Maneuver Node Maneuver Node Broken - Anyone Else Seeing This?

[Skorj]

The maneuver node / burn timer isn't calculating burns correctly.  Anyone else seeing this?  I did my trans-Mun injection burn, and it was way short, had to keep burning for a minute or so after the node said I was done. 

This is game breaking as far as I'm concerned.  I mean, I liked the early days of KSP where you figured all this out with the Hohmann transfer equation and a calculator, but that's not the game KSP2 was supposed to be.

I'm just so disappointed today with the state of KSP2, between this stuff and the VAB.  I knew it would just be the basic sandbox, but I expected a good sandbox.  Heartbreaking.

 

[Vortygont]

Yes, I had same bugs. I performed 4 minutes burn to Mun, but my ship wasn't on red line and final orbit was another differently. Also I made circulation around the Mun and manevour planner started to show me suborbital trajectory instead of circle orbit which I planned

[dwing]

Can confirm. Timers is saying to shut the engine down way before the desired flight path has been reached.

[Oublic]

I spent 2 hours this morning trying to get a successful rendezvous around Kerbin. Decided to try from flight view instead of Map view. I followed the burn time then went back to map view and found that I would quickly be exiting Kerbin's SOI.

[Cailean_556]

Yeah, the nodes are garbage at the moment. Especially when trying to circularise an orbit or when trying to do a TMI burn. Don't even try to do a rendezvous or docking...

It does work sometimes, but not reliably.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Cailean_556

[Sea_Kerman]

the nodes seem to reset when you swap to map view

 

[G33k]

The maneuver node can not currently be used to plan orbital insertion burns, it burns on the node (which is set to the Apoapsis), this leads to failed burns as they start too late. 
With no indication of the burn time on the HUD the player can't even decide this for themselves. 
Considering the burn time is probably the most important metric in manually executing a burn it's basically impossible to do this accurately.
 

[Sea_Kerman]

Perhaps we would need two different node types, one for the long escape-style torchdrive burns this new maneuver system allows, and one where it centers the burn on the node for precision orbit adjustyness

[Bej Kerman]

34 minutes ago, G33k said:

The maneuver node can not currently be used to plan orbital insertion burns, it burns on the node (which is set to the Apoapsis), this leads to failed burns as they start too late. 
With no indication of the burn time on the HUD the player can't even decide this for themselves. 
Considering the burn time is probably the most important metric in manually executing a burn it's basically impossible to do this accurately.

Have you tried just putting the maneuver earlier in the orbit?

3 minutes ago, Sea_Kerman said:

Perhaps we would need two different node types, one for the long escape-style torchdrive burns this new maneuver system allows, and one where it centers the burn on the node for precision orbit adjustyness

Burning 50% of the burn away from the maneuver node wouldn't have any advantage, and in fact unless you apply the above technique you will have to reduce your eccentricity in a separate maneuver.

[Sea_Kerman]

46 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Have you tried just putting the maneuver earlier in the orbit?

Burning 50% of the burn away from the maneuver node wouldn't have any advantage, and in fact unless you apply the above technique you will have to reduce your eccentricity in a separate maneuver.

I meant a mode that automatically "puts the node earlier" such that half of the burn occurs before and half after the selected point.

[saphera12]

The nodes are seriously broken. 

1.  Nodes resetting

2. Can't view orbital data while editing a node makes it almost impossible to get precise orbits. (Rendezvous, interplanetary transfer.)

3. Can't see remaining delta v info during the burn again makes precise burns difficult. 

4. Can't do small edits to a manuver node with the scroll wheel.

5. Can't advance an node to the next orbit

6. Not exactly a node issues but not being able to see the projected orbit in a secondary body (eg. The Mun) during a transfer means it is very difficult to figure out the direction of your final orbit.

This is a core game mechanic and right now it is extremely limiting.

[Dman979]

Moved to KSP2 Bug Reports.

[Johny5]

2 hours ago, G33k said:

The maneuver node can not currently be used to plan orbital insertion burns, it burns on the node (which is set to the Apoapsis), this leads to failed burns as they start too late. 
With no indication of the burn time on the HUD the player can't even decide this for themselves. 
Considering the burn time is probably the most important metric in manually executing a burn it's basically impossible to do this accurately.
 

This is my number one problem with the game currently.  It makes accurate maneuvers a real chore. I hope this makes it into the first patch. 

[Scarecrow71]

Today I saw this, but while landing on the Mun.  Created a node to change planes and set a landing point, but the burn didn't line up with the maneuver I created.  I have video of this that I'll be posting tomorrow.

[Znander]

6 hours ago, Sea_Kerman said:

the nodes seem to reset when you swap to map view

 

Having the same issue, can hardly get a single node to work right.

[Draradech]

While I agree that it is currently hard to place precisely, the new method (acceleration over distance integrated) is far superior to the old (instantaneous, burn 50%) one, especially with low thrust engines. Planning it this way also allows for the semi on-rails warp during burns, which is another new mostly overlooked feature...

(I still would like to see burn time before starting the burn. Also haven't experimented enough with the new system regarding where it is taking its acceleration values - thrust limiter settings for example.)

Edited February 26, 2023 by Draradech

[Bej Kerman]

11 minutes ago, Draradech said:

While I agree that it is currently hard to place precisely, the new method (acceleration over distance integrated) is far superior to the old (instantaneous, burn 50%) one, especially with low thrust engines. Planning it this way also allows for the semi on-rails warp during burns, which is another new mostly overlooked feature...

Exactly...

Being able to plan an orbit so that at the end of the burn you're in the desired orbit, like in your image, was difficult in KSP 1 and also wouldn't happen if you just put the maneuver in the middle. The only solution for OP's problem is to just plan ahead and use the burn time to your advantage - an option to put the maneuver in the middle would discourage players from properly planning when to start their orbital insertion burns (which is important for ion engines and will be even more so for torch drives). The game should outright encourage players to do this. Just because this wasn't the way it was in KSP 1 doesn't mean the extra thought you put into maneuvers is bad.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

11 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Have you tried just putting the maneuver earlier in the orbit

That is a work around / gamification for experienced players.  If you know you should burn at PE, then the node should be placed at PE. 

The timer should tell the player to start the burn so that the total burn will be centered on the node.  

(I was actually OK with the old workaround of halve the time and start the burn early - but the Dev team wanted to do away with that) 

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

11 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Have you tried just putting the maneuver earlier in the orbit

That is a work around / gamification for experienced players.  If you know you should burn at PE, then the node should be placed at PE. 

This isn't a workaround, it's the best way to do insertion burns if you want to land directly in a low-eccentricity orbit.

19 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The timer should tell the player to start the burn so that the total burn will be centered on the node.

Why should it be centered on the node, besides that just being the thing everyone is used to? The way it is now is intuitive and works. Your node marks the moment your engines come on and your orbit from there reflects the dV input over the course of the burn. It's different from KSP 1, but so what.

21 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

(I was actually OK with the old workaround of halve the time and start the burn early - but the Dev team wanted to do away with that) 

I can absolutely see why they did. The way it is now gives players a better understanding of how the time they choose to start their burn will impact their final orbit. Refer to Draradech's screenshot:

54 minutes ago, Draradech said:

I don't see any reason it should be any reason other than this. It's just another change you'll need to get used to but will ultimately be better than how it was in KSP 1.

I'd imagine a tutorial at some point in the future will counter any "how will players figure this out?" concerns people might have, seeing as understanding this new system is critical even for ion-powered ships.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

This isn't a workaround, it's the best way to do insertion burns if you want to land directly in a low-eccentricity orbit.

Why should it be centered on the node, besides that just being the thing everyone is used to? The way it is now is intuitive and works. Your node marks the moment your engines come on and your orbit from there reflects the dV input over the course of the burn. It's different from KSP 1, but so what.

I can absolutely see why they did. The way it is now gives players a better understanding of how the time they choose to start their burn will impact their final orbit. Refer to Draradech's screenshot:

I don't see any reason it should be any reason other than this. It's just another change you'll need to get used to but will ultimately be better than how it was in KSP 1.

Hey thanks - but I haven't grasped the intuitive part yet. 

My orbital testing has been far less than my just playing around with with Rovers and planes - but space travel hasn't been a great experience, overall.  I've tried to like it (I certainly like the destination!) but the user experience has been frustrating. 

Let me explain where I am coming from and maybe you can help me make the necessary paradigm shift! 

My KSP habit has been to launch, manually do the gravity turn and get the craft to a speed that will result in an AP in space with a considerable horizontal velocity, set up a maneuver node at the AP and get a circularization solution, warp to an appropriate time then KSP the burn (half time calculation, etc). 

The advertised improved node for KSP2 (as I understand it) is that you are supposed to be able to rely on the timer, to start the burn at zero and then stop when it says to.  Every burn I've done like this fails to result in what I've hoped to accomplish.  So, either there is something wrong with the burn timer/node - or my understanding is way off. 

This has been true for circularization, Intercept, capture and landing.  I've got enough experience with KSP that I can fix the errors - but they frustrate. 

Case in point - after manually getting a circular orbit, I spent a bunch of time fiddling with the maneuver node to get an Intercept with Minmus and finally with a good solution ran the burn as the timer told me to.  Ended up with a Kerbin SOI escape velocity.  Took several tries and some manual fudging (based on KSP experience) to resolve the problem and actually get a capture.  Then that node, instead of giving me a PE at around the altitude planned gave me an impact path.  Each time I have been able to manually fix it - but only because I have so many hours in KSP. 

As someone eager to introduce the game to new players - I just can't, yet.  Would not be fair to them or the Dev team. 

So any help understanding what I'm missing would be appreciated! 

[Johny5]

The bottom line is if you place a maneuver node and execute the burn using the exact time from the new timer, the result will be wrong. You don't end up on your planned trajectory unless you ignore the burn timer. Look at your orbit lines at the end of your burn. It doesn't work.

You can eyeball where you start your burn by imagining half of the red line is before the node. Start your burn there, ignore the timers, and end your burn when the white bar below the timers is empty. You'll see that your orbit line will end up exactly as planned. 

[Draradech]

6 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The advertised improved node for KSP2 (as I understand it) is that you are supposed to be able to rely on the timer, to start the burn at zero and then stop when it says to.  Every burn I've done like this fails to result in what I've hoped to accomplish.  So, either there is something wrong with the burn timer/node - or my understanding is way off. 

  

2 minutes ago, Johny5 said:

The bottom line is if you place a maneuver node and execute the burn using the exact time from the new timer, the result will be wrong. You don't end up on your planned trajectory unless you ignore the burn timer. Look at your orbit lines at the end of your burn. It doesn't work.

You can eyeball where you start your burn by imagining half of the red line is before the node. Start your burn there, ignore the timers, and end your burn when the white bar below the timers is empty. You'll see that your orbit line will end up exactly as planned. 

 

These might be the result of another bug I've encountered: the maneuver pointing shifts during the maneuver, so SAS pointing at it results in wrong burns. It has been very accurate for me by letting SAS point at the maneuver, then switch to SAS hold before starting the burn. The example screenshot above was executed that way and ended up on point, despite the relatively long burn. I'll write a separate report for that later if no one else has by then, but I have quite the list to report, and I like to provide screenshots and as detailed descriptions as I can, so it'll take a while.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Draradech

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 minutes ago, Draradech said:

so SAS pointing at it results in wrong burns. It has been very accurate for me by letting SAS point at the maneuver, then switch to SAS hold before starting the burn

That's interesting.  I'll play with it later today! 

On that - I don't see how burn under warp will work - when every SAS prograde hold fails to do so under warp... And then at the end of the warp I watch the ship reorient. 

Easily tested in a circular orbit - just warp 1/4 of the orbit and if the system worked as advertised it should hold prograde through the entire warp. 

But it don't 

[Johny5]

I guess another way you say it is that, in my observations, the maneuver node and planned orbit lines calculate exactly as they did in KSP1. It calculates as though the entire burn was at the node.

[Draradech]

11 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

On that - I don't see how burn under warp will work - when every SAS prograde hold fails to do so under warp... And then at the end of the warp I watch the ship reorient. 

Right. Maneuvers are assumed to have constant pointing. If you execute them as such (with SAS hold) they will be correct (and that will work during warp as well). Prograde changes during burn, but the planned maneuver has a fixed direction. So burning with SAS set to prograde (for prograde-only maneuvers) will also end up wrong.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Draradech