Modding in KSP 2

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Now that this thread has been revived, with ksp2 taking more of a firm sci fi approach, I think (or at least hope) a lot of the mods will take a lighter sci fi approach. Weird planets that wouldn't quite make sense in real life however would be fun to mess around on (stuff like donut planets or just any of the planets from outer wild), your more out there sci fi engines (such as ftl drives), etc. 

KSP 2 isn't taking a sci fi approach, it's taking a real science approach.

[Strawberry]

While orion drives and metallic hydrogen are probably possible, they dont exist yet, even though these things are probably realistic, they're still fictional. KSP2 is definitely on the harder side when it comes to sci fi, however I wouldn't quite call it hard sci fi with its approach to planets which while possible tend to be very improbable. KSP2 is willing to bend the rules just a little when it comes to things that are still up in the air/unlikely (see metallic hydrogen). 

[Ryaja]

5 hours ago, Strawberry said:

While orion drives and metallic hydrogen are probably possible

They made Orion drives when they could still test nukes, and they worked. But nuke testing is illegal now.

[Strawberry]

21 minutes ago, Ryaja said:

They made Orion drives when they could still test nukes, and they worked. But nuke testing is illegal now.

They tested the pusher plate setup with conventional weaponry (on earth, with relatively limited pulses), they never tested an orion drive with nukes. 

[Ryaja]

3 hours ago, Strawberry said:

They tested the pusher plate setup with conventional weaponry (on earth, with relatively limited pulses), they never tested an orion drive with nukes. 

My bad I thought they did but I mean they still existed.

[magnemoe]

19 hours ago, Strawberry said:

While orion drives and metallic hydrogen are probably possible, they dont exist yet, even though these things are probably realistic, they're still fictional. KSP2 is definitely on the harder side when it comes to sci fi, however I wouldn't quite call it hard sci fi with its approach to planets which while possible tend to be very improbable. KSP2 is willing to bend the rules just a little when it comes to things that are still up in the air/unlikely (see metallic hydrogen). 

Orion drives probably work. None has flown an nuclear thermal rocket engine either but they has been tested on the ground and they are much smaller and simpler. 
Metallic hydrogen fuel is unlikely but KSP 2 development started then it was a very popular topic. 
Fusion engines is much more questionable than orion drives but less than metallic hydrogen. Plausible but we don't really know how heavy they will be and how much trust they will give. 
I will say KSP 2 is hard sci fi. 

As for mods, well realism mods like real solar system will obvious come. Bonus is that it will probably be much easier to use because of new engines even if you don't use metallic hydrogen.
 

[KerikBalm]

On 10/2/2022 at 7:19 PM, Bej Kerman said:

KSP 2 isn't taking a sci fi approach, it's taking a real science approach.

 

On 10/2/2022 at 7:22 PM, Strawberry said:

While orion drives and metallic hydrogen are probably possible, they dont exist yet, even though these things are probably realistic, they're still fictional. KSP2 is definitely on the harder side when it comes to sci fi, 

Not wanting to restart the metallic hydrogen debate, I will just say that I agree with everything else Strawberry said (although Orion drive is *certainly* possible).

It is Sci-Fi, but so we're communication satellites at one point. It is (mostly) not fictional science/fantasy in space.

Back to the topic, I expect many planet mods to be carried over with extensive reworking since much finer scale details are possible 

 

 

[SciMan]

@Motokid600

Take Two is just a corporation like any other. They can do things that are greedy and seen as "evil overlording capitalism company blah blah blah" but they don't OWN the people making KSP 2.

So if Take Two made a decision that REALLY would kill KSP 2's prospects of being loved by the fans of KSP 1, those developers would simply join together, and pretty much collectively say "Fine, we'll do it on our own!", followed by them all resigning from Intercept Games and forming a wholly KSP fan owned and operated company dedicated to finishing the work on KSP 2.

Also, games that have those bad monetization models and "pay to win" or "pay to not grind" type of game loops tend to be designed to play that way from the start.

There were no games that I know of that got "infected" with microtransactions "after release". They either got them during early access (in which case it was likely always in the road-map from the start), or they had them from the start to begin with (again, that means that monetization would have always been in the plan from the start).

In other words, "Take Two stands to gain exactly nothing by being an overly meddling game producer company for Intercept Games, because these people love this game so much that they'll get it done the right way even if that means problems producing it".

From the modding angle it doesn't make sense either, and here's why: KSP fans are so dedicated that merely putting a DMCA takedown on a mod won't kill that mod. They'll come up with another implementation of that mod (maybe coded differently and better, maybe just forked) with a new name, distributed somewhere else, within a week or 3. Even if that means using back-channel methods to distribute those mods. But in reality, it'll never come to that, because Take Two probably knows to not mess with this game in that way.

The whole thing with banning modding of GTA 5 did NOTHING to stop people from modding GTA 5, they continued on like nothing happened, because from Take Two's perspective, it's an impossible game of whack-a-mole. You ban or sue one modder, and 5 more pop up doing literally the same thing in their place.

Besides, you can't do any of this if KSP 2 doesn't require a persistent online connection, because then you can't force it to verify its game files (aka the stuff people would be modifying) before you play with it.
That whole "not requiring an online connection" is another thing that is designed in to KSP 2 from the ground-up. Along with no DRM.

Combine all that together, and you get a game that's not only open to modding on purpose, but even if it wasn't it wouldn't be too hard to make sure mods stay working from version to version of KSP 2 even if you had to do things like code injection (like you have to do with a few other games like Valheim and Risk of Rain 2 and Dyson Sphere Program).

So I'm of the opinion that modding is inevitable and not able to be prevented.

[Ashandalar]

3 hours ago, SciMan said:

So if Take Two made a decision that REALLY would kill KSP 2's prospects of being loved by the fans of KSP 1, those developers would simply join together, and pretty much collectively say "Fine, we'll do it on our own!", followed by them all resigning from Intercept Games and forming a wholly KSP fan owned and operated company dedicated to finishing the work on KSP 2.

Currently, I'm not overly concerned about what Take Two will do to the KSP IP (after all, from what I can see, they seem to have put it in the hands of developers who are passionate about making a fantastic sequel), but this paragraph is pure fantasy. If Take Two suddenly decide to butcher the franchise and order Intercept to wield the cleaver, there may very well be resignations, but the developers who quit would have no legal basis to take any of the code or assets with them, or continue working on on the game independently. Take Two own the IP, and what you describe would almost certainly be classed as a form of industrial espionage (though I'm not a lawyer, nor am I based in the US, so there may be some further nuance I'm unaware of).

[magnemoe]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:46 PM, SciMan said:

@Motokid600

Take Two is just a corporation like any other. They can do things that are greedy and seen as "evil overlording capitalism company blah blah blah" but they don't OWN the people making KSP 2.

So if Take Two made a decision that REALLY would kill KSP 2's prospects of being loved by the fans of KSP 1, those developers would simply join together, and pretty much collectively say "Fine, we'll do it on our own!", followed by them all resigning from Intercept Games and forming a wholly KSP fan owned and operated company dedicated to finishing the work on KSP 2.

Also, games that have those bad monetization models and "pay to win" or "pay to not grind" type of game loops tend to be designed to play that way from the start.

There were no games that I know of that got "infected" with microtransactions "after release". They either got them during early access (in which case it was likely always in the road-map from the start), or they had them from the start to begin with (again, that means that monetization would have always been in the plan from the start).

In other words, "Take Two stands to gain exactly nothing by being an overly meddling game producer company for Intercept Games, because these people love this game so much that they'll get it done the right way even if that means problems producing it".

From the modding angle it doesn't make sense either, and here's why: KSP fans are so dedicated that merely putting a DMCA takedown on a mod won't kill that mod. They'll come up with another implementation of that mod (maybe coded differently and better, maybe just forked) with a new name, distributed somewhere else, within a week or 3. Even if that means using back-channel methods to distribute those mods. But in reality, it'll never come to that, because Take Two probably knows to not mess with this game in that way.

The whole thing with banning modding of GTA 5 did NOTHING to stop people from modding GTA 5, they continued on like nothing happened, because from Take Two's perspective, it's an impossible game of whack-a-mole. You ban or sue one modder, and 5 more pop up doing literally the same thing in their place.

Besides, you can't do any of this if KSP 2 doesn't require a persistent online connection, because then you can't force it to verify its game files (aka the stuff people would be modifying) before you play with it.
That whole "not requiring an online connection" is another thing that is designed in to KSP 2 from the ground-up. Along with no DRM.

Combine all that together, and you get a game that's not only open to modding on purpose, but even if it wasn't it wouldn't be too hard to make sure mods stay working from version to version of KSP 2 even if you had to do things like code injection (like you have to do with a few other games like Valheim and Risk of Rain 2 and Dyson Sphere Program).

So I'm of the opinion that modding is inevitable and not able to be prevented.

Agree, an very good example is Skyrim Script Extender (SKSE) who as the name says inject code into the skyrim executable. 
This exactly how lots of cracks, cheats or viruses work. You can download it from steam  
Think the setting was work with us and we will not support pirated versions, deny us and only pirated versions will work.
Don't look like its an version for fallout 4, I guess the API is better and its not that an large moding community for FO4. 

As KSP 2 will have no DRM, well its no problems  

Now long running games like MMO and other online games needs an long term income plan. DLC and cosmetic is probably better than an subscription for more causal players. 
Yes you have edges from WOW being an subscription only game  and selling cosmetic and services up to FIFA levels. 
The only fear I see for KSP 2 is that the multiplayer require you to rent an server rater than doing it locally. 

[CriOwO]

Things are looking good in regards to the modding scene, in the latest dev diary it seemed like they wanted to make the game as moddable as possible

[Snark]

3 minutes ago, CriOwO said:

Things are looking good in regards to the modding scene, in the latest dev diary it seemed like they wanted to make the game as moddable as possible

More to the point:  in today's announcement about the KSP2 early access release date, they come right out and acknowledge how important modding is to the game, and explicitly say that it will be "moddable from day 1".

(Which is basically the same thing as they told us back at the original KSP2 announcement in 2019.)

6 hours ago, Intercept Games said:

Modding: We expect modders to dig into KSP2 on day one. We recognize that the modding community has played a big role in the longevity of KSP, and we continue to be impressed by the mods that are released. The team aims to ensure that over the course of Early Access, the sequel is even more mod-friendly and release updates aimed to support the modding community. Additionally, the team will be collecting feedback and analyzing how to continue to improve modding support with the community.

 

So I think we're good here, folks. 

[Bej Kerman]

On 10/17/2022 at 8:46 AM, SciMan said:

So if Take Two made a decision that REALLY would kill KSP 2's prospects of being loved by the fans of KSP 1, those developers would simply join together, and pretty much collectively say "Fine, we'll do it on our own!", followed by them all resigning from Intercept Games and forming a wholly KSP fan owned and operated company dedicated to finishing the work on KSP 2.

Then Take Two sues them, game over. Really not a simple situation.

[Snark]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Then Take Two sues them, game over. Really not a simple situation.

Good thing that Intercept established today that they're emphasizing moddability right from the start, then, yes?  <see immediately preceding post here>

 

[Bej Kerman]

10 hours ago, Snark said:

Good thing that Intercept established today that they're emphasizing moddability right from the start, then, yes?

I don't see what that has got to do with anything? Modding =/= redistributing a game T2 doesn't want redistributing.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

I don't see what that has got to do with anything? Modding =/= redistributing a game T2 doesn't want redistributing.

It has to do with modding in KSP2.  Which is, after all, the topic of this thread:

Quote

Modding in KSP 2

...right?

And, in the course of this discussion, the concern was raised about what if the Big Evil Corporation goes after modders and so we don't get mods for KSP2:

On 10/2/2022 at 12:25 PM, Motokid600 said:

I think Take Two being the biggest scum bags in the gaming industry will shower KSP2 modders with DMCA and cease and desists. 

So I was addressing that concern (which Motokid600 originally raised, and SciMan responded to, and you responded to) by pointing out that today's announcement addressed that fairly nicely and explicitly.  Because "KSP2 being highly moddable" is something that lots of people care about (thus this thread, yes?), and I'd hate to think that there are folks out there who may be needlessly unhappy or anxious because they're worrying about a thing that's been announced is not going to happen.

[Bej Kerman]

10 hours ago, Snark said:

It has to do with modding in KSP2.  Which is, after all, the topic of this thread:

...right?

And, in the course of this discussion, the concern was raised about what if the Big Evil Corporation goes after modders and so we don't get mods for KSP2:

So I was addressing that concern (which Motokid600 originally raised, and SciMan responded to, and you responded to) by pointing out that today's announcement addressed that fairly nicely and explicitly.  Because "KSP2 being highly moddable" is something that lots of people care about (thus this thread, yes?), and I'd hate to think that there are folks out there who may be needlessly unhappy or anxious because they're worrying about a thing that's been announced is not going to happen.

The entire point of this debate is that Sci gave us a theoretical in which T2 does something so controversial that Intercept disbands from T2 and finishes KSP 2 on their own. Besides financing the project and publishing it, T2 going after them is also a problem. Do feel free to explain how Intercept would ever manage to avoid a hefty lawsuit if they tried to finish KSP 2 behind their backs.

[Motokid600]

5 hours ago, Snark said:

So I was addressing that concern (which Motokid600 originally raised, and SciMan responded to, and you responded to) by pointing out that today's announcement addressed that fairly nicely and explicitly.  Because "KSP2 being highly moddable" is something that lots of people care about (thus this thread, yes?), and I'd hate to think that there are folks out there who may be needlessly unhappy or anxious because they're worrying about a thing that's been announced is not going to happen.

I agree. Alot of what I was worried about was extinguished with the announcement. Cant wait for it!

Edited October 22, 2022 by Motokid600