Water on Minmus?

[Kerbalsaurus]

I noticed that the flats on Minmus kind of look like lake beds, and some people even call them lake beds. Also, the breaking ground report on Minmus rocks even says that there was once water on Minmus's surface! But how did it happen, and where did it go? Shouldn't a second Kerbin orbit Kerbin?

 

Theory 1: Minmus Bombardment Era

We know that on Earth, there was a bombardment era very early in our history. It's belived by scientists that comets brought water to our planet. That water evaporated, causing global rain storms for millions of years, creating oceans.  What if the same happened with Minmus? Comets brought water to Minmus, and the gases released from them created an atmosphere for Minmus too. But where did it go? In the Real Solar System, Mars lost it's ozone layer, and consequentially, it's atmosphere . This is because it lost it's heat, due to it's size. It's interior stopped churning because heat escaped it. No atmosphere, no water. Minmus almost certainly suffered the same gloomy fate as Mars. Minmus though is much smaller than Mars, so it's geological activity would've ended very early in it's lifetime. Water would've been there, but not for long. It's a very plausible theory, and probably the most accurate out of the three.

 

Theory 2: Minmus was once part of Kerbin

This one may sound a little outrageous, but hear me out. What if Minmus was once part of Kerbin? While not likely, water could've flown up with Minmus after the celestial body crashed into Kerbin. It would also make sense if that large crater on Kerbin is in fact the remnants of Minmus's formation. This would make more sense, as that crater is fairly recent to Kerbin, a few million years or so. If Minmus was the same age, water existed when the impact happened, and went up with Minmus. We know moons form from planets in real life, too. The Moon was created after a Mars sized planet crashed into Earth. The same most likely happened with the Mun. Minmus is several times smaller then The Mun, and an asteroid the the size of Chixulub crashing into Kerbin would be large enough to create a moon. Ratios in this game are weird.

 

Theory 3: Aliens

You can't prove that it wasn't.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Minmus is actually a giant timecrystal left over from the Conjunction of the Spheres.

(You can't prove that it wasn't, either)

[kerbiloid]

Btw, the Minmus as a Kerbin satellite is enough old to have its orbit round (eccentricity = 0), but younger than normally, as its inclination is 6°, so didn't have enough time to match the Kerbin equatorial plane..

While the Mun orbit is perfectly round and not inclined, while the Mun is much heavier.

So, whatever is the Minmus origin, it appeared near Kerbin much later than Mun.

Its orbit semiaxis  is 47 Mm, while the Kerbin sphere of influence is jus 84 Mm.
So, the Minmus orbit is almost touching the Kerbin SoI, and this may mean that it's either captured, or almost thrown away.

The Minmus/Mun orbital periods ratio is ~=7.75133109:1

So, they are not in a resonance, and this again proves that Minmus didn't have enough time to establish such resonance.

So, Minmus appeared in the Kerbin SoI not long ago, and it unlikely be anything but a captured ice object.

But an ice object couldn't grow at the Kerbin distance from Sun, it would melt and evaporate.

So, it had formed farther from the Sun, where the ice is normal, then approached and captured.

But it's rather big to be a comet, so it's either an escaped icy moon, or an iceteroid, or a main belt comet.
Normally they can stay comets for 10 000 years

The ice lakes are obviously melted then frozen.

As Minmus is captured, its relative speed was low.
So, it's a former Near-Kerbin iceteroid (maybe formed as somebody's moon).

Its orbital period is greater than the Kerbin rotation period, so the Kerbin rotation is accelerating it and will throw out.

As we don't see other ice objects of similar size, so the Kerbal solar system is not full of matter for huge asteroid building.
This means that Minmus has formed in another planet sphere of influence, then escaped, drifting on the heliocentric orbit getting more and more round.
As it was close to the Sun, Minmus probably partially melted and lost some amount of matter.

Then it was captured by Kerbin, tidally melted, frozen, and now is slowly drifting away.

The "lakes" are a frozen, previously melted, areas.
The hills are frozen crystal peaks of ice.

[Kerbalsaurus]

48 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Btw, the Minmus as a Kerbin satellite is enough old to have its orbit round (eccentricity = 0), but younger than normally, as its inclination is 6°, so didn't have enough time to match the Kerbin equatorial plane..

While the Mun orbit is perfectly round and not inclined, while the Mun is much heavier.

So, whatever is the Minmus origin, it appeared near Kerbin much later than Mun.

Its orbit semiaxis  is 47 Mm, while the Kerbin sphere of influence is jus 84 Mm.
So, the Minmus orbit is almost touching the Kerbin SoI, and this may mean that it's either captured, or almost thrown away.

The Minmus/Mun orbital periods ratio is ~=7.75133109:1

So, they are not in a resonance, and this again proves that Minmus didn't have enough time to establish such resonance.

So, Minmus appeared in the Kerbin SoI not long ago, and it unlikely be anything but a captured ice object.

But an ice object couldn't grow at the Kerbin distance from Sun, it would melt and evaporate.

So, it had formed farther from the Sun, where the ice is normal, then approached and captured.

But it's rather big to be a comet, so it's either an escaped icy moon, or an iceteroid, or a main belt comet.
Normally they can stay comets for 10 000 years

The ice lakes are obviously melted then frozen.

As Minmus is captured, its relative speed was low.
So, it's a former Near-Kerbin iceteroid (maybe formed as somebody's moon).

Its orbital period is greater than the Kerbin rotation period, so the Kerbin rotation is accelerating it and will throw out.

As we don't see other ice objects of similar size, so the Kerbal solar system is not full of matter for huge asteroid building.
This means that Minmus has formed in another planet sphere of influence, then escaped, drifting on the heliocentric orbit getting more and more round.
As it was close to the Sun, Minmus probably partially melted and lost some amount of matter.

Then it was captured by Kerbin, tidally melted, frozen, and now is slowly drifting away.

The "lakes" are a frozen, previously melted, areas.
The hills are frozen crystal peaks of ice.

This is an interesting point, ans I've heard the theory that Minmus is a captured comet, but if Minmus was captured, than it's orbit would be much much more out there, similar to Gilly. But Minmus's perfectly round, prograde orbit would suggest that it's an object native to Kerbin. Maybe Minmus could be much older than I let on to it being, and could have formed from ice chunks left over after Kerbin's formation early on in Kerbol's history.

[Dman979]

Moved to KSP Discussion.

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, Kerbalsaurus said:

But Minmus's perfectly round,

Not perfectly. Its lakes occupy only a half of Minmus. So, it was just partially melted. The liquid part evaporated, the flat surface stays.
The hills were more heat-proof, so they mostly stay unchanged.

8 hours ago, Kerbalsaurus said:

prograde orbit would suggest that it's an object native to Kerbin

If it's captured, its original eccentric orbit could be changed by the Mun gravity.

***

As Jool is the only body in this system looking enough heavy to form an ice moon from exhausts, probably Minmus is its former moon which escaped and later approached Kerbin.

Or maybe it's a remain of the legendary GP2, which was announced by the KSP authors at the very beginning of the Kerbal planetary system formation, but then disappeared in unknown cataclysm.

Jool's SoI radius =  25 000 Mm.

Jool moons

	Semiaxis, Mm	Period, ks
Laythe	27.2	53
Vall	43.2	106
Tylo	68.5	212
Bop	128.5	545
Pol	179.9	902

The periods ratio is 53 : 106 : 212 : 545 : 902 = 1 : 2 : 4 : 10.3 : 17

So, while the inner moons (Laythe, Vall, and Tylo) are in perfect resonance, two outer moons aren't.

This probably means something perturbating their orbits. So, the same couldd pull away Minmus.

On the other hand, 17:10.3 = 1.65:1 = 5 : 3.

So, Bop and Pol are in resonance with each other. And to some extent with Tylo (10.3 : 4 = 2.575 : 1 ~= 5 : 2)

Jool moons

	Mass, x1022 kg
Laythe	2.940
Vall	0.311
Tylo	4.233
Bop	0.004
Pol	0.001

So, Tylo as the heaviest Moon, forms two reonant systems: the inner with Layther and Vall, and the outer with Bop and Pol.

Layther is heavy, too, but it's far from the other moons and deep inside the Jool's well, so Tylo prevails.

Is there something like the Titius-Bode law?

R_n = a^n-n₀ + b

R_n+1 = a^n+1-n₀ + b

R_n+1 - R_n = a^n+1-n₀ + b - (a^n-n₀ + b) =  a^n+1-n₀ - a^n-n₀ =  a * a^n-n₀ - a^n-n₀ = (a - 1) * a^n-n₀ .

R_n+2 - R_n+1 = a^n+2-n₀ + b - (a^n+1-n₀ + b) =  a^n+2-n₀ - a^n+1-n₀ =  a * a^n+1-n₀ - a^n+1-n₀ = (a - 1) * a^n+1-n₀ = a*(a - 1) * a^n-n₀ .

(R_n+2 - R_n+1) / (R_n+1 - R_n) = a*(a - 1) * a^n-n₀ / ((a - 1) * a^n-n₀ ) = a.

	Semiaxis R, Mm	Rn-1 - Rn
Laythe	27.2	-
Vall	43.2	16.0
Tylo	68.5	25.3
Bop	128.5	60.0
Pol	179.9	51.4

	dR
Vall-Laythe	16.0
Tylo-Vall	25.3
Bop-Tylo	60.0
Pol-Bop	51.4

	dR	dRn+2 / dRn+1
(Tylo-Vall) / (Vall-Laythe)	16.0	1.58
(Bop-Tylo) / (Tylo-Vall)	25.3	2.37
(Pol-Bop) / (Bop-Tylo)	60.0	0.86

So, there is no Titius-Bode law in the Jool moon system, applicable to all moons.

This means that the moon system has been perturbated, and the equilibrium hasn't been established yet.

But the SoI of Jool is much larger. 25 000 Mm vs 180 Mm of Pol orbit.

This means that the outer region of the SoI had been perturbated and lost its content.

The closest planet to the Jool are Dres and Eeloo.

Planet	Orbit semiaxis, Mm	Distance to Jool, Mm	Distance to Jool,Jool SoIs
Dres	40 839	27 935	1.1
Jool	68 774	-
Eeloo	90 119	21 345	0.85

So, as we can see, both Dres and Eeloo are either inside or almost inside the Jool SoI, so they are actually the Jool's quasi-moons, like the Earth's quasi-moon Cruithne.

It's a KSP devs fake-up real evidence that there is no Dres Eeloo, Dres, and probably Minmus are the former Joolian moons, previously orbiting in the outer part of it sphere of influence.

(all data from KSP wiki)

[The Aziz]

KSP2 devs stepping up with glassy Minmus to prove all your icy theories wrong

[Kerbalsaurus]

 

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

KSP2 devs stepping up with glassy Minmus to prove all your icy theories wrong

Well, I’m talking about the KSP 1 Minmus. When I finally get my grubby hands on KSP 2, you can be sure that I’ll make a thread about glassy Minmus’s formation.

[Kekkie]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:21 PM, kerbiloid said:

[snip]

But an ice object couldn't grow at the Kerbin distance from Sun, it would melt and evaporate.

...

The ice lakes are obviously melted then frozen.

...

The "lakes" are a frozen, previously melted, areas.
The hills are frozen crystal peaks of ice.

How exactly did this happen? You said that they were melted by tidal interactions with Kerbin but then how did they refreeze? Tidal forces are still acting on Minmus while it is in orbit, no?

[Kerbalsaurus]

If the comet theory was the correct theory, Minmus could be drifting away from Kerbin. This can happen in real life, too. The Moon is drifting away from Earth, several times slower than a snail's pace. Minmus could have been captured at a much closer orbit to Kerbin, but as it drifted away, tidal forces on it would've gotten lower, and Minmus would refreeze. Remember that Minmus is right on the edge of Kerbin's SOI, so tidal forces out there would almost be non existent.

[Kerbalsaurus]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:21 PM, kerbiloid said:

Btw, the Minmus as a Kerbin satellite is enough old to have its orbit round (eccentricity = 0), but younger than normally, as its inclination is 6°, so didn't have enough time to match the Kerbin equatorial plane..

While the Mun orbit is perfectly round and not inclined, while the Mun is much heavier.

So, whatever is the Minmus origin, it appeared near Kerbin much later than Mun.

Its orbit semiaxis  is 47 Mm, while the Kerbin sphere of influence is jus 84 Mm.
So, the Minmus orbit is almost touching the Kerbin SoI, and this may mean that it's either captured, or almost thrown away.

The Minmus/Mun orbital periods ratio is ~=7.75133109:1

So, they are not in a resonance, and this again proves that Minmus didn't have enough time to establish such resonance.

So, Minmus appeared in the Kerbin SoI not long ago, and it unlikely be anything but a captured ice object.

But an ice object couldn't grow at the Kerbin distance from Sun, it would melt and evaporate.

So, it had formed farther from the Sun, where the ice is normal, then approached and captured.

But it's rather big to be a comet, so it's either an escaped icy moon, or an iceteroid, or a main belt comet.
Normally they can stay comets for 10 000 years

The ice lakes are obviously melted then frozen.

As Minmus is captured, its relative speed was low.
So, it's a former Near-Kerbin iceteroid (maybe formed as somebody's moon).

Its orbital period is greater than the Kerbin rotation period, so the Kerbin rotation is accelerating it and will throw out.

As we don't see other ice objects of similar size, so the Kerbal solar system is not full of matter for huge asteroid building.
This means that Minmus has formed in another planet sphere of influence, then escaped, drifting on the heliocentric orbit getting more and more round.
As it was close to the Sun, Minmus probably partially melted and lost some amount of matter.

Then it was captured by Kerbin, tidally melted, frozen, and now is slowly drifting away.

The "lakes" are a frozen, previously melted, areas.
The hills are frozen crystal peaks of ice.

I just read this back and realized, that still doesn’t answer my question. The breaking ground analysis clearly states that water flowed on Minmus’s surface. If Minmus was a comet, how did water freely flow on it’s surface?

[kerbiloid]

It's a former Jool moon lost when the gods got mad devs stepped with sphere of influence sizes.

[Beamer]

It might have made multiple passes through the inner system before it got captured, some passing much closer by Kerbol than Kerbin's distance. It's unlikely it moved from Jool to Kerbin via a neat Hohmann transfer at an optimal transfer window, it probably followed a somewhat more chaotic/random path. Unless you believe the Alien theory, it could be the ice melted because of the heat of the engines they strapped to Minmus to move it.