Do you guys feel like this is what the fan patience deserved?

[dok_377]

6 hours ago, 78stonewobble said:

Then why are you even looking forward to ksp2, if you see no redeeming features in ksp1? 

 

And have a rather unrealistic expectation of games and software. Ie. No bugs at all. 

 

I mean, you can't run windows, Linux or android, those have bugs and that's not for you? 

Jesus Christ, nobody is expecting this game to have no bugs at all, especially in EA. But having small bugs here and there is one thing, having to reload the game at least 5 times during a simple mission to the Mun is another. The game in the current state is almost unplayable, even the basics don't work as they should. Literally almost every thing you touch breaks on some way or another. THIS should not be acceptable. The game was clearly not ready for EA, especially with the outrageous price they want everybody to pay for it. 

[MarcAbaddon]

9 minutes ago, dok_377 said:

Jesus Christ, nobody is expecting this game to have no bugs at all, especially in EA. But having small bugs here and there is one thing, having to reload the game at least 5 times during a simple mission to the Mun is another. The game in the current state is almost unplayable, even the basics don't work as they should. Literally almost every thing you touch breaks on some way or another. THIS should not be acceptable. The game was clearly not ready for EA, especially with the outrageous price they want everybody to pay for it. 

Agreed. Of course, it is going to have bugs, but at least a lot of the core gameplay mechanics should be working fine.

If you want to make an analogy to Windows, it would be bugs like windows randomly changing their sizes, programs suddenly de-installing themselves and programs randomly writing into each other's directories combined with windows just getting refreshed once a second. You don't see those kind of bugs even in a Windows beta.

[tstein]

8 minutes ago, MarcAbaddon said:

Agreed. Of course, it is going to have bugs, but at least a lot of the core gameplay mechanics should be working fine.

If you want to make an analogy to Windows, it would be bugs like windows randomly changing their sizes, programs suddenly de-installing themselves and programs randomly writing into each other's directories combined with windows just getting refreshed once a second. You don't see those kind of bugs even in a Windows beta.

Not sicne Windows Millenium at least

[Alexoff]

15 hours ago, DwightLee said:

Yeah and you could not even get into orbit when it first came out

How much was the game then? Who published it? And do I understand correctly that KSP2 still has a very long way to go to become a normal game, since we are now comparing it with the earliest builds of KSP1?

10 hours ago, 78stonewobble said:

Then why are you even looking forward to ksp2, if you see no redeeming features in ksp1?

I expected this from KSP2, but with each new video from the developers, expectations fell lower and lower. I mean, do you agree that the game is like a tech demo? Did you know about this before? Would you advise to postpone the purchase?

10 hours ago, 78stonewobble said:

And have a rather unrealistic expectation of games and software. Ie. No bugs at all.

Yes, I really expected that flying to another planet is not 20 reboots due to a camera that has flown away or a ship breaking down. Do I understand correctly that you blame me for being angry because of the poor quality of the game? Should I praise her or keep quiet? We only talk about dead people at funerals.

 

Here is the 12 hour Stratenblitz stream. I just felt his pain of constant reboots in order to get to Jool. This is some special kind of masochism.

[78stonewobble]

Well, I can only refer to another example of early access, that I loosely base my definition and expectations for an early access release on. 

Allow me to present to you, the earliest access release of KSP1. 

 

"v0.7.3

Released June 24th, 2011

 

Initial Release[2]

Notable Features

Downloaded over 5000 times[3]

No SAS, although SAS module is implemented and generates torque

The only engine, the LV-T30 can only be fed by one FL-T500 attached on its top

The AV-R8 Winglet is just a fin and can't be used to control the vehicle

It is nearly impossible to achieve orbit

Kerbin is the only celestial object, does not rotate, and is a mirror reflection of the example planet from libnoise

The sun is a directional light source at infinite distance

The render distance is only 1500 km, and Kerbin will "sink" into the sky background, vanishing entirely as that altitude is achieved

The original Intercontinental Kraken had not been fixed (Moving far from the KSC will result in shaking and even Rapid Unplanned Disassembly due to floating-point pre cision loss.)" 

 

12 updates or so and about 5-6 months til there was a moon to go to. 

That's about the level of my expectations for early access. 

And it seems that was a bit more accurate than quite a few others. 

[Meecrob]

I'm not sure 0.7.3 is applicable because it was not a commercially available product in early access.

I think a better comparison would be somewhere 0.18-0.21-ish, which are almost a different game when compared to 0.7.3.

[Vanamonde]

The fans were patient? 

[Fullmetal Analyst]

11 hours ago, dok_377 said:

Jesus Christ, nobody is expecting this game to have no bugs at all, especially in EA. But having small bugs here and there is one thing, having to reload the game at least 5 times during a simple mission to the Mun is another. The game in the current state is almost unplayable, even the basics don't work as they should. Literally almost every thing you touch breaks on some way or another. THIS should not be acceptable. The game was clearly not ready for EA, especially with the outrageous price they want everybody to pay for it. 

it is in fact NOT acceptable, the devs just want us to accept it so they can make money off us.

in this EA release they basically confirmed all of our fears, they lied about slaying the kraken, bugs from ksp1 (some of which have actually already been fixed in ksp1) actually carry over to ksp2 which really makes me question the competence of everyone who works on this team...

[Fluke]

14 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

the devs just want us to accept it so they can make money off us.

This is NOT a personal attack against you or your statement but a frustration with these types of statements in general. 

Let's pretend the roughly 1 Million from 25k active players at launch hasn't been refunded one cent. That doesn't "make" anybody any money. All the "devs"/publisher gets is recouping any cost. Yes, it's semantics, but there's a difference when you have investors. 1 Million in payback over the course of so many years of development is absolute peanuts when it comes to Seattle based employee salaries. Trust me, I live here, and I know numerous people in the industry.

I understand that $50 is a bit steep for what was delivered, but it's anyone's choice to buy it, and nobody made me buy it. They can have my money if it helps continue development. 

[Fullmetal Analyst]

2 hours ago, Fluke said:

This is NOT a personal attack against you or your statement but a frustration with these types of statements in general. 

this is a personal attack against the whole ksp fanbase...

 

so here is a list of bugs they officially admit:

graphics quality
fuel flow and dV are "undergoing optimizations" (they are completely broken)
center of lift indicator
arrow keys pan camera

some ksp1 parts not available
"issues with serialization"
trip planner
re-entry heating doesnt exist
no collision on scatter
framerate (big suprise)
"some" UI elements can be "challenging"

source: post from moderator

now here is the list of gamebreaking bugs they are trying to sweep under the rug:

save system completely broken - sometimes it just wont save your game
parts misaligned after loading - rocket wont fly straight anymore
maneuver nodes breaking permanently after launching a few vessels - not even restarting and reloading your save will fix this, you have to revert to an older save if you want working nodes
fuel lines dont work - they leave you with a half-empty main tank after decoupling
acceleration during timewarp doesnt work at all - it just doesnt
lots of other bugs related to timewarp
SAS is almost useless - to rotate heavy craft with lots of fuel you literally have to spam SAS modules everywhere

and thats actually just the small list of bugs i found during a single mission to land on the sun...
they are kinda obvious bugs that everyone will encounter when doing complex missions, i cant believe nobody has encountered them before putting out the EA release
'AND THEY DONT EVEN MENTION OR COMMENT THIS AT ALL

 

2 hours ago, Fluke said:

Let's pretend the roughly 1 Million from 25k active players at launch hasn't been refunded one cent. That doesn't "make" anybody any money. All the "devs"/publisher gets is recouping any cost. Yes, it's semantics, but there's a difference when you have investors. 1 Million in payback over the course of so many years of development is absolute peanuts when it comes to Seattle based employee salaries. Trust me, I live here, and I know numerous people in the industry.

well yeah, 40 devs, average salary is probably 3000 - 6000 € / month, take an average of 4000€ / month,  multiply that by 5 years ... thats about 10 mil just for developer salaries - imagine how furious take two must be rn

i mean they will have to pay these guys for like 2 more years at least until full release xD

Edited February 28, 2023 by Fullmetal Analyst

[Lekiffer]

On 2/26/2023 at 2:24 PM, MarcAbaddon said:

I am on the disappointed but somewhat hopeful side. In order, the reasons for my disappointment are:

1. Devs promised they slew the Kraken. But the physics bugs (wheels, kraken, falling through the ground) are all back, probably even a bit worse than in KSP 1. I get it's hard, but they explicitly promised otherwise.
2. Many parts of the UI feel like the Devs are not playing their own game. A lot of people having written about how bad the maneuvre editor is, and I have to agree.
3. The performance issues are not acceptable. Sure, it's EA and if they were in some specific places it would be ok. But it can't be that just being clear a planet slows everything down so much. 
4. Promised new features such as burning on warp doesn't really work well. The fact that you can't adjust your heading means it isn't usable unless you have a long orbital period.

In summary - it's EA and I accept there are loads of unimplemented features and bugs. But there's really no significant value proposition over KSP 1 in the core parts of the games that are already released, namely flying and building crafts. There are lot of bugs in those parts and the UI for performing critical tasks has become worse. Even in an unpolished state it needs something to show me the extra value over KSP 1.

As for giving useful feedback, the prioritization needs to be:

1. Improve performance around planets. Don't optimize the hell out of it at this stage, but enough to make it more playable. Even give us a low fidelity planet shader if it helps.
2. Give us a usable maneuvre editor.
3. Fix critical bugs with vessels how vessels work, e.g. struts.

If you read the synopsis for Bop it's rumoured the kraken lives there ,after visiting I can confirm the kraken does indeed live there and you should stay well away! 

[Fullmetal Analyst]

8 minutes ago, Fluke said:

I understand that $50 is a bit steep for what was delivered, but it's anyone's choice to buy it, and nobody made me buy it. They can have my money if it helps continue development. 

at this point we should ask ourselves if its actually worth putting money into whats essentially just a buggy mess

[Chris97b]

6 hours ago, 78stonewobble said:

Well, I can only refer to another example of early access, that I loosely base my definition and expectations for an early access release on. 

Allow me to present to you, the earliest access release of KSP1. 

 

"v0.7.3

Released June 24th, 2011

 

Initial Release[2]

Notable Features

Downloaded over 5000 times[3]

No SAS, although SAS module is implemented and generates torque

The only engine, the LV-T30 can only be fed by one FL-T500 attached on its top

The AV-R8 Winglet is just a fin and can't be used to control the vehicle

It is nearly impossible to achieve orbit

Kerbin is the only celestial object, does not rotate, and is a mirror reflection of the example planet from libnoise

The sun is a directional light source at infinite distance

The render distance is only 1500 km, and Kerbin will "sink" into the sky background, vanishing entirely as that altitude is achieved

The original Intercontinental Kraken had not been fixed (Moving far from the KSC will result in shaking and even Rapid Unplanned Disassembly due to floating-point pre cision loss.)" 

 

12 updates or so and about 5-6 months til there was a moon to go to. 

That's about the level of my expectations for early access. 

And it seems that was a bit more accurate than quite a few others. 

It's worth mentioning that at this point KSP was a *free* demo

[RocketRockington]

4 hours ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

well yeah, 40 devs, average salary is probably 3000 - 6000 € / month, take an average of 4000€ / month,  multiply that by 5 years ... thats about 10 mil just for developer salaries - imagine how furious take two must be rn

i mean they will have to pay these guys for like 2 more years at least until full release xD

I know you're in Europe and this is might be upsetting, but the Intercept Games office is in Seattle. 

Average salary for a mid-level developer there is like 11-12k USD per month.  And office space is something like $400 per square meter per month.   Take2 is likely out 40 - 50 million dollars on this just from that.   Add in marketing costs + publisher overhead + non-salary benefits (medical, dental, retirement matching, etc) + outsource fees + licensing fees + a host of other costs... well...  I don't think it ends up quite being a 100 million dollar project, since they're still paying the Squad guys working remote from Mexico city with loose change from the couch. Kidding, but dev salaries in nearly any other location are cheaper, especially outside the US or Europe,

But it's significant money, they need to sell at least 2.5 million full price copies to break even I'd guess - remember Steam takes a 30% cut and that's probably their main sales point, so even 2.5 million sales on steam ends up only being ~85 million USD.

Edited February 28, 2023 by RocketRockington

[78stonewobble]

9 hours ago, Meecrob said:

I'm not sure 0.7.3 is applicable because it was not a commercially available product in early access.

I think a better comparison would be somewhere 0.18-0.21-ish, which are almost a different game when compared to 0.7.3.

It's applicable, because whether we call it early access, alpha testing, beta testing etc. Is irrelevant compared to the development stage, which is about the same. 

And because it was quite clearly possible for other people to have accurate and realistic expectations. 

 

5 hours ago, Chris97b said:

It's worth mentioning that at this point KSP was a *free* demo

 And 5000 choose to deal with the problems of early access. The rest of the, ultimately, 3.995.000 players of the game would choose not to 

I've seen players/gamers/fans beg to be part of early access, beta testers etc. So clearly there's a market. 

Now you can buy your way into early access. 

Be careful what you wish for... 

 

[78stonewobble]

6 hours ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

at this point we should ask ourselves if its actually worth putting money into whats essentially just a buggy mess

Uhm, any consumer should look into what they're buying, before they buy. This should be a reflex.

 

Buyer beware or caveat emptor is hundreds of years old at this point and there's no excuse to become the reason that coffee cups need to warn people that hot coffee is hot. 

[Niroc]

To throw in my two cents. I think that weather or not "fan patience" or what have you is/was deserved will only be answered by if the game is able to achieve all it's stated goals by 1.0 launch and not, as many have worried about, go under and fold for whatever reason. 

In my opinion the game will only be a failure if it never leaves EA and gets shut down prematurely or releases to 1.0 without all of the features stated in their roadmap. Right now the game is still being actively developed so unless something drastic changes in the coming weeks months or even years. I think it should work out.  

Edited February 28, 2023 by Niroc

[mcwaffles2003]

8 hours ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

now here is the list of gamebreaking bugs they are trying to sweep under the rug

Quote

This list is not exhaustive – we are tracking and working on a number of additional issues. If you have non-bug feedback during Early Access, please submit that feedback through the form in the launcher. If you’ve run into a bug (or think you have), please go to support.privatedivision.com

This is being paranoid >.>

There's 10's of pages of user submitted bugs on the forums, were you expecting them to list every bug in a short novel or something? Idk how the devs could have more blatantly shown the game has bugs. They openly stated about bugs before release as you referenced (what studio does even that?), they had streamers record during unrestricted play which showed a bunch of bugs, they releases a minimum specs list beyond any other game to date, and everyone on the forum knew there were going to be lots of bugs

And now people are angry that the game has a lot of bugs, as if no one had the capacity to sit a day and see what the games state is before buying it or getting their money back refunding it after personally verifying the resounding chorus around the interwebs screaming the game has performance issues and bugs.

What more needed to be done to alert the community that this game would have a bunch of bugs on release? I feel like people wouldn't be happy if Nate sat on camera, stared the camera dead on and repeated "the game has bugs" like a mantra for 30 minutes

Edited February 28, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[Niroc]

10 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

This is being paranoid >.>

There's 10's of pages of user submitted bugs on the forums, were you expecting them to list every bug in a short novel or something? Idk how the devs could have more blatantly shown the game has bugs. They openly stated about bugs before release as you referenced (what studio does even that?), they had streamers record during unrestricted play which showed a bunch of bugs, they releases a minimum specs list beyond any other game to date, and everyone on the forum knew there were going to be lots of bugs

And now people are angry that the game has a lot of bugs, as if no one had the capacity to sit a day and see what the games state is before buying it or getting their money back refunding it after personally verifying the resounding chorus around the interwebs screaming the game has performance issues and bugs.

What more needed to be done to alert the community that this game would have a bunch of bugs on release? I feel like people wouldn't be happy if Nate sat on camera, stared the camera dead on and repeated "the game has bugs" like a mantra for 30 minutes

Something to add is that I believe a lot of the Youtubers that attended the big pre release event demo a while back also mentioned that there were indeed some bugs. Off the top of my head I think Scott Manley and  Matt Lowne both mentioned there being plenty of bugs present if not at the demo it's self then certainly in their videos or live streams covering the games release on day 1+

So I doubt that the devs are trying to sweep anything under the rug as if that was the case why let various press get hands on with the game as is for a few hours weeks before release?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Niroc

[TechDragon]

2 hours ago, 78stonewobble said:

I've seen players/gamers/fans beg to be part of early access, beta testers etc. So clearly there's a market. 

Now you can buy your way into early access. 

Be careful what you wish for...

  I was so close to requesting a refund for the game... the first Steam refund I'd ever have requested... because of how frustrating it is to have the game crashing constantly... This is the sort of buggy where you can go get a coffee and find the game somehow crashed while idle in the VAB ... and I know it comes down to how these games get tested...

There's a reason as a fellow developer... even one that's not big on writing tests... I'm appalled at the low standards of testing in the video game industry. Tests that usually consist of humans doing a list of things by hand with all the variability of a human... making reproduction of bugs harder, and making it nearly impossible to catch bugs that slip back in due to merging code or logic pathways that come into or out of use depending on size weight or shape of game objects... Effectively its a loop of "Enough players complain about X happening" -> "Things goes onto the checklist" -> "Tester takes item off the checklist and has <units of time> to try and reproduce the bug, document it, and log it to a real bug tracker" -> "Devs look at real bug tracker and try to fix things logged by testers". This is in stark contrast to more heavily tested environments... where you might run hundreds or thousands of small unit tests on modular functions of code, and for user interfaces (or interactive environments like games) you run scripting harnesses that pretend to push buttons and click icons, and sequence through instances of known user behavior. Sophisticated scripted interaction tools even exist for this in the "complicated" world of video games... but the thing is... it gets used by an appallingly low amount, because having a big build farm constantly running tests costs money, and "tester" is seen as a traditional niche in games industry, from which people can be recruited from the outside allowing it to be a filter for people before risking development or other positions.

All of this is also not accounting for the fact that this is the second version of KSP 2 ... after the questionable stuff that happened between the original dev team Star Theory, and the publishers Take Two, the historical context is available (Original: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/kerbal-space-program-2-release-disrupted-by-corporate-strife Archived for easier reading: https://archive.is/vZQDm ) 

All this to say that KSP2 has a lot of problems... and what stopped me requesting the refund was when I remembered how many KSP1 had and how much of those were fixed by the modding community. While I know I've played stock KSP1, I genuinely think I've had some mods going for about 99% of the time I've ever played KSP1... From Joint Reinforcement to help wobbly physics, to Engineer giving me a better deltaV calculator, mods made KSP1 "playable" for me... made it more "fun"... and KSP2 is just so new the mods don't exist yet. (though I believe someone may have already done one to avoid a bug, I'm not sure I only saw it in passing because I'm busy writing replies and trying to fix a bug with my entire set of vehicle saves) 

[modus]

Disclaimer: I'm playing and somewhat enjoying the game. I'm a believer 

Imho: screw bugs, bugs are normal. The need for optimalisation is normal. What kinda disappointed me, was when I looked at the roadmap before EA, I saw "improved user experience". I just don't think that is what I got (just speaking for myself here) right now.

So  again, I'm not talking about kraken attacks, flying kscs, bad looking clouds, and all of that. Normal in this stage. I'm thinking of things like smooth working maneuver nodes and trajectory stuff, all kinds of readouts and numbers in the vab, a more logical tracking station,...now all of these things could be on a roadmap somewhere, and I believe they are, but it would have been nice if they were there last friday. And I'm not sure why they aren't.

[78stonewobble]

22 minutes ago, TechDragon said:

  I was so close to requesting a refund for the game... the first Steam refund I'd ever have requested... because of how frustrating it is to have the game crashing constantly... This is the sort of buggy where you can go get a coffee and find the game somehow crashed while idle in the VAB ... and I know it comes down to how these games get tested...

There's a reason as a fellow developer... even one that's not big on writing tests... I'm appalled at the low standards of testing in the video game industry. Tests that usually consist of humans doing a list of things by hand with all the variability of a human... making reproduction of bugs harder, and making it nearly impossible to catch bugs that slip back in due to merging code or logic pathways that come into or out of use depending on size weight or shape of game objects... Effectively its a loop of "Enough players complain about X happening" -> "Things goes onto the checklist" -> "Tester takes item off the checklist and has <units of time> to try and reproduce the bug, document it, and log it to a real bug tracker" -> "Devs look at real bug tracker and try to fix things logged by testers". This is in stark contrast to more heavily tested environments... where you might run hundreds or thousands of small unit tests on modular functions of code, and for user interfaces (or interactive environments like games) you run scripting harnesses that pretend to push buttons and click icons, and sequence through instances of known user behavior. Sophisticated scripted interaction tools even exist for this in the "complicated" world of video games... but the thing is... it gets used by an appallingly low amount, because having a big build farm constantly running tests costs money, and "tester" is seen as a traditional niche in games industry, from which people can be recruited from the outside allowing it to be a filter for people before risking development or other positions.

All of this is also not accounting for the fact that this is the second version of KSP 2 ... after the questionable stuff that happened between the original dev team Star Theory, and the publishers Take Two, the historical context is available (Original: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/kerbal-space-program-2-release-disrupted-by-corporate-strife Archived for easier reading: https://archive.is/vZQDm ) 

All this to say that KSP2 has a lot of problems... and what stopped me requesting the refund was when I remembered how many KSP1 had and how much of those were fixed by the modding community. While I know I've played stock KSP1, I genuinely think I've had some mods going for about 99% of the time I've ever played KSP1... From Joint Reinforcement to help wobbly physics, to Engineer giving me a better deltaV calculator, mods made KSP1 "playable" for me... made it more "fun"... and KSP2 is just so new the mods don't exist yet. (though I believe someone may have already done one to avoid a bug, I'm not sure I only saw it in passing because I'm busy writing replies and trying to fix a bug with my entire set of vehicle saves) 

Personally I firmly lean towards not paying to test other people's products for them. Even if it was free, it would be rare that I want to do that work (as it would be for me)

That's me though. 

I have no problem with the option being there for the people that get a kick and fun out of that.  

Especially because that probably does end up giving me a better product in the end. 

[TechDragon]

1 hour ago, 78stonewobble said:

Personally I firmly lean towards not paying to test other people's products for them. Even if it was free, it would be rare that I want to do that work (as it would be for me)

That's me though. 

I have no problem with the option being there for the people that get a kick and fun out of that.  

Especially because that probably does end up giving me a better product in the end. 

Oh absolutely, its why I'm so frustrated by this game. It looks better than it plays and I'm fighting the part of my brain that equates "looks good" with "probably is good". As a developer, I've rushed a polished demo, most of us have, we see how easy people are to convince that something is "just about done" because it can do most of the stuff, like a demo mobile app with everything in memory, without any persistence, or api framework, and completely without a backend service, and like 80% of the work might still remain ahead... but the client looks at the thing they can touch, that you built to evaluate that you understand what they want in terms of interaction, and now your backend guys and gals are in a mad scramble to make anything function because management heard that the UI looked great and ... people were even able to use it to do the things the app is designed to do... and so a deadline gets set. 

In any case, I'm going to try to limit my interaction with this till its more polished, but its going to be a struggle because of how much I want a shinier KSP1, and as a dev I know feedback is valuable, I also know how much feedback they will get so its also hard to think of anything, no matter how much effort I put in, as anything but a waste of my time.

For instance I'm genuinely baffled by some of the serialization weirdness I see in the save files. 

  "ActionType": "None",
  "oabOrientation": "VAB",
  "Assemblies": [
    {
      "assembly": "",
      "Assembly": {
        "Version": "0.1",
        "Guid": {
          "Guid": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
          "DebugName": null
        },

The existence of "assembly": "" and "Assembly": { looks very odd, and almost looks like a default initializer is hardcoded somewhere and populates a lowercase value before the struct is assembled with actual data about a vehicle, and then there is a null guid, which is weird, like guids are built in to C#, its not hard to make one, even a magic one to tag something per build, its so weird to see how many null guid attributes are in the KSP2 save files... it just gives me a bad vibe, the programmer equivalent of hearing an unsettling creaking sound that makes you wonder if a building or vehicle is safe to be inside.

Edited February 28, 2023 by TechDragon

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, TechDragon said:

Oh absolutely, its why I'm so frustrated by this game. It looks better than it plays and I'm fighting the part of my brain that equates "looks good" with "probably is good". As a developer, I've rushed a polished demo, most of us have, we see how easy people are to convince that something is "just about done" because it can do most of the stuff, like a demo mobile app with everything in memory, without any persistence, or api framework, and completely without a backend service, and like 80% of the work might still remain ahead... but the client looks at the thing they can touch, that you built to evaluate that you understand what they want in terms of interaction, and now your backend guys and gals are in a mad scramble to make anything function because management heard that the UI looked great and ... people were even able to use it to do the things the app is designed to do... and so a deadline gets set. 

In any case, I'm going to try to limit my interaction with this till its more polished, but its going to be a struggle because of how much I want a shinier KSP1, and as a dev I know feedback is valuable, I also know how much feedback they will get so its also hard to think of anything, no matter how much effort I put in, as anything but a waste of my time.

For instance I'm genuinely baffled by some of the serialization weirdness I see in the save files. 

  "ActionType": "None",
  "oabOrientation": "VAB",
  "Assemblies": [
    {
      "assembly": "",
      "Assembly": {
        "Version": "0.1",
        "Guid": {
          "Guid": "00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000",
          "DebugName": null
        },

The existence of "assembly": "" and "Assembly": { looks very odd, and almost looks like a default initializer is hardcoded somewhere and populates a lowercase value before the struct is assembled with actual data about a vehicle, and then there is a null guid, which is weird, like guids are built in to C#, its not hard to make one, even a magic one to tag something per build, its so weird to see how many null guid attributes are in the KSP2 save files... it just gives me a bad vibe, the programmer equivalent of hearing an unsettling creaking sound that makes you wonder if a building or vehicle is safe to be inside.

Report it as a bug.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Vl3d

[TechDragon]

19 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Report it as a bug.

I would if I had any basis to assume it was one, and not just weird quirks of how they built the game... I've seen weirder things in software state serialization output before. This is "weird" sure, and now I know its on my mental list of things to keep an eye on, like the null guids and possible guid conflicts causing issues... 

But without more, it feels like it just wouldn't be a helpful bug report, know what I mean?