KSP2 - Science Progress

[Pthigrivi]

13 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

This is why I push so hard about the in game encyclopedia thing. It wouldn't be a grind if it became an undefined useful goal. I'm okay with science generating points to push the tech tree along, as a game mechanic, it makes sense. But just because science accomplishes a simple game mechanic goal doesn't mean that should be its only use. Now personally, I wouldn't mind if the comms management got a little more complex, but I understand if that isn't for everyone.

That said, Kerbalism's mechanic of capturing science passively over time, in my opinion, is a real necessity. It pushes players to be able to maintain a condition as opposed to momentarily reaching it which leads to more requiring more creativity, ingenuity, and engineering... which I believe is a good thing as that seems to be a core goal in this game, as well as taking out the scramble to click all the "take data" buttons which feels a bit empty to me.

Yeah it sounds like I'm against the encyclopedia idea, and I'm not. What mean is for science to be worth it for most players you really want this information to be part of the game itself. I think overheat prediction and trajectory prediction are a couple of obvious unlocks. They've also shown a simulator mode that might work from KSC from the beginning, but after you'd dropped a probe with a thermometer and barometer on it through the atmosphere on other worlds you could then test ascents and descents there. The other bit would be precise altimetry and slope mapping from orbit so you could more easily land on level terrain. Biome and radiation scanning could be important, and obviously resource scanning. The flavor text is wonderful, but you really want to also sneak important real science into the game itself. 

I think we're all pretty used to puttering around KSOI for way, way too much time. Ideally players would be able to do a couple suborbital missions, a few probe missions to the moons, a landing or 3, and be ready to send their first interplanetary probes and start building stations and bases. The first step I think would be to reduce the total number of large biomes so players weren't incentivised to do 10 different Minmus hops. I think you could get Kerbin, Minmus, and the Mun down to 3-5 main biomes each, but each biome would require different levels of difficulty and importantly would have higher rewards. So if on the Mun you just had Craters, Midlands, Canyons, and Poles you wouldn't feel like you had to land in every crater, and if you managed a landing in a canyon or on the poles you'd get more science for your efforts. Later, once players had landed on the Mun and sent their first interplanetary probes you could introduce an anomaly scanner that would let you map much smaller, more lucrative mini-biomes. 

I do like that Kerbalism makes experiments more passive and less clicky, but this brings up some other issues with science that pays out over time. I think you do want things that happen over time but they should really work at constant rate for a limited time and then halt. If it's something like a thermometer on the Mun's surface it should work for one orbit and then stop. If its an orbital biome scanner it should work like SCANsat, imaging the surface until the scan is complete and then stop. The transmission should be  automatic whether continuous or intermittent, and when its complete you get a little notification with the siencey information about what you learned. That way you're not constantly clicking through and dismissing reports when you're trying to land or do something delicate. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[mcwaffles2003]

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

They've also shown a simulator mode that might work from KSC from the beginning, but after you'd dropped a probe with a thermometer and barometer on it through the atmosphere on other worlds you could then test ascents and descents there. The other bit would be precise altimetry and slope mapping from orbit so you could more easily land on level terrain. Biome and radiation scanning could be important, and obviously resource scanning. The flavor text is wonderful, but you really want to also sneak important real science into the game itself.

What if the simulation mode got tied into the science? For example, to do a simulation on laythe you need to first discover it, then laythe can finally appear in the simulatable world. But until a probe detects it with a barometer/thermometer, the atmosphere isnt simulated, only the gravity. Further, if you want to simulate a prospecting mission, you can't simulate the resource retrieval until you sufficiently scan the regions resources. Stuff like that.

As for getting people away from kerbin, I have a fair amount of faith that the extended goals in the game along with the tutorials will do wonders.

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

I do like that Kerbalism makes experiments more passive and less clicky, but this brings up some other issues with science that pays out over time. I think you do want things that happen over time but they should really work at constant rate for a limited time and then halt. If it's something like a thermometer on the Mun's surface it should work for one orbit and then stop. If its an orbital biome scanner it should work like SCANsat, imaging the surface until the scan is complete and then stop. The transmission should be  automatic whether continuous or intermittent, and when its complete you get a little notification with the siencey information about what you learned. That way you're not constantly clicking through and dismissing reports when you're trying to land or do something delicate. 

Kerbalism already does all that too though unless you force the experiments to go on after 100% completion, with the exception of time independent tasks like sample drilling. I think sir mortimer and got machine really nailed science with that mod.

[Cpt72Bug]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:53 PM, mcwaffles2003 said:

What if the simulation mode got tied into the science? For example, to do a simulation on laythe you need to first discover it, then laythe can finally appear in the simulatable world. But until a probe detects it with a barometer/thermometer, the atmosphere isnt simulated, only the gravity. Further, if you want to simulate a prospecting mission, you can't simulate the resource retrieval until you sufficiently scan the regions resources. Stuff like that.

 

Might be difficult with the scale they are promising. 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:11 PM, Pthigrivi said:

I think we're all pretty used to puttering around KSOI for way, way too much time.

Don't forget or minimize how hard this game is for some folks.

The first time I figured out how to do an orbital rendezvous and actually docked two ships together seemed like a major accomplishment.  Like seriously, I was proud of myself for figuring it out!  After I took a couple of years off, I had to relearn this, and again felt a sense of 'man, that was hard - glad I remembered how to do this!'  In that (last) playthrough, I got to a  point where I was doing docking runs routinely, flying Kerbals and Fuel all over the place... and yeah, after a while, that can seem a bit grindy.

But those of us who've played this and mastered 'the basics' should not gloss over just how difficult this can be for some people - and how unbelievably compelling it can be to do something so difficult.

My first go... After I had done all I wanted to in the Kerbin SOI, I flung a couple of probes out, and then dove a ship toward Eve and again was just amazed that I was able to get it into an orbit.  A very ugly orbit... but it was an orbit -- and I did it!

Those 'little' moments of accomplishment are something very very few other games have given me.  Besting a Boss on SuperFlamingDemonHunterVII does not even come close.

[Pthigrivi]

I spent a bit of time thinking about this over the weekend. I think when considering how experiments should work you actually want to think first about how they affect the player and player behavior. The idea should be to lay out a simple set of tasks that have many possible solutions, to expand gameplay as much as possible while requiring as little repetition as possible. One big part of this should be surface samples and other tasks that only Kerbals can do. Kerbal-only science should be worth at least 60% of total possible returns. I also think we shouldn't be worried to remove or combine experiments if they aren't really contributing to gameplay. I thought I'd take a stab at an early suite of experiments that would carry you into interplanetary missions (suggested multipliers in parentheses). With a bit of time I could probably balance this a bit more tightly, but the general idea is to encourage players to find multiple strategies to scan, drop probes, send crewed missions and set up local science labs in whatever combination they wished. I might have further thoughts on science lab mechanics and science processing over time but I like starting with the supply side. 

Suborbital Science >

Thermometer - This is a passive instrument that collects data in small chunks when entering new biomes, but will gather passively for 30 days when placed on the surface. Transmission is automatic by default. When attached to a vehicle reveals heat bars for overheating parts. (1x per biome, 3x for surface scan)

Barometer - Another passive instrument that collects data as it passes vertically through the atmosphere, but will gather passively for 30 days when placed on an atmospheric surface. When a barometric scan is complete unlocks drag prediction on that world. When both thermometer and barometric scans are complete unlocks overheat prediction and simulation options. (4x per full atmo. 3x for surface scan)

Surface Sample - Requires scientist to collect. Samples must be returned to kerbin or science lab for analysis and cannot be transmitted. Reveals surface resources within 10km (15x per sample)

Orbital Science >

Geiger counter - Passive instrument that collects data based on total depth traveled through a given SOI. Will also gather passively for 30 days when placed on the surface. Reveals uranium deposit data within 10km after complete surface scan. (2x per SOI scan, 4x per surface scan)

Orbital Altimeter - Passive orbital scanner with set FOV produces altimetry and slope maps. Transmits automatically based on % of surface scanned. (4x for orbital scan)

Orbital Imaging instrument - Passive orbital scanner produces biome maps. Transmits automatically based on % of surface scanned (4x for orbital scan)

Surface Science >

Seismometer - Passive experiment that gathers over 30 days when placed on the surface. Reveals subsurface mineral deposits within 10km. Bonus results after impact on same body extends mineral scanning range to 50km. (3x per surface scan, + 3x for first impact)

Scanning Arm - Requires surface activation. Reveals surface resource quantities within 5km. (5x per surface scan)

KSEP Deployable instrument package - Self-powered, passive instrument package combining surface thermometer, barometer, seismometer, + geiger counter experiments. Requires scientist and engineer to deploy. Runs for 10 days, reveals subsurface resources within 10k, then transmits automatically. (15x per scan, + 4x for impactor test)

Thumper - Surface deployable impactor simulator. Requires 2 engineers to set up and activates seismometers on local body. Fire in the hole!

Orbital Spectrometer - Passive orbital scanner produces low-res resource maps. Transmits based on % of surface scanned (4x for orbital scan)

Atmospheric Atomizer - Passive experiment useful on bodies with atmospheres. Runs for 2 minutes and shows atmospheric resources at high and low altitudes. (5x per scan)

Deep Space Science >

Core sample drill - Surface sampler requires engineer + scientist. Only useful on features/anomalies. Samples must be returned to Kerbin or Science Lab for analysis. (30x per sample)

Surface Survey - Requires fully staffed science lab and runs for 100 days. Reveals surface resources within 50km. (30x per survey)

Magnetometer Boom - Passive orbital scanner maps radiation belts within 100km. Transmits based on volume scanned and best placed in inclined, elliptical orbits. (5x per SOI)

 Anomaly Detector - Passive orbital scanner identifies surface features + anomalies w/ narrower FOV and lower max altitude. (3x per discovered anomaly)

Multispectral Orbital Scanner - Combines Altimetry, Biome, + resource scanning at narrower FOV and lower max altitude. (12x for full scan)

Orbital Telescope: Once placed in orbit above 500km can target bodies within the Kerbin system for analysis. Runs for 15 days each and reveals average resources present. (4x Body) 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[mcwaffles2003]

6 hours ago, Cpt72Bug said:

Might be difficult with the scale they are promising. 

In what way? You just hide things behind restrictions that are conditionally lifted based on specific science collection completions. I assume the atmosphere and the lithosphere of different bodies are separate assets so you can load or  or not load them as you wish.

[Pthigrivi]

19 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Don't forget or minimize how hard this game is for some folks.

While I do hope the tutorials help a lot with this I think you’re absolutely right that lots of players are going to play at different paces. What Im hoping for isn’t that players aren’t allowed to mess around in KSOI, but that we take out enough grind so that they don’t feel like the have to. In principle a mid-level player should be able to gather the parts they need to send out interplanetary probes within about 10 launches if they wanted to. 
 

So to explain the above set of experiment ideas in a more succinct way: I’ve dropped experiments that don’t give the player new information, added ones that do, and reduced the number that require direct player input to just a few (most are passive). The idea is to focus each experiment on gathering a specific useful bit of data so that even sandbox players might end up using most of them. I’ve also tried to array them so that with a few clever missions you can get all the major pre-anomaly science from a body, but there are many ways to accomplish that. Say Minmus had 3 main biomes: Flats, Midlands, and Poles. Right after your first orbital mission you could send a polar orbiter to start mapping altitude and biomes, and include a small lander probe that would set up on one of the poles gathering temperature and radiation data. Or you could gather a bit more orbital data from both moons and set up a hopper lander that takes surface scans and leaves smaller probes behind to study temp, radiation, and seismology. Or you could use planes to gather more data on Kerbin and send a 3-crew mission to take surface samples and place deployable instruments. With just a few big biomes visible from the outset you’ve both encouraged more creative problem solving and reduced the total number of missions before moving on to interplanetary. While the longer term experiments do help pace things in the lead up to the first Duna and Moho windows you also don’t really want to time-warp through each one because it’s better to have multiple tests running simultaneously. I think this centers the game on building and flying interesting missions but leaves it open to players how fast or how slow they’d like to go. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

11 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

a mid-level player should be able to gather the parts they need to send out interplanetary probes within about 10 launches if they wanted to.

 

12 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

creative problem solving and reduced the total number of missions before moving on to interplanetary

I remind myself that this is in relation to our hopes for a very interesting revamp to the science system and player progression mechanics. 

First off - I'm a fan of, and anticipate they will retain some version of the tech tree system.  Primarily because it enhances gameplay.  It also reduces confusion for new players and is quite educational. 

At the same time, I respect the fact that there are players who've mastered KSP and are looking forward to rapidly unlocking everything and exploring the expanded '2' cosmos.  

If I read your concern correctly - you don't want the science system to become too grindy or a barrier to 'getting to the outer planets, colony parts or other systems'.  I agree. 

But let me point out something from the current game: skilled players can accomplish the 'unlocks' easily.  I've referred to my second play through - and where in the first I struggled to get to orbit or build a plane that can fly or to land on a moon, in the second I readily did all those things - and unlocked most of the parts without having to to leave the Kerbin SOI.

There is a real value for new / inexperienced players to having a limited number of parts in that it both reduces complexity and forces creativity and learning.  It's why playing the progression is better than playing the sandbox. 

[desert]

I like the amount of Kerbalism mentions in threads like these. It means that Kerbalism devs hit the nail with it's science system. It gives you the distinct and realistic experiment types and you don't have to micromanage it by constantly clicking measurement buttons.

Measurements take time and power and can be transmitted completely. It creates an incentive to make balanced crafts with enough data capacity and throughput. Sample collection results have to be analyzed by scientists or have to be transmitted. It creates incentive to make returnable missions or stations.

Kerbalism's UI is a bit difficult to understand but I think it can be improved. There are also some problems with the way it works on the background, but hopefully with a good resource system it can be implemented better.

Tying science system with encyclopedia sounds cool, but I think it would be annoying for experienced players if it will prevent them from checking planet parameters before the flight. They will just google parameters or install an unlocking mod. So the system mustn't be very restrictive.

As for parts progression, there should definitely be some better balancing, so that players actually leave Kerbin and Kerbol SOI instead of grinding science there. Again, it shouldn't be very restrictive, but it should motivate players to move on, instead of unlocking complete tech tree by farming science on Minmus.

[SciMan]

Actually, I think the science system SHOULD be rather restrictive. But not in the way you think.

I think that the best motivation to "making players move on" is to not give them enough of what they want at the "easy" places to begin with.

You shouldn't be ABLE to unlock all the tech tree using just science from Kerbin and it's 2 moons.

In other words, if a player wants to use the full gamut of parts available in Sandbox, they should be FORCED to explore interplanetary destinations, simply by lack of resources to accomplish the task of unlocking everything.

The problem is that there is a threshold that needs to be discovered where it's "enough science to make interplanetary missions feasible without too much difficulty" while also limiting the player enough that they might have problems jumping to (for instance) a fully reusable Jool-5 mission, or an Eve surface return mission.
With later tech, obviously those two things would become much more possible, or perhaps even with the later tech engines even "pretty much trivial", but that needs to be saved for later, when the player has more experience with piloting (and/or planning out) missions.
Most people have problems with landings on bodies without an atmosphere the first few times, and some never master it, there is such a thing as "I'm not good at this game but I love it, so let me play it", so don't skip out on an autopilot because of the far too common "get gud" reason.

People always say "but putting in an autopilot removes the "fly" in "build fly dream" and I'd like to go on the record saying that IMO that's a load of bull. If further explanation of my position is required, I'm prepared to do so, but I don't wanna drag that argument into this thread, suffice it to say that having the autopilot on doesn't mean the player's not in control, and therefore the player is still in fact "flying" the thing they built.

Edited November 8, 2022 by SciMan

[mcwaffles2003]

7 hours ago, desert said:

Tying science system with encyclopedia sounds cool, but I think it would be annoying for experienced players if it will prevent them from checking planet parameters before the flight. They will just google parameters or install an unlocking mod. So the system mustn't be very restrictive.

I get this, but isn't that what a sandbox gameplay mode is for? To skip the progression mechanics and just go off to wherever you can build a vessel to get?

[mcwaffles2003]

5 hours ago, SciMan said:

The problem is that there is a threshold that needs to be discovered where it's "enough science to make interplanetary missions feasible without too much difficulty" while also limiting the player enough that they might have problems jumping to (for instance) a fully reusable Jool-5 mission, or an Eve surface return mission.
With later tech, obviously those two things would become much more possible, or perhaps even with the later tech engines even "pretty much trivial", but that needs to be saved for later, when the player has more experience with piloting (and/or planning out) missions.
Most people have problems with landings on bodies without an atmosphere the first few times, and some never master it, there is such a thing as "I'm not good at this game but I love it, so let me play it", so don't skip out on an autopilot because of the far too common "get gud" reason.

I think a balance can be struck here. There are a set of things that should (though not need) be accomplished in a certain order. For instance,  a comms array should be built before interplanetary missions to ensure comms upon arrival. Further, the mun/minmus should be reached, though not necessarily landed on , before sending interplanetary probes. So just ensure science scales in the kerbin system so that setting up 3 orbital satellites and a lunar probe can produce enough science to make interplanetary travel feasible.

Also, make simple Kerbin ground science worth almost nothing since its obviously already explored since before the space program started kerbals roamed kerbin. This would push players right from the start to aim high and not biome hop kerbin. Also, increase first biome science point revenues and have them taper off per each biome. I like biome hopping, but it should not be the mechanic for progression and when it is it makes hopping a grind instead of a discovery. Also, lets be real, finding the last biome on a planet would not be as fruitful scientifically as the first, there's plenty of overlap that would happen over time.

An exception to the prior paragraph though... Outside kerbin make very tiny biomes that are very wonderful and make them worth extra. Put volcanoes down and make sampling the magma worth something big, make deep ocean trenches and have them be worth something great. IDK! Put a goo pit with the primordial stirrings of life down and make sampling it worth something. Maybe have bio experiments give little science on lifeless planets but leave little jackpots on places where it is. There's a lot that can be fleshed out here. Maybe make it so you can't find these biomes with normal spectrometers and they're only uncovered cartographically with anomaly scanners and all anomalies are actually beautiful vistas.

[Cpt72Bug]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:22 PM, mcwaffles2003 said:

I think a balance can be struck here. There are a set of things that should (though not need) be accomplished in a certain order. For instance,  a comms array should be built before interplanetary missions to ensure comms upon arrival. Further, the mun/minmus should be reached, though not necessarily landed on , before sending interplanetary probes. So just ensure science scales in the kerbin system so that setting up 3 orbital satellites and a lunar probe can produce enough science to make interplanetary travel feasible.

There is enough science in the first game to get a tech tree from the moon and earth orbit with science station. I think they should incourage early moon exploration by "outpricing" components for deeper solar system missions. 

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Cpt72Bug said:

There is enough science in the first game to get a tech tree from the moon and earth orbit with science station. I think they should incourage early moon exploration by "outpricing" components for deeper solar system missions. 

But isn't the problem that people already never go to the deeper solar system? Why would you want to make it harder?

[Pthigrivi]

Yeah thats tricky because you can actually go all the way to Duna with very low-tier parts, so its not as if thats what's hanging people up. My theory is folks are tending to clean out the zone around Kerbin for two reasons: a) KSP1 doesn't really provide intuitive vanilla tools for planning interplanetary transfers, and b) there's just way too much science in KSOI. It's there, it's easy, and it creates all the incentives in the world for doing a lot of repetitive missions. I've mentioned above ways to reduce that, but another thing that might help is would be taking the experiments out of the tech tree and instead releasing them via boom events. So when you first started playing you'd just have a few basic things--thermometer, barometer, the ability to take surface samples. Instead of buying the next round of experiments in the tech tree they'd be unlocked as a reward for going to orbit. The next round could be released when you first landed on a moon, the next when you set up your first colony or landed on another planet, etc. That way you're not grinding everything out start to finish. You've gated science in a series of layers that allows you to go back to investigate the moon more deeply (say with an anomaly detector) but pushes you to do new things first. 

[Vl3d]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:11 PM, Pthigrivi said:

reduce the total number of large biomes so players weren't incentivised to do 10 different Minmus hops

No need to reduce, just make places more interesting. I never visited biomes for science, I just wanted to find Easter Eggs. Did I mention I hate monoliths?

PS: Simplex Kerbalism is the way!

[Pthigrivi]

6 hours ago, Vl3d said:

No need to reduce, just make places more interesting. I never visited biomes for science, I just wanted to find Easter Eggs. Did I mention I hate monoliths?

PS: Simplex Kerbalism is the way!

The reason I say reduce is its kind of like dropping 50 pies off on someone's front doorstep. They're very unlikely to go to the store for pie any time soon (or Duna in our case), and they're probably going to get sick of pie. It would be better to put more energy into just a few very unique pies. 

[Cpt72Bug]

On 11/5/2022 at 11:35 AM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Love that - would make the educational (and discovery) parts of the game phenomenal.

 

(We know they're not, purposefully, making an educational game.  But KSP turned out to be such - and thus its legacy as an educational game should carry forward into KSP2.  Even if doing so requires a DLC - they really should do Science up right.)

I think they could even get a "minecraft for education" type of deal where they can use this as an educational tool if they do it right. It's not going to be 100 perfect, but really digs down and expands understanding after a few dozen hours. 

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Cpt72Bug said:

I think they could even get a "minecraft for education" type of deal where they can use this as an educational tool if they do it right. It's not going to be 100 perfect, but really digs down and expands understanding after a few dozen hours. 

KSP1 already did sell KSP as an educational tool before:

https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/KerbalEdu

Don't see why KSP 2 shouldn't.  

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Yeah - it's a shoo-in... presuming they do it right.  And that's a fairly safe bet.

[Vl3d]

I strongly agree with the idea of revealing in-game information about celestial objects only through experiments, with interesting graphs, planetary overlays and an in-game Encyclopedia.

I've been playing around with science mods and parts, read the discussion and think I can add something about mini games.

I find that the most interesting science system always introduces interesting and unique minigames for each experiment. Kerbalism, although it has passive science gathering, makes the player think about electricity, mission duration, hard-disk space, transmission speed etc. ScanSat has the maps building mini game and more. Telescope experiments are interesting if you can also control them manually and see orbital / planetary imagery / take photos. DMagic has interesting experiments, Breaking Grounds had good intentions for crew deployable instruments and rovers, orbital science labs are nice, even KerbNet is ok the first time you try it.

The point is that each experiment should be its own cool and unique interactive mini game, rewarding useful information. They should not all be passive. It helps you focus on something else except building, launching and orbital maneuvers.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Vl3d

[zeekzeek22]

It'd be awesome if each science was it's own minigame in a way, but I could understand if that was a major future update (update, not DLC), instead of a launch day feature. That said, they've had plenty of time to brainstorm pseudo-minigame features. I think finding resources will certainly be a minigame, as well as reaching, extracting, and repeating. Colony building. But I agree encyclopedia/science-result-based minigames would be great. We'll see! Imagine a colony interface where once you build buildings and have mining runs, you unlock blocks to drag and drop within a sort of process-building interface (think SpaceChem's entire interface). Great simple puzzle/optimizer.

[Kerbart]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:11 PM, Pthigrivi said:

Yeah it sounds like I'm against the encyclopedia idea, and I'm not. What mean is for science to be worth it for most players you really want this information to be part of the game itself. I think overheat prediction and trajectory prediction are a couple of obvious unlocks. They've also shown a simulator mode that might work from KSC from the beginning, but after you'd dropped a probe with a thermometer and barometer on it through the atmosphere on other worlds you could then test ascents and descents there. The other bit would be precise altimetry and slope mapping from orbit so you could more easily land on level terrain. Biome and radiation scanning could be important, and obviously resource scanning. The flavor text is wonderful, but you really want to also sneak important real science into the game itself.

I see potential here... Atmospheric analysis is required to determine if an atmosphere is breathable or not, and a colony on a planet with breathable atmosphere requires less resources. Automated launches are only available once a pressure profile of the atmosphere has been built, and so on.

Those kind of measurements would require multiple readings (ground stations, sounding rockets, etc, depending on what is measured). And maybe some variance in the test results, requiring multiple readings for a good average (teach some science here).

For it really to work the results should not be predetermined. Maybe Muck has a breathable atmosphere, maybe it doesn't...

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I'm a huge proponent of the 'Kerbilopedia' idea (figured it would give guys like JustJim longevity, if nothing else and be a ton of fun) but I doubt it will be included (if ever) but as a DLC. 

 

I'm fairly confident that they already have a plan for how Science will go - and we just don't know what that will be. 

We've certainly thrown a lot of really good ideas at the wall, but I like to think that Science is largely feature complete at this point and they're just waiting to add that layer of complexity until after they've proofed the fundamentals via Sandbox.  It is the one update I'm looking forward to the most, as 'doing science' was one of the things I enjoyed, even if it was often repetitive... I just liked that aspect of the latter KSP builds.  It gave me something to do beyond landing and planting a flag.  (ISRU was always too frustrating - b/c the very next time I loaded into that body, my rovers and craft had lost their minds).

Someone above suggested that the K-Pedia isn't that hard to do... but without any response from the dev team, I'm not holding my breath.