Show and Tell - Procedural Radiators

[t_v]

13 minutes ago, TLTay said:

The new VAB looks so much less claustrophobic and depressing. Excellent choice with the windows. Is that a new space skybox? Looks awesome!

I think the VAB is going to be upgradeable similar to the first game, which might mean that multiple iterations of the VAB could be in the final game, just at different levels of advancement. This VAB definitely looks enormous compared to KSP1 and others we have seen in other clips, so it could be one of the later-game VABs. 

[MatterBeam]

This makes me really happy.

[Defenestrator47]

10 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

That's our new VAB music, courtesy of Howard Mostrom. It makes you 28 percent more creative.

For me it's more about the ability to customize shapes without glueing a bunch of awkward shapes together to get an approximate result.  I'd like to see curved edges, circular, angular, and rectangular.  Like a big unfolding hexagonal array, or triangles, or any other 'edge to edge' repeating pattern.  Having one BIG solar panel, that is also customizable.  We want MOAR CUSTOMIZE.  Pleasepleaseplease and thanks.

[darthgently]

10 hours ago, daninplainsight said:

So there probably isn't the same design need to create procedural solar panels as there is to create procedural radiators, since you'll need bigger and bigger radiators as the game progresses, but you're likely not as likely to use solar power beyond Duna, and certainly not on interstellar journeys. Some kind of nuclear power is much more lik

I think solar has a connotation that "it just makes sense in space".  But it doesn't always make sense as you well noted.  If you are hanging around the inner planets solar makes sense.  

Digression Alert

It is a similar misconception some people have about the real world requirement for radiation shielding.  We've gotten so used to hanging out inside the protection of the Earth's protective magnetosphere that there is a lot of popular under-appreciation of the problem.  And once out of the heliosphere it just gets worse I would think if only because journeys to another star will spend far more time en route and the heliosphere does offer quite a bit of shielding from radiation from galactic space.  Anyway, I know there is canon that Kerbals are immune to radiation issues, but I'd like to see at least a token nod to shielding for the interstellar craft if not intrasystem craft

The modeled shape of the heliosphere for RSS  (not much of a "sphere")

Edited March 26, 2022 by darthgently

[SOXBLOX]

Glorious! I love procedural parts sooooo much! Can't wait to play this game!

[Nertea]

This video is a great example of the how the whole content team works together to bring things to life for KSP 2!

[The Aziz]

7 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Got a screencap of the VAB UI and labelled it.
I'm not sure if things have changed since we last saw the UI, so it was easier to just relabel the UI we saw in this video.

Let me know what's new compared to before.

https://imgur.com/a/WgBcM8g

We've seen like three different versions of VAB UI, different icons, different arrangement, and it's still unclear if one of them will be in the game.

[Bej Kerman]

10 hours ago, Defenestrator47 said:

20 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

That's our new VAB music, courtesy of Howard Mostrom. It makes you 28 percent more creative.

For me it's more about the ability to customize shapes without glueing a bunch of awkward shapes together to get an approximate result.  I'd like to see curved edges, circular, angular, and rectangular.  Like a big unfolding hexagonal array, or triangles, or any other 'edge to edge' repeating pattern.  Having one BIG solar panel, that is also customizable.  We want MOAR CUSTOMIZE.  Pleasepleaseplease and thanks.

Hear hear; it's hardly about "big, interestingly shaped solar panels". It's about making construction easier and more versatile. I also don't think KSP 2 needs to fall into the same trap of KSP 1 of overcomplicating the parts menu. We've simplified wings, we've simplified radiators, but we've not yet simplified panels. We don't want panels to stick out like a sore thumb as a much less versatile part, do we? It'd be the KSP 2 equivalent of (or similar to) a rocket and tank having variants that let you match the colours, only for the nosecone to not have any variants. In a similar manner It'd certainly be jarring to be able to easily create new wings and radiators, only to have to manually string together solar panels to get the energy output you need to begin focusing on later game technologies.

[t_v]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

In a similar manner It'd certainly be jarring to be able to easily create new wings and radiators, only to have to manually string together solar panels to get the energy output you need to begin focusing on later game technologies.

So, remember that power solutions will go from solar to other technologies in the later game, from fission to fusion to maybe even annihilation power. Solar panels of interesting shapes are only for the purpose of aesthetics and ease of use (not saying that is unimportant) but radiators also need to be much more scalable for gameplay reasons as you go into the later game. Personally I would appreciate custom sizes of things like structural trusses and panels, as well as solar panels and adapters, but to be fair, those things are not necessary for enjoyment upon release like giant radiators are. a Customization Update would be a welcome one down the line though. 

[Pthigrivi]

16 hours ago, darthgently said:

They should rename it the heliocroissant.

Some nice things I noticed rewatching: We all love Chris's work but dang nice job Jonathan on the modeling. That subtle red glow is beautiful:


So this is probably a simplified vessel just to show off the panels but what do we think all the tanks behind the two hab modules are? Supplies? Hauled resources? 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[TLTay]

Everyone wants more, but I'd rather not have release pushed back for completely unnecessary (but neat) procedural solar that will provide insufficient power for late game purposes anyway. The point is, the existing panels are plenty for right up to the point where solar just isn't enough. I'm fine waiting for a dlc for procedural solar. Lots of work for purely cosmetic reasons.

[poopslayer78]

12 hours ago, darthgently said:

I'd like to see at least a token nod to shielding for the interstellar craft if not intrasystem craft

This is speculative but if you examine the VAB interface there's a button for what could be "radiation effects" next to other buttons for the usual mass/lift/thrust indicators.  I could see this being a life-support related constraint as you mentioned or a building constraint.

Note: screenshots collapsible to reduce clutter, they aren't really spoilers.

Annotated screenshot from procedural radiator show and tell video Mar 24 2022:

Spoiler

Furthermore, this trefoil button appeared on the VAB GUI a long time ago in 2020.  Shadow Zone did a video on it here:

Spoiler

 

Also, here's the link to The Aziz's post mentioned in the video:

Spoiler

 

The fact that this button had consistently shown up in the VAB between 2020 and 2022 tells me that it's part of a stable feature that will be present in the final game.

[Pthigrivi]

54 minutes ago, TLTay said:

Everyone wants more, but I'd rather not have release pushed back for completely unnecessary (but neat) procedural solar that will provide insufficient power for late game purposes anyway. The point is, the existing panels are plenty for right up to the point where solar just isn't enough. I'm fine waiting for a dlc for procedural solar. Lots of work for purely cosmetic reasons.

Yeah I don't know that they need to be procedural, except maybe putting shaped panels on wings might be nice? But I would like to see a series of larger panels akin to near future solar. Even if the engine is drawing off a nuclear or fusion reactor we could be looking at other big energy consumers like bigger habitation spaces, early game ISRU, etc. If wind and geothermal are options then solar that scales well would be nice. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[Clancythecat]

4 hours ago, TLTay said:

Everyone wants more, but I'd rather not have release pushed back for completely unnecessary (but neat) procedural solar that will provide insufficient power for late game purposes anyway. The point is, the existing panels are plenty for right up to the point where solar just isn't enough. I'm fine waiting for a dlc for procedural solar. Lots of work for purely cosmetic reasons.

I don't think they would make procedural solar panels a DLC, i think it should be an update sometime after release,  a fun quality-of-life feature but not integral to the game play.

We need to remember that the developers are going to keep updating the game after it releases.

[danfarnsy]

On 3/25/2022 at 11:52 AM, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was.

You're right, solar gameplay isn't blocked by the absence of a procedural part, but now that you have created the tools for a great looking procedural part, there are a lot of other places (solar included) where it could be used to make awesome lower-part-count ships. Structural trusses for space stations or antenna masts or Stowaway-style centrifugal ships or the like come to mind too.

Is there a need for it at release when you've got deadlines? I don't know. But your team has certainly opened the door for some cool stuff that looks good in a way that procedural parts modding in KSP 1 couldn't reach. Hopefully modders can hook into that for KSP 2, if your team doesn't go beyond radiators. Great looking procedural parts that scale their textures and models correctly is a huge deal. I'm stoked.

[Souptime]

Look at them wiggly bois! this game is gonna be great!

[poopslayer78]

Looks like this ship from the cinematic trailer just got a much lower part count

[t_v]

Oh absolutely. I played modded for the first time about a year ago and I didn’t have the better radiator mods, so my ships were extraordinarily heavy due to the literal hundreds of inefficient radiators. Now, I can just have a few giant inefficient radiators. 

[Bej Kerman]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:03 PM, t_v said:

So, remember that power solutions will go from solar to other technologies in the later game, from fission to fusion to maybe even annihilation power.

Contrary to the popular beliefs in this thread, the early game will still be a thing and people will still want to create ISS repicas. Even then, when you're running Far Future Technologies, all the heavy and bulky reactors can still be beaten by solar panels in any other situation besides large craft and vessels far from any solar energy. Regardless of everything else, solar panels still deserve procedural control. All I'm saying is that you can take your reactors and annihilators, and shove them up your rockets' engine bell because solar panels still deserve to exist, whether you want to make your space station look cooler or if you're trying to make a light probe 

18 hours ago, Clancythecat said:

I don't think they would make procedural solar panels a DLC, i think it should be an update sometime after release,  a fun quality-of-life feature but not integral to the game play.

I completely agree. If a feature is integral to gameplay then it's bad practice to make already heavy paying customers pay for more basic parts.

[TLTay]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

All I'm saying is that you can take your reactors and annihilators, and shove them up your rockets' engine bell

Wow, that escalated quickly.

[t_v]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Contrary to the popular beliefs in this thread, the early game will still be a thing and people will still want to create ISS repicas. Even then, when you're running Far Future Technologies, all the heavy and bulky reactors can still be beaten by solar panels in any other situation besides large craft and vessels far from any solar energy.

It seems you have missed all the people advocating for having procedural solar panels precisely because of early-game applications where precise control over the size of panels is important. Early game, panels are definitely the solution, and they can be helpful during the late game too. One thing I would like you to clarify is whether you are asking for procedural panels or large panel options. The difference is that for one, you get fine control over how much solar energy you are collecting and you get infinite scalability, and the other can also provide extensive scalability at the cost of part counts. (For ISS replicas, those are easy to make with just large solar panels, but I understand what you mean, and as I said above, I also want procedural panels for cosmetic reasons). I still stand by the claim that early game, procedural panels are mostly for cosmetics (which would be great) and in the late game, having a bunch of giant panels instead of one immense panel is fine for colonies because of background optimizations and no super late-game ship should need that much power to run itself. But, this is all subjective, so maybe there is a reason for infinite scalability. 

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

All I'm saying is that you can take your reactors and annihilators, and shove them up your rockets' engine bell

Clever, and I intend to once I get the reactors and annihilators to, well, probably not shove. 

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

21 hours ago, Clancythecat said:

I don't think they would make procedural solar panels a DLC, i think it should be an update sometime after release,  a fun quality-of-life feature but not integral to the game play.

I completely agree. If a feature is integral to gameplay then it's bad practice to make already heavy paying customers pay for more basic parts.

On 3/26/2022 at 1:03 PM, t_v said:

Personally I would appreciate custom sizes of things like structural trusses and panels, as well as solar panels and adapters, but to be fair, those things are not necessary for enjoyment upon release like giant radiators are. a Customization Update would be a welcome one down the line though. 

I think that even if features are not integral to existing gameplay, they should still be an update. Not every piece of development should go to DLCs, even the development that isn't bugfixing and improving core systems. DLCs should probably be reserved to things that add a new gameplay system to add variety to the gameplay. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by t_v

[Bej Kerman]

51 minutes ago, t_v said:

It seems you have missed all the people advocating for having procedural solar panels precisely because of early-game applications where precise control over the size of panels is important.

That settles that then

51 minutes ago, t_v said:

One thing I would like you to clarify is whether you are asking for procedural panels or large panel options

I lost track of how many times I used tiny probes as an example or how many times I used the word procedural. But yeah I'm asking for large panels.

53 minutes ago, t_v said:

I think that even if features are not integral to existing gameplay, they should still be an update. Not every piece of development should go to DLCs, even the development that isn't bugfixing and improving core systems. DLCs should probably be reserved to things that add a new gameplay system to add variety to the gameplay. 

I do completely agree with you here

[Tugagon]

I love that the sequel is embracing parametric design and procedural shaping.

[Pthigrivi]

4 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Contrary to the popular beliefs in this thread, the early game will still be a thing and people will still want to create ISS repicas. Even then, when you're running Far Future Technologies, all the heavy and bulky reactors can still be beaten by solar panels in any other situation besides large craft and vessels far from any solar energy. 

The other thing about panels, at least in a game where they don't degrade, is that they don't consume fuel that needs to be resupplied, which especially for stations and bases is a big deal. This is somewhat offset by lower yields farther out from the host star, so it will be interesting to see where the break-even points are in different applications. 

[mattinoz]

On 3/26/2022 at 4:52 AM, Nate Simpson said:

Seeing this question pop up in a few places. We don't currently have specific plans to add procedural solar panels for release, as solar gameplay wasn't blocked by the absence of a large-scale solution in the way that radiator gameplay was. As you get deeper into the progression, you've got a number of other power generation solutions that don't rely on sunlight (since many of the problems you're solving involve either being very far from a star or being in a situation in which solar intermittency is an obstacle). I'd love to hear the applications you see for big, interestingly-shaped solar panels. 

That's our new VAB music, courtesy of Howard Mostrom. It makes you 28 percent more creative.

Well sure we hear you but.... the radiators already look a lot like solar panels and the game is modable .... 

So do you want to have us using a half hearted mod that converts the radiators into solar panels and posts creations of things not intended by the game but still massive fun to build that need procedural solar panels. 

First thought I had was solar and radiator domes for colonies. Maybe cover over a small carter with geothermal power plant inside making a nice location for crops.