Do you get science at each atmospheric altitude level above each biome over Kerbin?

[jpinard]

I read a post saying you could unlock most of the tech tree by just achieving a polar orbit around Kerbin and doing science. But I've achieved polar orbit and I can only do basic science for "being in orbit over Kerbin". No matter what biome I'm over it doesn't make a difference. Is it because I'm at 90,000 meters? Do I need to dip down into the atmosphere for each pass? If so, do I get new sets of science readings for each blue tinged bar in the atmospheric zone?

Thanks for the help!

[Superfluous J]

Science is....

...complicated.

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Science

In short, at low tech levels the only unique science you're going to get in space are low orbit EVA reports.

[MechBFP]

40 minutes ago, jpinard said:

I read a post saying you could unlock most of the tech tree by just achieving a polar orbit around Kerbin and doing science.

Incredibly wrong. Whoever said that was either incredibly misinformed or trolling.

Some experiments will give you different results over different biomes, such as the gravity detector, or EVA reports. However the gravity detector part unlocks much later in the tech tree, so you won’t get there unless you leave Kerbins orbit.

Edited June 28, 2019 by MechBFP

[UmbralRaptor]

It depends on the experiment. eg: Crew reports in near space are global, but EVA reports are per biome. https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Science#Possible_combinations_of_Activity.2C_Situation.2C_and_Biome

[Terwin]

8 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Incredibly wrong. Whoever said that was either incredibly misinformed or trolling.

Some experiments will give you different results over different biomes, such as the gravity detector, or EVA reports. However the gravity detector part unlocks much later in the tech tree, so you won’t get there unless you leave Kerbins orbit.

I am pretty sure that you can unlock all of the technology available in the level 1 science center without leaving the atmosphere. (Finding 'splashed down in the highlands' is a pain however).

If you instead focus that science on getting the other science instruments, I would be surprised if you could not fill the entire tree without antering the Mun, Minmus, or Kerbol SOIs. (might take a lot of time in the science lab to manage it however).

55 minutes ago, jpinard said:

I read a post saying you could unlock most of the tech tree by just achieving a polar orbit around Kerbin and doing science. But I've achieved polar orbit and I can only do basic science for "being in orbit over Kerbin". No matter what biome I'm over it doesn't make a difference. Is it because I'm at 90,000 meters? Do I need to dip down into the atmosphere for each pass? If so, do I get new sets of science readings for each blue tinged bar in the atmospheric zone?

Thanks for the help!

They may have been talking about putting one or more science labs in polar orbit, as each of those labs could give you quite a lot of science.  Even more if you put all of the landed and in-flight science on-board to be loaded into the labs after achieving orbit.  If I remember correctly, labs can give 5x the science an experiment is normally worth, and while a given experiment(like thermostat on launchpad) can only be loaded into a specific lab once, each lab can take advantage of each experiment, and recovering a given experiment does not reduce it's future value in labs.

[jpinard]

15 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Even more if you put all of the landed and in-flight science on-board to be loaded into the labs after achieving orbit. 

How does one do this?

[Terwin]

The hard part is collecting all the science.

After that, you can send a kerbal out to grab a copy from the collection/holding vessel and store it in a container(like a pod or science box, probably something attached to the bottom of a booster and discarded at launch), then just tell the lab or another science storage container to 'collect all' and it should be stored safely until you need it.(but do not convert it into lab science until you reach orbit, as there is a penalty when converting experiments to lab-science when landed on Kerbin)

 

I think I once used a rover to collect science from around the KSC for loading onto a lab I was going to launch, but it turned out not to be worthwhile, as the low orbit EVA and gravioli science is worth a lot more and takes a lot less effort than collecting data from KSC.

[jpinard]

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

The hard part is collecting all the science.

After that, you can send a kerbal out to grab a copy from the collection/holding vessel and store it in a container(like a pod or science box, probably something attached to the bottom of a booster and discarded at launch), then just tell the lab or another science storage container to 'collect all' and it should be stored safely until you need it.(but do not convert it into lab science until you reach orbit, as there is a penalty when converting experiments to lab-science when landed on Kerbin)

 

I think I once used a rover to collect science from around the KSC for loading onto a lab I was going to launch, but it turned out not to be worthwhile, as the low orbit EVA and gravioli science is worth a lot more and takes a lot less effort than collecting data from KSC.

Thanks so much for explaining this.  I would not have figured this out.

[UmbralRaptor]

22 hours ago, Terwin said:

I am pretty sure that you can unlock all of the technology available in the level 1 science center without leaving the atmosphere. (Finding 'splashed down in the highlands' is a pain however).

I suspect that you can if you unlock surface samples, though otherwise is iffy. Also the KSC biomes are annoying to get to until you have wheels unlocked. (granted, there's lots to be gotten by careful use of an RT-5).

 

That typed, I would suggest that @jpinard try grabbing science from high Kerbin orbit (>250 km), and any missing altitudes below it (flying low is <18 km, flying high is 18-70 km). If they have Making history, woomerang, dessert launch site, dessert runway, island runway and the desert biome proper are amazingly easy to get science from. And unless they're doing a challenge of some sort, get science from Mun or Minmus as soon as possible.

[Snark]

Moving to Gameplay Questions.

[jpinard]

21 hours ago, UmbralRaptor said:

If they have Making history, woomerang, dessert launch site, dessert runway, island runway and the desert biome proper are amazingly easy to get science from. And unless they're doing a challenge of some sort, get science from Mun or Minmus as soon as possible.

Is there a map that shows where each of these are?

[UmbralRaptor]

5 hours ago, jpinard said:

Is there a map that shows where each of these are?

Assuming that you have making history installed, and alternate launch sites enabled, mouse under the launch button in the VAB to select woomerang and dessert launch site. Ditto in the SPH to select dessert airfield and island runway. Also shown here: https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Dessert_Launch_Site

Since both dessert sites are in the desert, a modest side hop will let you land there. Think a command pod with all the instruments you have unlocked, a parachute, and an RT-5 with the lowest amount of fuel.

If this isn't an option, or you mean Mun or Minmus, then we'll want to talk about orbital transfers. eg: Do you have patched conics and/or maneuver nodes unlocked?

[Terwin]

 

On 6/28/2019 at 2:44 PM, Terwin said:

I am pretty sure that you can unlock all of the technology available in the level 1 science center without leaving the atmosphere. (Finding 'splashed down in the highlands' is a pain however).

On 6/29/2019 at 12:55 PM, UmbralRaptor said:

I suspect that you can if you unlock surface samples, though otherwise is iffy. Also the KSC biomes are annoying to get to until you have wheels unlocked. (granted, there's lots to be gotten by careful use of an RT-5).

Well, if you are on Easy, you can do it without really leaving the ground(but it may take fast clicking to get the 'while flying' during the short drop/bounce from deploying/undeploying landing legs

https://imgur.com/a/DIRWQ

In 1.0 it looks like I did indeed need to get both space low and space high science(but never achieved orbit nor unlocked surface samples):

https://imgur.com/a/rat3O

But if you allow for part testing contracts, then, in theory you can get unlimited science without even leaving the space center.  

 

[jpinard]

@Terwin @UmbralRaptor

I am playing on Hard difficulty.  With alternate launch sites disabled.

Edited July 1, 2019 by jpinard

[jpinard]

19 hours ago, UmbralRaptor said:

Do you have patched conics and/or maneuver nodes unlocked?

Nope.  Neither.

[Dan Kerman]

There is a thread in the Tutorials section that I used to unlock the entire tree in six missions. Takes time of course but much faster that trying to do it piecemeal in a dozen or so missions.

 

Sci Tree in 6 missions

Edited July 1, 2019 by Dan Kerman

[Terwin]

2 hours ago, jpinard said:

@Terwin @UmbralRaptor

I am playing on Hard difficulty.  With alternate launch sites disabled.

You could still put several science labs in polar orbits and time-warp to science-tree completion, it is just a question of how many it takes. (Don't forget the Gravioli detectors, as those are per-biome and nake a good supplement to the eva reports, while goo and materials can each only provide one 'low in space'(plus a landed, flying low and flying high if you are clever about it))

[jpinard]

2 minutes ago, Terwin said:

(Don't forget the Gravioli detectors, as those are per-biome and nake a good supplement to the eva reports, while goo and materials can each only provide one 'low in space'(plus a landed, flying low and flying high if you are clever about it))

Where is Gravioli detector unlocked?  I can't seem to find it.

[Superfluous J]

4 minutes ago, jpinard said:

Where is Gravioli detector unlocked?  I can't seem to find it.

Its high in the tech tree. Look in the nodes in the lower right. I don't recall for sure but I think it costs 550.

Edited July 1, 2019 by 5thHorseman

[jpinard]

48 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Its high in the tech tree. Look in the nodes in the lower right. I don't recall for sure but I think it costs 550.

OK thanks!  Fount it!  5th node from bottom in the 550 line.

Edited July 1, 2019 by jpinard

[Geschosskopf]

On 6/28/2019 at 1:40 PM, jpinard said:

I read a post saying you could unlock most of the tech tree by just achieving a polar orbit around Kerbin and doing science. But I've achieved polar orbit and I can only do basic science for "being in orbit over Kerbin". No matter what biome I'm over it doesn't make a difference. Is it because I'm at 90,000 meters? Do I need to dip down into the atmosphere for each pass? If so, do I get new sets of science readings for each blue tinged bar in the atmospheric zone?

Thanks for the help!

The post you read is probably old.  There have been numerous changes to how Science! works since it was introduced.

It used to be that all the instruments worked per-biome in low orbit or "in space near".  It also used to be that you could only reset Goo and Science Jrs with an MPL.  But then they made it so any 0-level scientist could do that, too.  At that point, it was indeed possible to get into a polar orbit scoop up scads of Science!  Or you could built a Minmus biome-hopper that could get "in space near" and then landed data from each biome hopped to, essentially doubling your return.  Also, a Kerbal on the ladder of a landed ship counted as "in space near" so could get that EVA report there instead of having to EVA while the ship was landing.

This, apparently, was thought to be an exploit.  So eventually they changed things so that only EVA reports and (I think) Negative Gravioli now work per-biome in low orbit and "in space near".  Everything else (crew report, Goo, Science Jr., thermometer, pressure) only works once per-planet at that level now.  And EVA on the ladder now gives the same report as being on the ground.

So basically, the days of scooping massive Science! returns from low polar orbits are long gone.  At least with stock experiments.  There used to be a mod called DMagic Orbital Science that added a bunch of new experiments, and they all worked per-biome in low orbit.  I don't know if that's still the case or whether that mod even still exists, though.