by CurseForge moderators to prevent unscrupulous modders sneaking in malicious content, whereas AFAIK SpaceDock allows modders to upload directly with no moderation.

[Gargamel]

On 10/31/2018 at 6:09 PM, Lisias said:

But without a business plan

I think you are over thinking their intentions.   Maybe they did have grand visions of a diverse mod hosting site at one time, but apparently not any more.   SD, for all practical purposes, seems to be the equivalent of a spare computer running in some guys basement.   Nothing wrong with that, it's a simple site that does a single job very well.    But to say they need a business plan, given their current setup, might be over reaching a bit. 

But your point that a site without a set commercial goal is not an attractive business partner for SQUAD/TTI is very valid.  I just don't think SD has that in mind. 

The players like SD because it does that one job well, with no extra frills.  I can't speak for modders though, but they have voiced their opinions here. 

[Lisias]

7 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I think you are over thinking their intentions.  

Perhaps not their intentions, but some of their user's intentions - see the OP.  

[Benjamin Kerman]

It seems unlikely to me that SQUAD would endorse SpaceDock without ensuring that SpaceDock is never going to do down as long as KSP is around and active (by providing funding and/or computer parts) because if you're going to have a mod hosting site, you're going to have a mod hosting site that is always up and fast, because otherwise it becomes another problem that they have to deal with (people complaining about the hosting site being down or slow and that it then is SQUAD's fault). 

I personally work out of GitHub and another private repo server, making releases there. It serves as an issue tracker and it's easy to use...