KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Scarecrow71]

28 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Btw, we're on our way to 9 months... this is still the state of docking:

https://streamable.com/e31wah

At least you can attempt to dock.  I opened a bug report because switching between vessels that target one another causes them to spin uncontrollably.  Go watch the video in the bug report.

 

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

dare I say way smoother than KSP 1 when it comes to low thrust gameplay particularly.

Ah yes, specially with the SAS wobbling your craft all over and the phantom forces from reaction wheels being huge.

Those are not issues I've seen people discuss, let alone experienced myself.

[PDCWolf]

28 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Those are not issues I've seen people discuss, let alone experienced myself.

Spoiler

 

 

[Spicat]

3 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

May I know what you call nonsensical placements? You mean the navball and vital information such as speed right in the center as it exists on almost every plane or spacecraft cockpit? Again, altitude I give to you, that's bad.

Real life UI and game UI are not the same thing though.

And you can't convince me that navball at the center was a good choice in ksp1, it was just blocking your view, they made a good decision by moving it to the side. Maybe if your screen is an ultrawide I can understand you complaining and that's why them giving the option to move it would be a good thing (which they said they will), but saying that it's bad is just nostalgia over ksp1 (or bad faith).

I'm not playing MSFS, but all I'm seeing from the UI is not something blocking your view at the center of the screen:

(Obviously not talking about the cockpit view because we don't have that yet)

[PDCWolf]

11 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Real life UI and game UI are not the same thing though.

And you can't convince me that navball at the center was a good choice in ksp1, it was just blocking your view, they made a good decision by moving it to the side. Maybe if your screen is an ultrawide I can understand you complaining and that's why them giving the option to move it would be a good thing (which they said they will), but saying that it's bad is just nostalgia over ksp1 (or bad faith).

I'm not playing MSFS, but all I'm seeing from the UI is not something blocking your view at the center of the screen:

(Obviously not talking about the cockpit view because we don't have that yet)

Nothing I hate more than the external camera UI in MSFS. The whole UX of MSFS is really bad, yet it still replicates some of the lessons I mentioned: All the *tapes have useful information in them other than just a moving tape.

You can also see that this UI lacks the artificial horizon, which is the object that should take the center (in place of the navball, which is almost a complete analogue).

"Real life UI" on things like airliners and fighters is made to be as functional as possible whilst not cluttering the view. Game UIs don't follow that because... reasons.

[Spicat]

3 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

"Real life UI" on things like airliners and fighters is made to be as functional as possible whilst not cluttering the view. Game UIs don't follow that because... reasons.

Because you have a limited screen view, very much different from your eyes which can see a lot more than what's on a screen (and that's why ultrawide are popular).

The navball at the center do clutter the view, especially when you're trying to land on ksp, in real life you don't have a third person camera so that's why you won't see it.

I see no reason to place it at the center, you generally don't have such a narrow view that placing it at the center has to be necessary.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Those are not issues I've seen people discuss, let alone experienced myself.

That is simply flat-out incorrect.  In my own thread that PDCWolf linked to above you commented multiple times.  So to say that you have not seen people discuss SAS issues is not only incorrect, but you have been part of the discussion on at least one thread talking about it.

[PDCWolf]

2 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Because you have a limited screen view, very much different from your eyes which can see a lot more than what's on a screen (and that's why ultrawide are popular).

The navball at the center do clutter the view, especially when you're trying to land on ksp, in real life you don't have a third person camera so that's why you won't see it.

I see no reason to place it at the center, you generally don't have such a narrow view that placing it at the center has to be necessary.

In KSP1: Middle mouse click, drag down. There you go, and you get to keep the navball where it should be. In KSP2 the problem is they made the navball at least twice as big as it needs to be when you include all the elements randomly thrown with huge spaces and unnecessary tapes around it.

Having it at the center means the picture of the craft is closer on your peripheral vision as well. Good luck handling that on bigger resolutions.

[Bej Kerman]

10 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Nothing I hate more than the external camera UI in MSFS.

You hate it because there's not a navball blocking you from seeing the aircraft?

[PDCWolf]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

You hate it because there's not a navball blocking you from seeing the aircraft?

No, I hate it because it goes against everything you learn on the cockpit of an aircraft. You center your view to see the instruments and have all the information at a glance, you look around to see outside and assess your situation. Really, just check pretty much any cockpit. Even in fighters they invented the hud and later on JCHMD so you can keep the information right in your face where it needs to be. 

[Spicat]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

In KSP1: Middle mouse click, drag down. There you go, and you get to keep the navball where it should be. In KSP2 the problem is they made the navball at least twice as big as it needs to be when you include all the elements randomly thrown with huge spaces and unnecessary tapes around it.

Having it at the center means the picture of the craft is closer on your peripheral vision as well. Good luck handling that on bigger resolutions.

As I said, they do plan to give you the option to move it so saying you can move it in ksp1 is irrelevant.
Even on bigger resolution, having it at the center is bad, offsetting to the side will always be best.

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

In KSP1: Middle mouse click, drag down. There you go, and you get to keep the navball where it should be.

Isn't that lovely, now whatever was in front of the craft (like maybe a space station you're docking with) is offscreen and your vertical field of view is effectively reduced. Let's face it, the middle of the screen is an awful place to put it and if KSP 1 didn't have its awful layout set in sone then you wouldn't need to suggest a workaround as janky as "just offset the camera and cut out whatever was in front of the vessel"

Just now, PDCWolf said:

You center your view to see the instruments and have all the information at a glance

You look at the bottom left corner to see your instruments and you look at the middle of the screen to assess the situation. That's how it works in 3rd person.

2 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Even on bigger resolution, having it at the center is bad

Haha, speaking of resolution, I was watching Matt Lowne play the console edition and it is absurd what a badly placed navball and large UI scale does. The developers clearly have small monitors and accessibility in mind here which I appreciate. If it was layed out like in KSP 1 you could expect to see the entire bottom middle third of the screen wasted.

[PDCWolf]

5 minutes ago, Spicat said:

As I said, they do plan to give you the option to move it so saying you can move it in ksp1 is irrelevant.
Even on bigger resolution, having it at the center is bad, offsetting to the side will always be best.

Which of course is going to be an issue if they keep it as such a useless waste of space. At least I hope they make it moddable so people with real training in flight interfaces can get a crack at it, unlike KSP1.

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Isn't that lovely, now whatever was in front of the craft (like maybe a space station you're docking with) is offscreen and your vertical field of view is effectively reduced. Let's face it, the middle of the screen is an awful place to put it and if KSP 1 didn't have its awful layout set in sone then you wouldn't need to suggest a workaround as janky as "just offset the camera and cut out whatever was in front of the vessel"

Lmao, instead of dragging down drag to the side then. You can drag the view on all axis on KSP1 with the middle mouse, no need to remember half the numpad from memory.

Gotta love the cope-bashing.

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

You look at the bottom left corner to see your instruments and you look at the middle of the screen to assess the situation. That's how it works in 3rd person.

Which means the craft picture is further on your peripheral vision and thus less clear. A brazilian man working on an indie project after 8 hours in the office got it right after starting the wrong way:

 

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Isn't that lovely, now whatever was in front of the craft (like maybe a space station you're docking with) is offscreen and your vertical field of view is effectively reduced. Let's face it, the middle of the screen is an awful place to put it and if KSP 1 didn't have its awful layout set in sone then you wouldn't need to suggest a workaround as janky as "just offset the camera and cut out whatever was in front of the vessel"

Lmao, instead of dragging down drag to the side then.

That's still awful and clunky compared to just moving the navball. What do you have against being able to see the entire middle third of your screen?

3 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Gotta love the cope-bashing.

Yes, sure, you suggest having to pan using MMB to account for the reduced space which would be distracting to have to do when going between situations where you need to see the top of the rocket vs the bottom (e.g. docking vs landing), and I suggest simply keeping the navball to the left so that there's no need to do that in the first place, and in your world the latter solution is an affront to humanity.

5 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Which means the craft picture is further on your peripheral vision and thus less clear

That's why your eyeball is capable of moving around inside your skull. The entire reason the altitude move debate happened is because people wanted everything concise so that only one movement of the eyeball was needed to have both the alt and spd within the center of vision. Unless you have severe tunnel vision, the reduced field of view from a centered navball is way worse than the craft being slightly less clear when looking at the navball. Even then, I think you're exaggerating the cloudiness of peripheral vision for the sake of arguing against the navball being offset.

[regex]

49 minutes ago, Spicat said:

And you can't convince me that navball at the center was a good choice in ksp1, it was just blocking your view, they made a good decision by moving it to the side.

Literally the first thing I did when KSP1 added the ability to move the navball was shove it all the way over to the left. KSP2 having that as default is a good UX choice IMO.

[Meecrob]

50 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Real life UI and game UI are not the same thing though.

And you can't convince me that navball at the center was a good choice in ksp1, it was just blocking your view, they made a good decision by moving it to the side. Maybe if your screen is an ultrawide I can understand you complaining and that's why them giving the option to move it would be a good thing (which they said they will), but saying that it's bad is just nostalgia over ksp1 (or bad faith).

I'm not playing MSFS, but all I'm seeing from the UI is not something blocking your view at the center of the screen:

(Obviously not talking about the cockpit view because we don't have that yet)

The difference is you can fly a plane with reference to Visual Flight Rules. You can see your movement relative to another object (the Earth). In KSP, you have no reference other than the skybox.

[PDCWolf]

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's still awful and clunky compared to just moving the navball. What do you have against being able to see the entire middle third of your screen?

Again, that is still informed by the current, uselessly big navball. It shouldn't take a third of your screen.

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Yes, sure, you suggest having to pan using MMB to account for the reduced space which would be distracting to have to do when going between situations where you need to see the top of the rocket vs the bottom (e.g. docking vs landing), and I suggest simply keeping the navball to the left so that there's no need to do that in the first place, and in your world the latter solution is an affront to humanity.

You can pan, zoom, and even tilt the camera with the hand you already have on the mouse, there's not a single situation where the navball would leave you blind because you have the tools to fix the camera to your liking and specific to the situation you want. For me, that's way preferable to losing sight of the craft to look at the corner of my screen.

8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's why your eyeball is capable of moving around inside your skull. 

Rude, probably ableist too.

8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The entire reason the altitude move

I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm for moving the altitude from the top of the screen in KSP1.

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Unless you have severe tunnel vision

Again, kinda rude, definitely ableist. Yo do not know how good or bad my vision is. Go forbid games go for accessibility trying to keep UIs compact and not all over the place.

 

 

[Meecrob]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

Literally the first thing I did when KSP1 added the ability to move the navball was shove it all the way over to the left. KSP2 having that as default is a good UX choice IMO.

Its a personal preference, but I wager that people with a background as a pilot prefer the navball front and centre.

I'm not telling you or others how to play the game, but it is established fact that every aircraft/spacecraft has this instrument as in your face as possible.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Meecrob

[regex]

1 minute ago, Meecrob said:

Its personal preferences, but I wager that people with a background as a pilot prefer the navball front and centre.

Probably but I'd wager that particular UX choice was based on data gathered from players. Moving UI elements around would be nice though.

[Spicat]

6 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

The difference is you can fly a plane with reference to Visual Flight Rules. You can see your movement relative to another object (the Earth). In KSP, you have no reference other than the skybox.

I don't see how that's an argument for or against navball at the center. If you don't look at anything other than the navball in space then if it's at the center or to the side is irrelevant.

And cases where you don't look at only your navball is when you're flying a plane or landing, thus it's exactly the same thing.

5 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

Its personal preferences, but I wager that people with a background as a pilot prefer the navball front and centre.

I think people prefer it because it's muscle memory (and nostalgia) from ksp1, if it was at the side since the start, I think very few people would have put it at the center.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Spicat

[Meecrob]

11 minutes ago, Spicat said:

I don't see how that's an argument for or against navball at the center. If you don't look at anything other than the navball in space then if it's at the center or to the side is irrelevant.

Edit: Having the navball closer to where you are looking speeds up your scan. you should be cycling through navball, altimiter, etc. as fast as you can. It also helps if when you are looking at the navball, the visual representation of your craft is in your close peripheral vision. With the navball at the side, its further from your centre of focus. Again, its personal preference, but there is a reason for the navball to be in an "annoying" place...its supposed to be.

13 minutes ago, regex said:

Probably but I'd wager that particular UX choice was based on data gathered from players. Moving UI elements around would be nice though.

I agree on the movable UI, for sure.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Meecrob

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

Again, that is still informed by the current, uselessly big navball. It shouldn't take a third of your screen.

The navball can be smaller but it's still way better to the left and that would still be way more efficient, especially with a scaled up UI. As far as I'm concerned, you telling me that the navball can be less cluttered then immediately suggesting that the player should also have to distract themself with the pan while still contending with a much reduced vertical FOV is nothing more than doublethink because you're so nostalgic for how it was in KSP 1.

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

You can pan, zoom, and even tilt the camera with the hand you already have on the mouse

Having to focus on all 3 at the same time for the sake of the navball placement is ridiculous.

4 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

13 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Unless you have severe tunnel vision

Again, kinda rude, definitely ableist. 

That's a massive stretch, but whatever, let me supplement my last statement. If you have tunnel vision, there are solutions that are a million times better and not nearly as hideous as moving the navball to the center so that it obstructs the bottom of your view.

[Meecrob]

4 minutes ago, Spicat said:

I think people prefer it because it's muscle memory (and nostalgia) from ksp1, if it was at the side since the start, I think very few people would have put it at the center.

I do not mean this to come across as mean, but just because you prefer something does not make it superior. There is a reason this instrument is front and centre in all air/spacecraft. I guarantee you, you will be able to fly better if you focus on the navball as opposed to the visual of your craft.

[Mikki]

...my station doesn`t fit the screen anymore... i need a homecinema to see the shuttle on it...

Spoiler

 

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

There is a reason this instrument is front and centre in all air/spacecraft

Because real life does not come with a 3rd person view. In KSP 2, there is a 3rd person view and that negates the need for the navball to be in the middle.