KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Superfluous J]

59 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

And now the creators of KSP2 haven’t made the same mistakes that was made in KSP1? As I noticed, we managed to see something that was not in KSP1 - broken anti-aliasing, spam to the registry, calculation of all parts in the universe. Without any rush

So we've seen human beings make mistakes. I wish I could go through life without it too but sadly it happens. Far, far too often.

[airless2112]

10 hours ago, Periple said:

I think it’s much more likely that they had a solution in place and it was “almost working.” They kept trying to make it completely work but kept running into issues. Finally a more experienced engineer stepped in and determined that there was a fundamental design flaw and all the attempts to fix it had turned the code into spaghetti and they need to start over.

It’s really common for developers to spin their wheels like that, and it’s surprisingly hard to create a culture where somebody steps in relatively early to end the “just a few more days” thing which can otherwise stretch into weeks, then months. 

 

"Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield. We’re still buttoning down our heat transfer, ablation, and occlusion systems. Vapor cone visual effects are also still in-progress.."

I get what you're saying.  Problems can be tricker than expected, things can take longer than planned, unforeseen complications, etc.   If these situations are known to happen then maybe using language like "brief window" is misleading. 

The hypthetical situation you describe doesn't also really work here.  I mean, if halfway through development somebody spots a fundamental design flaw, they clearly didn't have solution in place that "almost worked."  A fundamental design flaw suggests a conceptual problem from the get-go, not something that unexpectedly pops up when you're mostly finished and are "buttoning down" outstanding details.

Statements like the above might not be even be intentonally misleading, but the end result is still the same.  People feel misled.  A lot of good will and benefit-of-the-doubt has been squandered.   I hope they things turn around.  

 

[Quasar2007]

43 minutes ago, airless2112 said:

Statements like the above might not be even be intentionally misleading, but the end result is still the same.  People feel misled.  A lot of good will and benefit-of-the-doubt has been squandered.   I hope they things turn around.  

 

You are right, they should definitely think twice before making a statement and misleading their players. And with that they lose fans and the fans that remain unfortunately lose hope .

I really do hope that things will take a turn for the better and that we will be playing the awesome product that we were promised, I really do want to go interstellar and explore different systems, outside of the SOI of Kerbol and I think many other players that are left do as well.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Quasar2007

[Alexoff]

42 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

So we've seen human beings make mistakes. I wish I could go through life without it too but sadly it happens. Far, far too often.

This is similar to the phrase “KSP2 is not perfect” that is often mentioned here. The number of people who make mistakes is enormous, including both geniuses and mediocrities. Just like the number of non-perfect games completely covers all games, from hl2 to E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial. Vague as IG CM posts

[cocoscacao]

3 hours ago, regex said:

Couple of years at least.

Damn. I don't wanna see this game being rushed either, but I hope that, when major bugs are ironed out, development will go faster.

[regex]

8 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Damn. I don't wanna see this game being rushed either, but I hope that, when major bugs are ironed out, development will go faster.

It probably will, I just believe in tempering my expectations, especially if I'm following a dev house that appears to be doing their best to avoid crunch and be nice to their employees.

[didkodidko]

X

[NH4Cl Enthusiast]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I have, back in February. Now some things may have taken longer than expected, I admit that "soon" is an extremely vague term. But since the list hasn't changed much aside from a couple of new parts so far, it's still very much up to date.

 

Your own post has a list of almost 20 features in pre-1.0 KSP1 that are missing from KSP2, number of them significant game features like resources, asteroids, funds, missions, kerbal experience and heating and yet you claim KSP2 has the same features? 

If basic logic is out the window then I guess KSP2 has truly found it's audience.

Edited October 13, 2023 by NH4Cl Enthusiast

[Alexoff]

8 minutes ago, NH4Cl Enthusiast said:

Your own post has a list of almost 20 features in pre-1.0 KSP1 that are missing from KSP2, number of them significant game features like resources, asteroids, funds, missions, kerbal experience and heating and yet you claim KSP2 has the same features?

...and you will see these features!

In fact, most of the positive reviews of KSP2 (almost half of all reviews) are written for an imaginary game where all promised features will be, and in memory of how fun it was to play KSP1.

[PDCWolf]

3 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Damn. I don't wanna see this game being rushed either, but I hope that, when major bugs are ironed out, development will go faster.

How can something be inexplicably 3 years behind schedule but also rushed? wot.

[cocoscacao]

42 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

How can something be inexplicably 3 years behind schedule but also rushed? wot.

Unrealistic estimations... This is a physics simulator after all...

[Alexoff]

It is worth noting that 1.0 was supposed to be released in the spring of 2020, not 0.1. So the game was postponed not for 3, but for at least 4 years. Apparently the rush was in the wrong direction

[The Aziz]

3 hours ago, NH4Cl Enthusiast said:

Your own post has a list of almost 20 features in pre-1.0 KSP1 that are missing from KSP2, number of them significant game features like resources, asteroids, funds, missions, kerbal experience and heating and yet you claim KSP2 has the same features? 

Read it again please, your math is off. And then below there's another list of features that are in KSP2 from day 1, but weren't in the first game for a long time, or ever.

And you know well that funds are not planned and heating wasn't in the first game until 1.0 (and the first iteration was so buggy that it needed a bunch of hotfixes).

[regex]

32 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

(and the first iteration was so buggy that it needed a bunch of hotfixes).

Man, that was literally one of the best parts of KSP 1.0, having to dissipate nuclear engine heat. I don't care how unrealistic it was, it was fun!

[airless2112]

"And you know well that funds are not planned and heating wasn't in the first game until 1.0 (and the first iteration was so buggy that it needed a bunch of hotfixes)."

Yeah, OK.  This isn't really comparable to KSP1.   KSP1 was buggy and needed hotfixes and didn't have heat in 1.0. 

That was a a handful of amateur indie developers working in a Mexico City ad agency.  And it cost like $12 for the game and all lifetime DLC.  This is an in-house developer backed by an AAA publisher.   Charging a AAA price for EA.  Expectations are higher.   

[regex]

58 minutes ago, airless2112 said:

And it cost like $12 for the game and all lifetime DLC

Which was genuinely one of the dumbest things I've seen in gaming. Seriously. I mean, sure, Squad may not have known what they had when they started but still, they left So. Much. Money. On. The. Table. and watching them try to claw it back later, and the community backlash, was absolutely hilarious at the time.

[Periple]

9 hours ago, airless2112 said:

The hypthetical situation you describe doesn't also really work here.  I mean, if halfway through development somebody spots a fundamental design flaw, they clearly didn't have solution in place that "almost worked."  A fundamental design flaw suggests a conceptual problem from the get-go, not something that unexpectedly pops up when you're mostly finished and are "buttoning down" outstanding details.

It happens more often than you’d expect. The dev chat we had about it talked a lot about the importance of making it scale. Perhaps the original solution just didn’t and all attempts to make it so failed.

9 hours ago, airless2112 said:

Statements like the above might not be even be intentonally misleading, but the end result is still the same.  People feel misled.  A lot of good will and benefit-of-the-doubt has been squandered.

Indeed. That’s why I think they ought to just stop saying things and focus on delivering. Of course then people would complain about communication but they already are, so that wouldn’t be any worse either!

[airless2112]

57 minutes ago, regex said:

Which was genuinely one of the dumbest things I've seen in gaming. Seriously. I mean, sure, Squad may not have known what they had when they started but still, they left So. Much. Money. On. The. Table. and watching them try to claw it back later, and the community backlash, was absolutely hilarious at the time.

Ha, it was a dumb decision from Squad.  Lolhilarious.  Squad was so dumb lol.  Money on the table lol.

How's that relevant here?  What is the point that you think you're making?

The point that I was making is that you can't really compare KSP2's development to KSP1.  Saying that KSP2's defiiciences are understandable or OK because KSP1's development was also troubled doesn't add up.

Also, it's easier to accept some janky problems in a cheap indie game as opposed to a professionally developed game.  That was the point I was making re: price.

One of the main draws of KSP2 is that it would avoid the pitfalls the KSP1 guys experienced.  Actual professional AAA developers could take the lessons the KSP1 amateur guys learned and do an AAA job on a worthy successor.  Improving on the existing game and iterating and evolving and making something better.   Overcoming limitaitons that the old game had.  We all wanted this, we were psyched for this.  We're currently seeing Unity joint problems that plagued us a decade ago.  This doesn't seem like an evolution. 

I'm trying to not just be a negative excrementsposter here.  I really want it to be good.  I think KSP2 has great sound, good art assets, and the UI people really streamlined things in a way that I think is a real improvement on he old game.   There are clearly people working on this that put a lot of work and care into it.  It's just disappointing and at this rate you've gotta wonder if Take 2 pulls the plug before any of the roadmap stuff comes to fruition.

Edited October 14, 2023 by airless2112

[airless2112]

21 minutes ago, Periple said:

It happens more often than you’d expect. The dev chat we had about it talked a lot about the importance of making it scale. Perhaps the original solution just didn’t and all attempts to make it so failed.

Indeed. That’s why I think they ought to just stop saying things and focus on delivering. Of course then people would complain about communication but they already are, so that wouldn’t be any worse either!

Sure!  Let's focus on what they deliver versus what they say.   OK.  What's been delivered thus far?

Let's be charitable.  Even if they're not intentionally deceiving us, saying stuff like "a brief window" is demonstrably inaccurate.  So lies or just incompetence, take your pick.  Either way, they've lost our trust.

Edited October 14, 2023 by airless2112

[regex]

14 hours ago, airless2112 said:

I'm trying to not just be a negative excrementsposter here.  I really want it to be good.

[snip] 99% of you should have just got a refund, left a negative review, and walked away, but because you "want it to be good" you're here grousing about Intercept being incompetent day and night and trying to, what, turn public opinion against them? Put pressure on them to crunch? Say sorry? None of that makes the game better. Only concerted, dedicated development, a process that takes time, will do that.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Periple]

59 minutes ago, airless2112 said:

One of the main draws of KSP2 is that it would avoid the pitfalls the KSP1 guys experienced.  Actual professional AAA developers could take the lessons the KSP1 amateur guys learned and do an AAA job on a worthy successor.

KSP2 isn’t close to AAA, an AAA studio would be about 10 times bigger than IG. Also AAA is no guarantee of smooth development, AAA games are delayed all the time and often fail spectacularly — Cyberpunk, Mass Effect: Andromeda, Anthem, the current woes around Dragon Age: Dread Wolf, the list goes on.

About the only games that are consistently produced at a high level of polish and predictability are franchises that iterate on and gradually evolve a formula. There’s a new FIFA game every year and it’s just like the old one, same for Assassin’s Creed, some racing games, and so on.

And then there’s Nintendo of course. I’m damned if I know how they do it!

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

Sure!  Let's focus on what they deliver versus what they say.   OK.  What's been delivered thus far?

A full-featured sandbox space game.

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

Let's be charitable.  Even if they're not intentionally deceiving us, saying stuff like "a brief window" is demonstrably inaccurate.  So lies or just incompetence, take your pick.  Either way, they've lost our trust.

No argument there, they way overhyped the initial release and were way too optimistic about their progress!

[airless2112]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

Yes.  Lett's re-litigate A's.  Let's really drill down, genius.  

It's not  an AAA game!  Lower your expectations.   So, AA?  A?  How many A's are acceptable for you?

I mean a big billion dollar publisher took over the IP.   They set  up an in-house developer just for this project.  

We should assume an actual dev house can outpeform a weirdo nerd in Mexico City and his friends... right?   They've got an absurdly greater level of resources and expertise at their disposal, right? 

Saying KSP2 development  is slow  because KSP1 had problems laughable.  Apples to organges, a fake comparison.

 

 

1 hour ago, Periple said:

 

1 hour ago, Periple said:

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by airless2112

[Periple]

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

Yes, AAA games often fail.  So our failure is OK.  Brilliant.  Galaxy-mind.

Of course it’s OK to fail! If it wasn’t, nobody would ever attempt anything worth doing!

[Periple]

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

It's not  an AAA game!  Lower your expectations.   So, AA?  A?  How many A's are acceptable for you?

The definitions are a bit fluid but I think most people would say AA. It’s a small studio, bigger than a shoestring indie but still quite small.

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

I mean a big billion dollar publisher took over the IP.   They set  up an in-house developer just for this project.

Private Division is a largely autonomous subsidiary of T2. They operate like a small publisher and can’t draw on T2’s resources just because they want to.

1 hour ago, airless2112 said:

We should assume an actual dev house can outpeform a weirdo nerd in Mexico City and his friends... right?   They've got an absurdly greater level of resources and expertise at their disposal, right?

You might assume that but empirically it just isn’t true. It usually takes a decade or more for a studio to figure out how to deliver consistently and at high quality. This is true regardless of the skill level of the developers it initially hires.

One of the paradoxes is that the bigger the team the more complicated it gets to manage, and until you’ve got it figured out, you keep running into new snafus. This also makes it really hard to predict your velocity until you have a couple of projects to give you historical data. It’s especially hard if you start from scratch or expand fast.

(Edit: certain things are easier to scale than others of course. Like you can make more higher -quality assets faster by hiring more qualified artists. KSP2 has a lot of assets and they’re very good. Design and engineering are much more difficult to scale!)

Edited October 14, 2023 by Periple

[airless2112]

2 hours ago, Periple said:

KSP2 isn’t close to AAA, an AAA studio would be about 10 times bigger than IG. Also AAA is no guarantee of smooth development, AAA games are delayed all the time and often fail spectacularly — CyberpunkS, Mass Ef

2 hours ago, Periple said:

Wait a sec.  I'm new.  If this forum mostly just you two guys?   That makea a lot more sense.

I get it now.  Thanks moeggz.  I post on SA sometimes.

it's just these guys, huh?