Creating Bases

[Popestar]

Are there any tutorials out here somewhere that detail how to send stuff to the Mun and build bases with it?  I'm having a rather difficult time grasping how to not only get stuff to the Mun, but how to actually arrange it once it's there.  I searched the Tutorials section, but I couldn't find anything.  If someone's got a link, I'll be most appreciative!

[bewing]

What kind of base? Most bases are just a bunch of rovers docked together.

 

[Popestar]

8 minutes ago, bewing said:

What kind of base? Most bases are just a bunch of rovers docked together.

 

Well, any kind of base.  How do you get the rovers to the Mun, really?  Is there any tutorial about building rovers and using them to create a base?  What about all those screen shots in the "What did you do in KSP" thread that show bases with mining equipment, or crew quarters?

[steuben]

Quick answer: You strap them to the top of a rocket and fly them there. And if they don't make it, add more boosters.

The wiki has a tutorial:

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Tutorial:Building_a_Lunar_base

Though I wouldn't recommend going with trying to keep things looking like real life equipment until you can do it. 

[Caerfinon]

An easy way is too use a mod like;

It has;

• specialized parts to create rocket payloads that can carry base parts to orbit and beyond.
• specialized horizontal landing engines to get parts down on the ground.
• A system of landing legs and detachable wheels to allow you to piece together various parts of your base.

[Popestar]

3 hours ago, steuben said:

Quick answer: You strap them to the top of a rocket and fly them there. And if they don't make it, add more boosters.

The wiki has a tutorial:

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Tutorial:Building_a_Lunar_base

Though I wouldn't recommend going with trying to keep things looking like real life equipment until you can do it. 

So, I looked at the wiki, and I realize I'm trying to jump into this in the middle.  I need to, at a minimum, scan the Mun for ore first, and then build a ship to haul payload.

So where do I find tutorials on those?

[steuben]

You only need to scan if you want to get ore and/or fuel quickly. If you just want to plop down a base you can skip that step.

But rough tutorial can be found here: 

 

[FleshJeb]

6 hours ago, Popestar said:

How do you get the rovers to the Mun, really?

There are a number of ways to do it, but I tend to rely on tail-sitters, as they can be easily scaled up to any size rover (craft file at end of spoiler).

• Build rover in SPH.
• Leave back end free.
• Attach docking port or decoupler to the rear.
• Build landing tanks and engine.
• The COM of the rover is likely to be off-center, so I offset the landing section so the thrust lines up with the COM of the rover. (You can see the slight offset in image 2)
• Decoupler.
• Build a fairing and normal rocket underneath.
• EDIT: Fly and land like normal rocket, then tip over onto wheels.

In this case, the landing stage is also doubling as the transfer stage from Low Kerbin Orbit.

Always build your rovers in the SPH. If you want to build your rocket and launch from the VAB, use the re-root tool to make the back end of the rover the root, and drag it into the sub-assembly thingy. Then you can attach it to a rocket started in the VAB.

Personally, I build everything in the SPH (superior camera and editing ability), rotate it up vertically, and launch from the runway.

Spoiler

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-qhpYl6AQEKDbYaXgCJnY9wXC1yMeKHw/view?usp=sharing

Example of a larger ISRU rover for Minmus:

Spoiler

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by FleshJeb

[Popestar]

@FleshJeb

Great information...that I cannot digest appropriately.  I get the concept, but I am the kind of person that, when I ask for a tutorial, it's because I can't figure it out on my own.  I have to see it step-by-step so I can understand not just what is happening, but both how and why.  Telling me to build a rover in the SPH doesn't tell me HOW to build one.  It also doesn't tell me how to use the subassembly thing, or how to get it from the SPH to the VAB, or any of that.  I honestly need the details.

I know that a lot of people here are capable of figuring it out on their own.  I'm just one of those people that need literal examples so I can learn and get it stored into my own memory.

[bewing]

A rover is a rocket with wheels attached to the sides. That's all you need. Some wheels don't attach in the right direction, and you need to rotate them before they will work.

Do you know how to use the "reroot" tool? Have you ever used the "Merge" function when opening a craft file?

To turn a craft into a subassembly, open the "advanced" editing menu in the SPH or VAB (do you know how to do that?), then click the "subassembly" tab, then drag and drop your craft onto the subassembly icon.

 

[Popestar]

12 minutes ago, bewing said:

A rover is a rocket with wheels attached to the sides. That's all you need. Some wheels don't attach in the right direction, and you need to rotate them before they will work.

Do you know how to use the "reroot" tool? Have you ever used the "Merge" function when opening a craft file?

To turn a craft into a subassembly, open the "advanced" editing menu in the SPH or VAB (do you know how to do that?), then click the "subassembly" tab, then drag and drop your craft onto the subassembly icon.

 

That's kind of why I stated that I needed a step by step; I'm not familiar with that stuff.  I mean, I know what a rover is.  What I dont knowbis how to construct one in KSP.  Hence, the ask for an in depth tutorial.

[FleshJeb]

@Popestar I was unsure of your level of expertise, so I limited my scope to a portion of your question--A robust and versatile construction technique for mounting rovers on rockets.

I checked out your profile, and it looks like you've got basic rocket construction and navigation solved. ISRU is the most complex system in the game, so I recommend that you practice with just getting detachable payloads to other bodies.

@Echo__3shows how to build a basic rover here and get it to the Mun, along with some helpful discussion:

 

Ignore the subassembly feature for now. You can switch which editor you're in with the blue plane icon button to the left of the craft name. Echo uses it at around 0:55 and 5:25 in the video.

Another one below.

Spoiler

 

The key construction difference between rockets and rovers (and planes) , is that the wheels need to be attached in Mirror symmetry mode as opposed to the usual Radial. Otherwise one of the wheels comes out upside-down. You can toggle Mirror/Radial in either the SPH or VAB with R.

Rove wheels tend to eat up a lot of electricity, so you'll want to bring along more solar panel and batteries.

Alternately, you can begin with building an ore scanning satellite, and this gives a good overview, if you haven't seen it already:

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Resource_scanner

We can discuss further, just ping or quote me.

[bewing]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

That's kind of why I stated that I needed a step by step; I'm not familiar with that stuff.  I mean, I know what a rover is.  What I dont knowbis how to construct one in KSP.  Hence, the ask for an in depth tutorial.

Yeah, but the problem is that every step requires substeps, and an even more basic set of knowledge. And to give you a "tutorial", we need to know just how detailed we have to be with "which button do you click next."

You seem to know how to build a rocket. That should tell you exactly how to build a rocket in the SPH. That includes knowledge about how to stick parts on the side of your rocket. Wheels are parts. Stick 4 of them on the sides of your rocket in the SPH. Now you have a rover. Now you know how to build a rover. Have you tried doing even that much?

 

[king of nowhere]

11 hours ago, Popestar said:

Well, any kind of base.  How do you get the rovers to the Mun, really?

no different than how you get anything else. basically, strap some wheels on your lander and you have a rover. or, rather, build your space station module, attach a rocket to it (possibly in a sky crane fashion if you want to get rid of it later) and some wheels, and land it on the mun just like a regular lander.

[Popestar]

So, I did a bit of reading up on this topic, hitting the wiki and posts here, as well as watching a few videos.  And I've realized that some of this is beyond the capabilities of my current career; I don't have anything unlocked on Tier 7 yet, which means building a base is pointless as I have no way to drill for or refine (if that's a thing) ore for fuel anyhow.  I'm honestly trying to fly before I even learn how to crawl (if you take the analogy here).

I also realized that I'm thinking about how to pull this off without understanding that I don't have to bring every satellite or rover back to Kerbin immediately.  In fact, if I transmit the data - which I don't want to do due to the loss of Science Points - I don't have to bring the rover home at all.  And I have to get beyond that line of thought before I undertake this.

 

I've got thoughts on how to build a rover, and how to attach it to a rocket, but my mind is having an issue with picturing landing it on a body and then getting it on its wheels.  I keep seeing a vehicle standing straight up and down, wheels pointing outward, fuel tank and engine with landing gear below the rear bumper holding it in an upright position.  You undock, and the thing then...crashes to the ground?  This is the problem I have with this game in understanding payload.  I guess using a space plane to land parallel is the best answer here...but I don't see anything to create cargo bays like you'd see on the space shuttle?  Or a rear hatch to drive a rover out of like you see with massive cargo planes?

[Jestersage]

Also, all these are talking without regards for Breaking ground DLC. If you do, you can build some cranes and then stack them, join by one of the many docking ports.

Also, "Base" in this game doesn't imply refinery. For all the game care, a MPL-Lab, with some electricity generator, such that it generate additional science, is sufficent for either the game or players (like me) to consider it . (Read: https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Mobile_Processing_Lab_MPL-LG-2) Basically, there is a 10% bonus when the lab is on a surface, 25% bonus for processing experiments in the same SOI that they were taken,

TBF, even just having the hitchhiker can to store all the stuff (and Kerbals) is enough to be consider as a Base.

So the question is: Why do you want a base? Then build from there.

Aside form tutorials, feel free to explore KerbalX.com to see what kind of base is available. Some can be as simple as lab on a landing stage. Other is a mobile base with everything. Another is just a for looks city built of many Hitchhiker can. Then of course we have numerous replicas of the planned lunar base (so those are likely to be lab based)

Quote

I've got thoughts on how to build a rover, and how to attach it to a rocket, but my mind is having an issue with picturing landing it on a body and then getting it on its wheels.  I keep seeing a vehicle standing straight up and down, wheels pointing outward, fuel tank and engine with landing gear below the rear bumper holding it in an upright position.  You undock, and the thing then...crashes to the ground?  This is the problem I have with this game in understanding payload.  I guess using a space plane to land parallel is the best answer here...but I don't see anything to create cargo bays like you'd see on the space shuttle?  Or a rear hatch to drive a rover out of like you see with massive cargo planes?

There is. In Vanilla game, that will be the Mk3 Cargo Bays, Mk3 cargo ramp; They are stored in "Payload" section. They are also much higher tech in career.

And as I mentioned, there are hungers, rotors etc from Breaking Ground DLC. For Example, my Apollo clone use a unfold and drop for the Lunar rover, while my Chang'e 3 Clone use an elevator-ramp mechanis,

My recomendation is to play some Sandbox to familarize yourself with the game

Edited January 3, 2021 by Jestersage

[Popestar]

4 hours ago, Jestersage said:

So the question is: Why do you want a base? Then build from there.

Well,  mining ore is the start.  Gotta get the tech first, and then figure out how to build.  Again, the vertical build is throwing me off.

[Jestersage]

3 minutes ago, Popestar said:

Well,  mining ore is the start.  Gotta get the tech first, and then figure out how to build.  Again, the vertical build is throwing me off.

I see. The reason I asked is whether you want to mine ore because the tutorial start with that (it's just a suggestion, not the only reason to build a base), or because you really want a refinery.

As stated previously, thanks to how the MPL Lab works, Any Lunar science points can be boosted by having a lab on the surface, and thus most of the Munar labs are lab focused

If you really want to look at how ISRU/Refinery is delivered, you can look at Raptor9's IV-1B, or (self-plugged) my MEK. Both are non modular, and thus uses a straightly lander designs.

Alternatively, if you are fine with just a lab or crew cab, you can look at Raptor9's LV-1U/1H (Apollo based) and LV-3B  (Constellation based) 

[king of nowhere]

On 1/1/2021 at 4:47 PM, Popestar said:

I've got thoughts on how to build a rover, and how to attach it to a rocket, but my mind is having an issue with picturing landing it on a body and then getting it on its wheels.  I keep seeing a vehicle standing straight up and down, wheels pointing outward, fuel tank and engine with landing gear below the rear bumper holding it in an upright position.  You undock, and the thing then...crashes to the ground?  This is the problem I have with this game in understanding payload.  I guess using a space plane to land parallel is the best answer here...but I don't see anything to create cargo bays like you'd see on the space shuttle?  Or a rear hatch to drive a rover out of like you see with massive cargo planes?

a spaceplane won't work without atmosphere, so don't try one of those on mun

To show how to solve the verticailty problem, I will shamelessly plug some of my designs for how to do those things. first, this is a very simple rover

do notice that it has a terrier on the bottom. basically, this is a lander with wheels in place of landing legs. this little thing doesn't look like much, but it can land and take off from duna

this is a more elaborate rover. it also lands and take off on its own power; do notice the rockets attached to hinges to point in several directions, i don't recommend that specific design unless you have good reasons for it though.

 

finally, those are proof of concept for a modular duna base. Do notice the rocket placement; in this case the rocket is indeed at the bottom, but the wheels are sturdy enough that you can land with the rear, then fall on the ground the last few meters without breaking anything. then the engine is jettisoned.

see how the modules can then be moved around (something necessary, very few people have the precision required to land the modules exactly where they need to be) and used to assemble the base. To deal with the inevitable small differences in docking port height, i finely tuned the spring values on the suspensions.

oh, in case you are wondering how to attach things laterally, the spaceplane hangar uses a lateral simmetry and it is more suited to make rovers. in general i switch from one to the other depending on where i need to attach the next piece

Quote

I also realized that I'm thinking about how to pull this off without understanding that I don't have to bring every satellite or rover back to Kerbin immediately.  In fact, if I transmit the data - which I don't want to do due to the loss of Science Points - I don't have to bring the rover home at all.  And I have to get beyond that line of thought before I undertake this.

You can also make a very small rocket with a sample container and send it back while the rover stays. With a sample container, a hecs probe core, a oscarB tank, and a couple ant engines, you can make a vehicle that's perfectly capable of bringing back science from the mun or minmus. you don't even need parachutes, you rocket brake and it saves some weight on a thing that small.

Edited January 3, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Serenity]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

a spaceplane won't work without atmosphere, so don't try one of those on mun

Your post is great and you have many cool ideas/help but spaceplanes can work in every planet.

If it has fuel ofcourse, it can easily land on Mun or any other low gravity planet, you just slow down like a rocket and at the last moment you do a nice SpaceX flip and there you go.

Launching it might be a bit tricky but i Mun and the other planets have some nice ramps.

[king of nowhere]

11 minutes ago, Boyster said:

Your post is great and you have many cool ideas/help but spaceplanes can work in every planet.

If it has fuel ofcourse, it can easily land on Mun or any other low gravity planet, you just slow down like a rocket and at the last moment you do a nice SpaceX flip and there you go.

Launching it might be a bit tricky but i Mun and the other planets have some nice ramps.

yeah, ok, but then it's no longer being used as a spaceplane. you get no advantage over a regular rocket, and a lot of useless mass

[paul_c]

It depends what you define as a "spaceplane" - does it need to land/take off horizontally? I think KSP defines it as "plane" if it has the plane cockpit.

I tried a few different horizontal landers, the problem for me was the control origin - I never did quite suss out how to make the controls operate the right way round. So instead I went down the path of fairly wide vertical landing. I've also done the "land vertical, then tip over" to get a horizontal thing onto the surface of Mun/Minmus. Minmus is easy. Mun, the landings are a bit more random and/or fuel sensitive, also Mun has no flat areas (well it does, but I've not consistently found a flat landing) so what I've tended to do on the Mun is get down to about 10m then re-orient to "fall over" on the upslope, if/when it lands/crashes.

Getting back to vertical for take off is not too  hard on Minmus. On Mun, and for heavier Minmus stuff, I've used 1 or 2 small engines specifically for this purpose. With skill I can get it vertical and stable. But sometimes its a case of activating/deactivating engines to rise it up then take off immediately. All fun stuff.

[Popestar]

@FleshJeb

I never thanked you for the videos.  I watched them, and I think I understand what is happening.  Unfortunately, as is the case with every video tutorial here, they are all time-warped, and they don't really dive into the HOW to do something.  I cannot stress enough that I need the HOW.  I need something that lays out what is happening step by step to build, launch, and land a rover.  I think I've got the general idea from the Mun video you posted; build a simple rover inside a service bay, and then land that service bay on the Mun.  I just wish that the video was slowed down and that Echo would walk through what parts he used.  Guess I'll just play around and see what I can see.