Couple of concerns

[CyclonicTuna]

So like everyone else on the forum I shot out of my seat with excitement when I saw KSP 2 was announced. The trailer looks very nice, and what I've seen from gameplay so far it looks very promising aswell. 

However after the initial extacy of excitment had passed I did have a couple of concerns for the new game that I wanted to vent here to see what everyone thinks and maybe if some people have the same. 


1. The release timeline. 

In the IGN interview with Nate it was stated that the release for KSP 2 would be sometime in spring 2020. Now that is less than a year away, and although I would be very excited to have it playable that early, I'm also a bit concerned. 

It seems to me that if KSP 2 were to live up to the status of the first game, whilst also expanding on its scope, 8 to 10 months of devlopment time would be to little to achieve that. Now I realise that the developers aren't starting at the same point as Squad did in 2012, but I still think this game needs at least a solid year and a half of development time from where its at right now to be a worthy successor. 

I'm afraid it might dumb down or even cut some of the more advanced features that are in KSP right now, in order to get things like interstellar travel in there on time for release.

Personally I would be happy with a game that is the same size as the original KSP but with enhanced visuals and all the same features on release. And then have it slowly grow overtime like the original game.

2. Multiplayer

I don't want to come across as someone who doubs the ability of the developers at Star Theory. From what I've gathered they are a group of very capable game designers.

However I don't feel like they have a grasp on what makes KSP fun when they mentioned multiplayer. I am personally not sure wether KSP is the kind of game that even needs multiplayer. Not every type of game is improved by having multiplayer in it, and it feels more like a forced feature to boost hype and potential sales of KSP 2.
KSP being the game that focusses more on the methodical, trial and error type of gameplay. That's usually a bit slower and not as well suited to multiple people playing as at once. I fear that it might not work out at all. 

I just don't feel like KSP needs multiplayer. Have a social element to it by all means, but multipalyer itself, I'm not feeling that. 

This concern is reinforced by the fact that it seems like the developers at Star Theory themselves don't seem to have and idea of how they want multiplayer to take shape in KSP 2 either. It is simply mentioned as a feature but there's not info on how its going to work or what we can expect. 

It comes back to the short release schedule aswell. If they are planning to finish this game in 10 months and they have no idea or prototype in place for multiplayer what is this going to mean for the rest of the development? It would be a shame to both have a half finished uninspired multiplayer component and a less than exciting singleplayer component. I'd rather have a solid game that I can play on my own. 


Those are my 2 major concerns I have for KSP 2 right now. I might update my post with more later, but for now those are the only ones that I can think of. 

Again I don't want to come across as negative or pessimistic. I think its fantastic that the KSP franchise has a future, especially since for me the first game had become a bit stale. And I am very excited for this. But I also want to see it succeed as well as the first game, and therefore I wanted to vent these concerns here. 

I'd love to know what you think, if you share some of these concerns or if you have your own. Let me know. Hopefully the dev's will read them. 

[GoldForest]

5 minutes ago, CyclonicTuna said:

So like everyone else on the forum I shot out of my seat with excitement when I saw KSP 2 was announced. The trailer looks very nice, and what I've seen from gameplay so far it looks very promising aswell. 

However after the initial extacy of excitment had passed I did have a couple of concerns for the new game that I wanted to vent here to see what everyone thinks and maybe if some people have the same. 


1. The release timeline. 

In the IGN interview with Nate it was stated that the release for KSP 2 would be sometime in spring 2020. Now that is less than a year away, and although I would be very excited to have it playable that early, I'm also a bit concerned. 

It seems to me that if KSP 2 were to live up to the status of the first game, whilst also expanding on its scope, 8 to 10 months of devlopment time would be to little to achieve that. Now I realise that the developers aren't starting at the same point as Squad did in 2012, but I still think this game needs at least a solid year and a half of development time from where its at right now to be a worthy successor. 

I'm afraid it might dumb down or even cut some of the more advanced features that are in KSP right now, in order to get things like interstellar travel in there on time for release.

Personally I would be happy with a game that is the same size as the original KSP but with enhanced visuals and all the same features on release. And then have it slowly grow overtime like the original game.

2. Multiplayer

I don't want to come across as someone who doubs the ability of the developers at Star Theory. From what I've gathered they are a group of very capable game designers.

However I don't feel like they have a grasp on what makes KSP fun when they mentioned multiplayer. I am personally not sure wether KSP is the kind of game that even needs multiplayer. Not every type of game is improved by having multiplayer in it, and it feels more like a forced feature to boost hype and potential sales of KSP 2.
KSP being the game that focusses more on the methodical, trial and error type of gameplay. That's usually a bit slower and not as well suited to multiple people playing as at once. I fear that it might not work out at all. 

I just don't feel like KSP needs multiplayer. Have a social element to it by all means, but multipalyer itself, I'm not feeling that. 

This concern is reinforced by the fact that it seems like the developers at Star Theory themselves don't seem to have and idea of how they want multiplayer to take shape in KSP 2 either. It is simply mentioned as a feature but there's not info on how its going to work or what we can expect. 

It comes back to the short release schedule aswell. If they are planning to finish this game in 10 months and they have no idea or prototype in place for multiplayer what is this going to mean for the rest of the development? It would be a shame to both have a half finished uninspired multiplayer component and a less than exciting singleplayer component. I'd rather have a solid game that I can play on my own. 


Those are my 2 major concerns I have for KSP 2 right now. I might update my post with more later, but for now those are the only ones that I can think of. 

Again I don't want to come across as negative or pessimistic. I think its fantastic that the KSP franchise has a future, especially since for me the first game had become a bit stale. And I am very excited for this. But I also want to see it succeed as well as the first game, and therefore I wanted to vent these concerns here. 

I'd love to know what you think, if you share some of these concerns or if you have your own. Let me know. Hopefully the dev's will read them. 

The game has been in development for years. Squad managed to hide it away from us since as early as 2018, evident by the steam page activity log, but it can be argued they've been working on it since as early as 2017 or even 2016.

 

As for multiplayer, this is something the community as a whole has wanted for years. And we dont know what Star Theory wants with the multiplayer. They have said literally nothing about it or anything really, they just kept repeating what the announcement said basically.

Edited August 23, 2019 by GoldForest

[CyclonicTuna]

4 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

The game has been in development for years. Squad managed to hide it away from us since as early as 2018, evident by the steam page activity log, but it can be argued they've been working on it since as early as 2017 or even 2016.

If that is really the case though, wouldn't they have a bit more to show for it? And wouldn't they have mentioned it aswell? I mean, we haven't even gotten any real solid gameplay yet. Aside from a few bits of choppy of pre-alpha footage. 

I'm no expert but it seems to me that most games who have 8 to 10 months of development time left would be at least at beta stage and would be getting ready for some heavy q&a testing. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by CyclonicTuna

[GoldForest]

1 minute ago, CyclonicTuna said:

If that is really the case though, wouldn't they have a bit more to show for it? And wouldn't they have mentioned it aswell? I mean, we haven't even gotten any real solid gameplay yet. Aside from a few bits of choppy alpha footage. 

Not really. Like I said, they wanted to keep it a secret and if there's one thing Squad is known for, its secrets. They kept Breaking Ground a secret until a month before launch. And a leak happened months before that, but no one knew it was a leak at the time. 

As for not showing anything, that could be due to wanting to wait for first hand reactions to the actual product and not hype train thoughts.

Dont worry, Squad trust Star Theory and so should we. 

[CyclonicTuna]

1 minute ago, GoldForest said:

Not really. Like I said, they wanted to keep it a secret and if there's one thing Squad is known for, its secrets. They kept Breaking Ground a secret until a month before launch. And a leak happened months before that, but no one knew it was a leak at the time. 

As for not showing anything, that could be due to wanting to wait for first hand reactions to the actual product and not hype train thoughts.

Dont worry, Squad trust Star Theory and so should we. 

I don't think you should ever blindly trust anyone, not even a devloper with a good track record, but whatever. I hope you're right. I just feel like if they are really aiming for spring 2020 they would have something that is beyond a pre-alpha stage. 

[GoldForest]

2 minutes ago, CyclonicTuna said:

I don't think you should ever blindly trust anyone, not even a devloper with a good track record, but whatever. I hope you're right. I just feel like if they are really aiming for spring 2020 they would have something that is beyond a pre-alpha stage. 

Did you ever think that maybe they purposely used pre-alpha footage to trick the fan base?

Also, I'm not saying trust them blindly, have skepticism of course, but trust that the game is in good hands and hope that trust is not misplaced. You can trust someone and still have worries or hesitations. 

[CyclonicTuna]

5 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Did you ever think that maybe they purposely used pre-alpha footage to trick the fan base?

No I don't, because I think that would be very foolish. And the developers don't come across as fools to me. You want to show what you have created most recently, and you want to let people know what you can create as developer. 

That is how you create hype for your game and give people something to look forward to.

And unless in 2 or 3 months time they can show us new footage which is a vast improvement over what we have gotten to see now. I don't think you should assume they have. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by CyclonicTuna

[GoldForest]

6 minutes ago, CyclonicTuna said:

No I don't, because I think that would be very foolish. And the developers don't come across as fools to me. You want to show what you have created most recently, and you want to let people know what you can create as developer. 

That is how you create hype for your game and give people something to look forward to. And unless in 2 or 3 months time they can show us new footage which is a vast improvement over what we have gotten to see now. I don't think you should assume they have. 

Well they'll probably do it in Squad fashion. Wait a month or two before release then flood us with info on a day by day or week by week process. 

Or, maybe Star Theory is making a KSP2 only forums, which we'll be able to access in a month or two after it's setup. 

Another possibility is that Squad is working on overhauling this current forum to accompany KSP2 so KSP2 has it's own full forum sections. 

And it wouldn't be foolish. Lots of dev's keep activity on the web low until they are ready for a major information dump, when they have something to show. We'll just have to wait and see.

Edited August 23, 2019 by GoldForest

[Alguien]

31 minutes ago, CyclonicTuna said:

and it feels more like a forced feature to boost hype and potential sales of KSP 2.

Or could be one of the reasons we are getting KSP2 is because building a code that allows multiplayer is much more effective that patch it into a decade old game like the original squad team wanted to do.
Besides, is called the space race for a reason.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, CyclonicTuna said:

I just don't feel like KSP needs multiplayer.

I often start a new save with my friends doing the same and we share and discuss our missions and design a lot, being able to do so in the same save in multiplayer would be awesome, I'm totally ready to rent a server as soon as the game drops.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, CyclonicTuna said:

1. The release timeline. 

In the IGN interview with Nate it was stated that the release for KSP 2 would be sometime in spring 2020. Now that is less than a year away, and although I would be very excited to have it playable that early, I'm also a bit concerned. 

It seems to me that if KSP 2 were to live up to the status of the first game, whilst also expanding on its scope, 8 to 10 months of devlopment time would be to little to achieve that. Now I realise that the developers aren't starting at the same point as Squad did in 2012, but I still think this game needs at least a solid year and a half of development time from where its at right now to be a worthy successor. 

I'm afraid it might dumb down or even cut some of the more advanced features that are in KSP right now, in order to get things like interstellar travel in there on time for release.

Personally I would be happy with a game that is the same size as the original KSP but with enhanced visuals and all the same features on release. And then have it slowly grow overtime like the original game.

I agree. I initially though on Xmas 2020 not only for the season sales, but also due the work I expect to be done on ironing out bugs, glitches and mishaps that every big project as this one are prone to.

On the other hand… And I'm guessing here, perhaps they want to iron out the problems with the users so in the hot sales season, they have already a solid product to sell. Perhaps they want to easy a bit the burden of launching a new, unproved product on the Xmas seasons (as it happened with KSP 1.6).

In a way or another, KSP has a tradition of incremental features deliverables. As long they don't go No Man's Sky style, I think they will be good.

 

1 hour ago, CyclonicTuna said:

2. Multiplayer

I don't want to come across as someone who doubs the ability of the developers at Star Theory. From what I've gathered they are a group of very capable game designers.

However I don't feel like they have a grasp on what makes KSP fun when they mentioned multiplayer. I am personally not sure wether KSP is the kind of game that even needs multiplayer. Not every type of game is improved by having multiplayer in it, and it feels more like a forced feature to boost hype and potential sales of KSP 2.
KSP being the game that focusses more on the methodical, trial and error type of gameplay. That's usually a bit slower and not as well suited to multiple people playing as at once. I fear that it might not work out at all. 

I just don't feel like KSP needs multiplayer. Have a social element to it by all means, but multipalyer itself, I'm not feeling that. 

This concern is reinforced by the fact that it seems like the developers at Star Theory themselves don't seem to have and idea of how they want multiplayer to take shape in KSP 2 either. It is simply mentioned as a feature but there's not info on how its going to work or what we can expect. 

It comes back to the short release schedule aswell. If they are planning to finish this game in 10 months and they have no idea or prototype in place for multiplayer what is this going to mean for the rest of the development? It would be a shame to both have a half finished uninspired multiplayer component and a less than exciting singleplayer component. I'd rather have a solid game that I can play on my own. 

Designing a game, and implementing that game, are two tasks that usually are better tacked down by different people with different expertises. But since the best engineers never goes to the Space, I will not dare to even cogitate that we saw all the development team on that Video. So my speculations on the matter ends here.

I think, and frankly I don't know if I want to be wrong or right on this, that KSP2 will be a somewhat different game than KSP1 - besides sharing a common conceptual base. It will not, definitively, be the same game and that's already a fact. Colonies will grow by reaching milestones, not by management over time: you do something remarkable, Kerbal Babies are born. I don't exactly like this approach, I'm more an "design and manage" kind of people. But there's always the Sandbox - let's see how they managed (if available) a Sandbox game option.

I don't really mind KSP2 having a multiplayer option. I agree with you, and I will probably not use it all all after one or two sessions. I'm a bit concerned about the tight time window they have to do all of that, and also a multiplayer mode - but as I already said, KSP has a long tradition of progressive deliverables - and perhaps these features will be added in successive releases. Perhaps a "final product" would be ready only for Xmas after all.

I also agree with you on the user's expectations concerns. They do that progressive release of features the wrong way, they could get somewhat burn when the Big Season comes. But this is a risk on both ways, so perhaps this early access approach ends up being the best (or lesser worst?) option.

 

1 hour ago, CyclonicTuna said:

Those are my 2 major concerns I have for KSP 2 right now. I might update my post with more later, but for now those are the only ones that I can think of. 

I have a full dollar of concerns  . Believe me, you are in better shape than me!  

[Xavven]

I'm playing KSP 1 multiplayer right now (Luna Multiplayer mod) with two friends and it's great fun! Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

Everyone has a right to speculate, but what makes you think you can predict Star Theory's release schedule better than they can? You don't know how long they've been working on it, where they are today, or their roadmap. Nor do you know how much code they can borrow from KSP 1, nor how experienced their team is.

One thing I do know is that release schedules get pushed back often, and sometimes the producer forces a release before the game is ready and it launches as a buggy mess or incomplete. Another thing that''s extremely common is the community being completely wrong with their predictions of the game.

 

[GoldForest]

10 minutes ago, Xavven said:

I'm playing KSP 1 multiplayer right now (Luna Multiplayer mod) with two friends and it's great fun! Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

Everyone has a right to speculate, but what makes you think you can predict Star Theory's release schedule better than they can? You don't know how long they've been working on it, where they are today, or their roadmap. Nor do you know how much code they can borrow from KSP 1, nor how experienced their team is.

One thing I do know is that release schedules get pushed back often, and sometimes the producer forces a release before the game is ready and it launches as a buggy mess or incomplete. Another thing that''s extremely common is the community being completely wrong with their predictions of the game.

 

They aren't borrowing any code for KSP 1, they are rebuilding KSP from the ground up... I just realized that's a pun... well played Star Theory... 

Anyway, also, in one of the interviews or articles, the reporter said they plan to release it in March of 2020, before Take Two's fiscal year is up, so they do have a deadline to make the corporate overlords happy... I just hope it doesn't effect development. But since they've been working on it for years (At least 2 that we know of), I'm confident it will work out. 

[CyclonicTuna]

14 minutes ago, Xavven said:

Everyone has a right to speculate, but what makes you think you can predict Star Theory's release schedule better than they can? You don't know how long they've been working on it, where they are today, or their roadmap. Nor do you know how much code they can borrow from KSP 1, nor how experienced their team is.

Well I don't. Aside from the fact that I have worked on some games myself, be it no very succesfull ones. But if they are on top of things I just wish they'd show us. 

[Xavven]

1 minute ago, GoldForest said:

They aren't borrowing any code for KSP 1, they are rebuilding KSP from the ground up...

Even so, KSP 1 had coding problems to solve. KSP 2 will have those same problems. Even if you don't copy the code line for line, you can still copy the solution. I code at work and constantly borrow from my previous projects.

[CyclonicTuna]

3 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

 But since they've been working on it for years (At least 2 that we know of), I'm confident it will work out. 

Do you have a source for that info?

[GoldForest]

1 minute ago, CyclonicTuna said:

Well I don't. Aside from the fact that I have worked on some games myself, be it no very succesfull ones. But if they are on top of things I just wish they'd show us. 

They will when they have something they can show. 

1 minute ago, Xavven said:

Even so, KSP 1 had coding problems to solve. KSP 2 will have those same problems. Even if you don't copy the code line for line, you can still copy the solution. I code at work and constantly borrow from my previous projects.

True, but KSP was coded poorly from the start from what I hear, KSP 2 is coded to work from the start, and it's an actual game company with experience under the belt. 

1 minute ago, CyclonicTuna said:

Do you have a source for that info?

https://steamdb.info/app/954850/history/

Scroll all the way down to the bottom. And I was wrong, it's been a year since the steam page has been up. So at least a year of development has gone into the game. Still, that's only the Steam page. They've obviously been working on it longer than that. 

[SkyKaptn]

Dont't panic

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Xavven said:

Everyone has a right to speculate, but what makes you think you can predict Star Theory's release schedule better than they can? You don't know how long they've been working on it, where they are today, or their roadmap. Nor do you know how much code they can borrow from KSP 1, nor how experienced their team is.

What makes you think I can't? What makes you think I don't know about software projects? What makes you think I don't know how many time are needed to such project, or that I don't know since then they are working on it? Star.Theory are not the first Company to be built from scratch to a new big project. You see, the Game Industry has some decades by now.

There're a whole World that you don't know out there - a World of experienced people able to do reasonable good guess based (or biased) on knowledge gathered over the years. This doesn't makes such persons automatically able to correctly predict the what's happening - but it helps to have a reasonable idea, and once you learn that you don't need to be right all the time, but it's good enough to be not too wrong, you will learn that such speculations are not only an exercise of the intellect - but actually fun!

[EchoLima]

56 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

the reporter said they plan to release it in March of 2020, before Take Two's fiscal year is up, so they do have a deadline to make the corporate overlords happy

That can't be a good thing. Deadlines should be based on when development is expected to be complete, not on the whims of other people. And once KSP2 is released there will be things can can't be change even if they're in an unfinished state, unless Star Theory is comfortable with save-breaking updates.

[Xavven]

1 minute ago, Lisias said:

What makes you think I can't? What makes you think I don't know about software projects? What makes you think I don't know how many time are needed to such project, or that I don't know since then they are working on it? Star.Theory are not the first Company to be built from scratch to a new big project. You see, the Game Industry has some decades by now.

There're a whole World that you don't know out there - a World of experienced people able to do reasonable good guess based (or biased) on knowledge gathered over the years. This doesn't makes such persons automatically able to correctly predict the what's happening - but it helps to have a reasonable idea, and once you learn that you don't need to be right all the time, but it's good enough to be not too wrong, you will learn that such speculations are not only an exercise of the intellect - but actually fun!

I don't doubt that some people can make educated guesses. My point is that it's still just speculation. What makes me think your guess will probably not be very accurate is that *you aren't a member of that dev team*.

[Klapaucius]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

I think, and frankly I don't know if I want to be wrong or right on this, that KSP2 will be a somewhat different game than KSP1 - besides sharing a common conceptual base. It will not, definitively, be the same game and that's already a fact. Colonies will grow by reaching milestones, not by management over time: you do something remarkable, Kerbal Babies are born. I don't exactly like this approach, I'm more an "design and manage" kind of people. But there's always the Sandbox - let's see how they managed (if available) a Sandbox game option.

I think you are correct and I have the same feelings. But, having them work differently also means a continued life for KSP1, and I think that is a good thing.  

I like the milestone approach. The thinking behind it is to prevent gaming the system. They go into that a bit in this article (in case you have not already seen it) https://www.pcgamer.com/kerbal-space-program-2-dev-reveals-how-baby-kerbals-are-made/  And it makes some sense. Societies don't just thrive due to the passage of time. Certain events can lead to rapid growth or rapid decline or stagnation. 

To me, the possible bigger issue is one of mission creep: will a science and physics based simulator be able to simultaneously be a social simulator? How far does it go before it becomes SimCity or Civilization in space?  Is that an issue or can the developers manage well these different areas and still keep the game feeling like a cohesive whole?

 

 

 

[Lisias]

Just now, Xavven said:

I don't doubt that some people can make educated guesses. My point is that it's still just speculation. What makes me think your guess will probably not be very accurate is that *you aren't a member of that dev team*.

Being the only reason I could be talking about, as that guys are under a Non Disclosure Agreement - so they will never tell us.

"I don't need to outrun the bear. I just need to outrun you."   I don't mean to be accurate. I mean to be reasonably not too wrong.

[Xavven]

When someone posts their prediction that KSP 2 will be a massive failure and they have very little factual info to back up that prediction, I'm skeptical. That's the point I've been trying to make since my first post. I don't care if that person is a career game dev or not, I'm not taking their word as gospel. The answer is "we don't know how good KSP 2 will be until we play it."

[CyclonicTuna]

Please keep it civil guys. I don't want this thread shut down immediately. I was just hoping to get some perspective on my thoughts. I got them, most people seem to be pretty optimistic about KSP 2 so far. So am I, I just had some concerns I wanted to share. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by CyclonicTuna