Belts and rings!

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, tstein said:

If someone went there and POSITIONED  manually each particle already in that orbit, it could stay in that orbit. So  possible? yes.. but would need a very  weird explanation in the abscence of a god

So you think that's the only possible way Dres gained a ring system?

[darthgently]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

So you think that's the only possible way Dres gained a ring system?

Well, a designer did in fact place all those rocks in Dres' rings.  So there is that.

For in-game plausibility I like the idea of alien artifacts at Dres' poles that create an anomalous gravitation field.  Or maybe the equatorial ridge covers a giant ring of artifacts.  The idea being ancients needed a bunch of asteroids nearby for raw material for some reason

Further, gravioli measurement messages should reflect this oddity ideally

[skylifeplays]

I personally feel like Dres had a recent collision with something like a large asteroid or object of some kind. It most likely ripped it apart with tidal forces. This would also explain some of the larger craters, as the formation of a ring would cause a lot of cratering due to small chunks of the newly forming ring falling to the surface from an unstable orbit.

Another possible way is that it simply collected dust from its surroundings due to it being so far out.

(side note - I honestly feel like geology & geography is really underused in ksp and I hope ksp2 science will introduce more anomalies and geological features.)

Edited February 6, 2023 by skylifeplays
forgot to put geography

[tstein]

25 minutes ago, darthgently said:

Well, a designer did in fact place all those rocks in Dres' rings.  So there is that.

For in-game plausibility I like the idea of alien artifacts at Dres' poles that create an anomalous gravitation field.  Or maybe the equatorial ridge covers a giant ring of artifacts.  The idea being ancients needed a bunch of asteroids nearby for raw material for some reason

Further, gravioli measurement messages should reflect this oddity ideally

A gravioly reading anomalous  could indeed be a good thing to include.

33 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

So you think that's the only possible way Dres gained a ring system?

One creating a hypothesis for something to happen are the ones that need to provide the logical framework. As K^2 wrote earlier,  a body created under some extreme conditions like Luna, that has a non homogeneous density could have the non uniform gravitational field needed, but I am not the one trying to find a reasonable condition where a spheric rock solid body this small  could have the gravitational  profile needed to compress the ring. Again, if the ring we get is a toroid and not a ring, then it is ok.

[Ashandalar]

13 minutes ago, tstein said:

That did not stop them  having  planets with moons  to close and too slow to be in stable orbit or  unstable systems like kerbin, mun and minimus (and yes the system is unstable I did  load the game data as precise as I could find in my N-Body simulation and minimus goes  zip away ...

Aziz is referring to KSP2, not KSP1.

You're not wrong about the Kerbolar system being unstable, as Vall would be ejected from Jool's SoI by Laythe and Tylo within a matter of weeks, and Bop eventually follows:

Spoiler

However, Minmus has never been ejected from Kerbin's SoI in any n-body simulation of the system I've ever seen. What timeframe are you talking about? While I've been writing this post, I've been running my own simulation for 100 years into the future (human years, not Kerbal years), and Minmus seems perfectly content.

[tstein]

Just now, Ashandalar said:

Aziz is referring to KSP2, not KSP1.

You're not wrong about the Kerbolar system being unstable, as Vall would be ejected from Jool's SoI by Laythe and Tylo within a matter of weeks, and Bop eventually follows:

  Reveal hidden contents

However, Minmus has never been ejected from Kerbin's SoI in any n-body simulation of the system I've ever seen. What timeframe are you talking about? While I've been writing this post, I've been running my own simulation for 100 years into the future (human years, not Kerbal years), and Minmus seems perfectly content.

In my simulation it took  a couple of years. There is obviously chance that the data I got in tabulated form to feed the simulation are not right. In my simulation the mun, kerbin minumus alignment at the DN and SN of minimus  kept squeezing the orbit   more and more   until  it became a very long ellipsoid that  was rapidly becomming absurd.

[Ashandalar]

18 minutes ago, tstein said:

In my simulation it took  a couple of years. There is obviously chance that the data I got in tabulated form to feed the simulation are not right. In my simulation the mun, kerbin minumus alignment at the DN and SN of minimus  kept squeezing the orbit   more and more   until  it became a very long ellipsoid that  was rapidly becomming absurd.

Here is the raw position and velocity data (derived programmatically from Keplerian orbital elements at runtime) of my initial state if you want to compare:

Spoiler

name: Kerbol, position: { x: 0.0, y: 0.0, z: 0.0 }, velocity: { x: 0.0, y: 0.0, z: 0.0 }
name: Moho, position: { x: -568676230.8252709, y: -6286981001.919948, z: -198406747.54320598 }, velocity: { x: 12055.528767938127, y: -1048.4890000569549, z: -1434.9949236976408 }
name: Eve, position: { x: -9596618668.603903, y: -2555365843.8122225, z: 568132.4366221385 }, velocity: { x: 2779.6005890957244, y: -10439.47778855401, z: -396.13443606572855 }
name: Gilly, position: { x: -9622428286.233139, y: -2572269241.4077587, z: 5346885.8840851635 }, velocity: { x: 2770.8946788329454, y: -10952.993452109893, z: -413.2659446818278 }
name: Kerbin, position: { x: -13599823007.697136, y: 21659825.247473374, z: 0.0 }, velocity: { x: -14.786898444486969, y: -9284.433248198675, z: -0.0 }
name: Mun, position: { x: -13601369141.628683, y: 33559802.972903, z: 0.0 }, velocity: { x: -552.756119722481, y: -9354.330225011328, z: -0.0 }
name: Minmus, position: { x: -13645468805.909271, y: 31725932.44505764, z: 4912696.964371395 }, velocity: { x: -73.79606137606788, y: -9552.122239360511, z: 0.21693518122091465 }
name: Duna, position: { x: 15514867153.117743, y: -15290394870.780588, z: 32847.33960492352 }, velocity: { x: 5016.795239721675, y: 5089.656958766694, z: -7.483819274902993 }
name: Ike, position: { x: 15514265002.735086, y: -15287236595.172003, z: 43871.8459927635 }, velocity: { x: 4715.2101847092545, y: 5041.368535282989, z: -7.652378355594912 }
name: Dres, position: { x: -45885132852.882195, y: -8033714177.560184, z: -4075490922.9146776 }, velocity: { x: 797.5730758503535, y: -4560.6011187234135, z: -0.5672699012317274 }
name: Jool, position: { x: 34304860698.235798, y: 55626283039.55697, z: 164220656.5174359 }, velocity: { x: -3680.6214109386888, y: 2296.3716872108434, z: 98.20325473381551 }
name: Laythe, position: { x: 34277676732.712517, y: 55626326334.23385, z: 164220656.5174359 }, velocity: { x: -3685.7558453072093, y: -927.449274348493, z: 98.20325473381551 }
name: Vall, position: { x: 34331684411.586613, y: 55660085162.36121, z: 164220656.5174359 }, velocity: { x: -5684.958338478043, y: 3886.9155567224407, z: 98.20325473381551 }
name: Tylo, position: { x: 34236360785.11246, y: 55626392136.27136, z: 164220704.11986065 }, velocity: { x: -3683.855887451308, y: 265.50101285372534, z: 97.31712017883645 }
name: Bop, position: { x: 34262726326.34944, y: 55729476904.52479, z: 193411758.35288465 }, velocity: { x: -5302.513465809147, y: 2022.9284787202662, z: 101.51232221639859 }
name: Pol, position: { x: 34316127289.063908, y: 55790029084.12993, z: 176352457.22939798 }, velocity: { x: -5013.151570517072, y: 2590.384128655995, z: 123.49473465498593 }
name: Eeloo, position: { x: -72411124162.1855, y: 86641166586.81154, z: 11977915803.31172 }, velocity: { x: -2117.576790734726, y: -1775.7121800527198, z: 51.80194965053018 }

[Kerbart]

21 hours ago, Ashandalar said:

It was stated on the Discord server that rings won't be collidable to start with:

https://discord.com/channels/1039959585949237268/1039965578754007060/1070409686265909381

I believe rings will only be present at Dres to begin with, so hopefully collisions will be working by the interstellar update, when there will be more interesting ringed bodies.

So only after interstellar, or is this "Dres" the mythical new planet to be added to the Kerbal system?

 

[K^2]

5 hours ago, tstein said:

True the Luna's  aberrational density (probably result of its formation as result of a collision) give it   enough  of what it needs, but dress all alone in middle of nowhere seems a bit more far fetched.

This is why I'm talking about Dress potentially forming in the Jool system, or being captured by Jool, colliding with one of the moons there, and then getting ejected. Alternatively, it could be a rogue capture, formed who knows where. I mean, even without the ring system, Dress doesn't look like it belongs in its current orbit unless it migrated there from somewhere else, whether within the Kerbol system or starting its life in a different system entirely.

Point is, we have plausible scenarios that could explain Dress' gravity not being spherically symmetrical, which would explain narrow rings. These things happen, even if the exact sequence that can lead to Dress existing in Kerbol system being somewhat of a rarity. There are trillions of galaxies of hundreds of billions of stars out there. Kerbol system can be pretty weird, and you'd still find a real life analog somewhere out there, which, I think, is the point. KSP's home system is allowed to be unusual and interesting, because if you're picking a place to set your game and you have more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on Earth, you might as well pick an interesting one.

[mcwaffles2003]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:55 PM, Minmus Taster said:

 It's not like your gonna be trying to fly into them 

Excuse me? O_o

Are you sure you are in the right place?

[Minmus Taster]

31 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Excuse me? O_o

Are you sure you are in the right place?

I was drunk when I posted that 

[mcwaffles2003]

3 minutes ago, Minmus Taster said:

I was drunk when I posted that 

NO EXCUSES! *points to the corner*

A million bonks!

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[Minmus Taster]

Just now, mcwaffles2003 said:

NO EXCUSES! *points to the corner*

A million bonks!

 

Vogon poetry perhaps?

[mcwaffles2003]

1 minute ago, Minmus Taster said:

Vogon poetry perhaps?

too cruel, even for this

[Zozaf Kerman]

1 hour ago, Minmus Taster said:

Vogon poetry perhaps?

I was worried we had lost you! 

[Vl3d]

5 hours ago, Minmus Taster said:

I was drunk when I posted that 

We all kno' how that go'!

[Scarecrow71]

Speaking of belts and rings, there are several things I'd like to see in KSP2:

1. Planetary rings, like we have on Saturn.  Yes, already confirmed.  I still want to see them.  Whether or not they have collision mechanics is beyond the scope of my post; if/when we get that, we will all adjust.
2. Asteroid belt.  We already have the ability in KSP to go out and find asteroids and bring them back home.  Why not have a whole belt of them that we can both bring back home AND set up a mining colony within?
3. Kuiper belt.  I know that this is a catch-all area/term for dwarf planets and frozen volatiles.
4. Hills/Oort cloud.  While theoretical IRL, these areas could very well contain comets and other frozen volaties, similar to what is in the Kuiper belt but ejected into the Hills and/or Oort locations.

One thing I would really like to see, if at all possible, is ramming two asteroids into each other while in orbit of a planet and see if the resultant collision generates a ring-like structure around said planet due to gravity and such.  I know - it's a game, and it probably won't happen, and here are 20,000 RL reasons why.  But, you know. 

[tstein]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Speaking of belts and rings, there are several things I'd like to see in KSP2:

1. Planetary rings, like we have on Saturn.  Yes, already confirmed.  I still want to see them.  Whether or not they have collision mechanics is beyond the scope of my post; if/when we get that, we will all adjust.
2. Asteroid belt.  We already have the ability in KSP to go out and find asteroids and bring them back home.  Why not have a whole belt of them that we can both bring back home AND set up a mining colony within?
3. Kuiper belt.  I know that this is a catch-all area/term for dwarf planets and frozen volatiles.
4. Hills/Oort cloud.  While theoretical IRL, these areas could very well contain comets and other frozen volaties, similar to what is in the Kuiper belt but ejected into the Hills and/or Oort locations.

One thing I would really like to see, if at all possible, is ramming two asteroids into each other while in orbit of a planet and see if the resultant collision generates a ring-like structure around said planet due to gravity and such.  I know - it's a game, and it probably won't happen, and here are 20,000 RL reasons why.  But, you know. 

Rings take  a LOT of time to form. When you collide thigns you get dust cloud.. for it to become a ring you need a NON SPHERICAL  gravity field that will generate ascendign and descending acc the particles tend to collide and lose energy at the middle. In thousands of years they  form a ring that way...   not really feasible in the timeframe of the game.

[Starhawk]

There are lots of places on the internet to bicker with others.  This is not one of them.

Despite the cultural pressure to behave otherwise, those people who hold differing opinions or those who lay out different lines of reasoning are not your enemies.

Reasoned discussion is why these forums exist.  If you find yourself becoming so upset that you want to attack another member please refrain from posting.  If something seems like a personal attack on you, please report the post and move on.  Do not respond.

Some content removed.

Thank you for your understanding,
KSP2 Moderation Team

[Scarecrow71]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:08 AM, tstein said:

In thousands of years they  form a ring that way...   not really feasible in the timeframe of the game.

Considering that at some point we will have interstellar travel, which may take thousands of years, it could be feasible.  I'm not saying it will be, or that we will ever get it.  But it could happen.

[Bej Kerman]

33 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Considering that at some point we will have interstellar travel, which may take thousands of years, it could be feasible.  I'm not saying it will be, or that we will ever get it.  But it could happen.

Interstellar travel will only take a few decades when you have the right engines for the job.