KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Spicat]

3 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

I do not mean this to come across as mean, but just because you prefer something does not make it superior. There is a reason this instrument is front and centre in all air/spacecraft. I guarantee you, you will be able to fly better if you focus on the navball as opposed to the visual of your craft.

Again, real life and a game is not the same thing, especially since we are talking about a third person view, the cockpit that is modeled in ksp2 also have a navball at the center.

And reminder that your altitude is based on your command pod, so you can't really see how high the bottom of your craft is from the ground by just looking at the navball.

[Meecrob]

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because real life does not come with a 3rd person view. In KSP 2, there is a 3rd person view and that negates the need for the navball to be in the middle.

You can argue me all you want, this isn't my opinion. There is a saying in aviation: learn from others; you don't have enough lives to make enough mistakes to learn from experience yourself"

I get that your personal preference is the navball on the side, I'm simply telling you the real-life reason navballs are shoved in your face.

[Pthigrivi]

No hate on others preferences but I do find the corner nav ball much more usable. The really critical moments in most missions are ascents and landings, and you almost always have a vessel thats taller than it is wide so that vertical real estate in the center of the screen is a key factor to optimize for. Especially on landings you're looking at the orientation of your vessel but also how you're looking in relation to the ground below, so its a matter of looking side to side at your nav ball, altitude, relative speed, and how your lander is lining up on the LZ. 

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

I get that your personal preference is the navball on the side, I'm simply telling you the real-life reason navballs are shoved in your face.

The real life reason sort of falls apart when you're a disembodied camera orbiting a vessel instead of looking outside from the inside.

[Meecrob]

6 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Again, real life and a game is not the same thing, especially since we are talking about a third person view, the cockpit that is modeled in ksp2 also have a navball at the center.

And reminder that your altitude is based on your command pod, so you can't really see how high the bottom of your craft is from the ground by just looking at the navball.

Protip: the navball does not show altitude information.

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

The real life reason sort of falls apart when you're a disembodied camera orbiting a vessel instead of looking outside from the inside.

Look, I conceded that its your personal preference. I was saying what I did because people other than you are interested in stuff like this. I get you are interested in being "right" so go be right and leave me alone.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Meecrob said:

Protip: the navball does not show altitude information.

Not sure if you've played KSP 2 yet but the altitude, and several other readouts, were integrated into the navball.

[Meecrob]

Oh my bad, you got me on that one. I was stuck thinking KSP1. Thanks for the heads up!

Thanks for proving my last comment correct! Its been a slice.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Meecrob

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

5 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The real life reason sort of falls apart when you're a disembodied camera orbiting a vessel instead of looking outside from the inside.

Look, I conceded that its your personal preference. I was saying what I did because people other than you are interested in stuff like this. I get you are interested in being "right" so go be right and leave me alone.

I'm simply pointing out that in real life, the pfd is located in the middle of your vision because you're looking from the inside out, and in KSP 2 you're looking from the outside in where having the navball in the middle of your vision will block your view, especially on a low res monitor. I'm saying what I'm saying because the situation is completely different and shouldn't be treated as a 1:1 analogy.

1 minute ago, Meecrob said:

Oh my bad, you got me on that one. I was stuck thinking KSP1. Thanks for the heads up!

No problem.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[Scarecrow71]

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The real life reason sort of falls apart when you're a disembodied camera orbiting a vessel instead of looking outside from the inside.

Posted on Facebook by the devs.  IVA shot.  Notice where the instrument panel is.

(1) Video | Facebook

[Bej Kerman]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Posted on Facebook by the devs.  IVA shot.  Notice where the instrument panel is.

This is an IVA shot, the camera is looking inside a cockpit. The instrument panel being there is entirely unsurprising, but also has no bearing on the rest of the conversation which is about the 3rd person UI.

[snip]

Edited November 10, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Meecrob]

8 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm simply pointing out that in real life, the pfd is located in the middle of your vision because you're looking from the inside out, and in KSP 2 you're looking from the outside in where having the navball in the middle of your vision will block your view, especially on a low res monitor.

I get your argument. I already addressed your point. To re-iterate: you will have much better results if you focus on the navball as opposed to the 3rd person view. I get that your personal preference is to focus on the 3rd person view. I wish you much enjoyment playing KSP. I'm merely saying the reasons behind this topic. Go play the game your way.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Meecrob

[LoSBoL]

I've got no problems with my real life flight UI

 

 

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Meecrob said:

I get htat you personal preference is to focus on the 3rd person view.

Because it's critical for docking and landing perhaps.

Just now, Meecrob said:

I'm giving reference to something on a message board. You are trying to shoot me down. I have no time for people like you. I do not apologize for pointing out your tactics. Get over yourself.

Simply just standing for the more elegant solution.

3 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

This is not my opinion, people way smarter than both of us combined figured this out decades ago.

Just to reiterate, real cockpits aren't a good analogy for a 3rd person interface.

[Scarecrow71]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

This is an IVA shot, the camera is looking inside a cockpit. The instrument panel being there is entirely unsurprising, but also has no bearing on the rest of the conversation which is about the 3rd person UI.

And there is a reason why you can't treat the 3rd person view as IVA because...?  I know - the simple answer would be to say "Because it's not IVA".  Right.  But there's no reason you can't pretend, especially if you can pretend that you're flying a craft in space.  If you think of the display as IVA, regardless of perspective, then the navball being dead center is just fine.  It's only not fine if you insist that it needs to be off to the side because you are in 3rd person view.

Myself, personally, I prefer it in the center of the screen.  Having to take my eyes off the craft I'm flying and point them down is a natural act.  Having to move them away from the center of the screen is distracting and leads to not doing very well.  It simply isn't a natural act to try to look both left and center at the same time.  And if it is dead center and bothers you, why not just auto-hide it like in KSP2?  If you are capable of moving your eyes quickly, you can certainly move a mouse down a few inches, yes?

[Meecrob]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because it's critical for docking and landing perhaps.

No, its not. Otherwise they would put pilots in a pod behind the aircraft in real life.

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Meecrob said:

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because it's critical for docking and landing perhaps.

No, its not.

Yes it is - UNLESS you send a video of you completing a docking in KSP 1 or 2 with paper stuck to every part of your monitor that doesn't bear a UI element

2 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

Otherwise they would put pilots in a pod behind the aircraft in real life.

That's a matter of necessity. Pilots can afford to land with less visual information if they're told how ridiculous it is to have their aircraft converted into a podracer. This is a game though, and we can afford to budge the navball to the left so things are easier to see and - in the case of accessibility - so that users who require a large UI scaling don't see an entire sector of their screen obstructed.

[Spicat]

7 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And there is a reason why you can't treat the 3rd person view as IVA because...?  I know - the simple answer would be to say "Because it's not IVA". 

Because you need to see where you land, that's the main argument for navball to the side. IVA, you don't see much of the exterior either way.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Spicat

[PDCWolf]

16 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

I've got no problems with my real life flight UI

 

 

That's not a navball, that's a GPS top-down map. Good try though.

Edited November 9, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Meecrob]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Yes it is - UNLESS you send a video of you completing a docking in KSP 1 or 2 with paper stuck to every part of your monitor that doesn't bear a UI element

That's a matter of necessity. Pilots can afford to land with less visual information if they're told how ridiculous it is to have their aircraft converted into a podracer. This is a game though, and we can afford to budge the navball to the left so things are easier to see and - in the case of accessibility - so that users who require a large UI scaling don't see an entire sector of their screen obstructed.

Look, I already said that I am 100% for having a movable navball. Would you kindly stop trying to prove me wrong? Again, this is not my opinion, this is the reality of aerospace. You can have whatever preferences you want, nobody is going to force you to do anything, but there is a very good reason navballs are where they are in real life.

Also, for the record, if you focus on the navball, docking in IVA is exactly as difficult as from 3rd person.

[PDCWolf]

3 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Because you need to see where you land, that's the main argument for navball to the side. IVA, you don't see much of the exterior either way.

And you move the camera over and you can see whatever you need to see, which is even better if the navball wasn't uselessly bigger than it needs to.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

2 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Because you need to see where you land, that's the main argument for navball to the side. IVA, you don't see much of the exterior either way.

And you move the camera over and you can see whatever you need to see

Which is much less elegant than moving the navball to the left so that you don't need to move the camera at all.

2 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

Again, this is not my opinion, this is the reality of aerospace

I'm not entirely sure why you keep reiterating this, because the "reality of aerospace" is completely different from KSP 2.

[Spicat]

4 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And you move the camera over and you can see whatever you need to see, which is even better if the navball wasn't uselessly bigger than it needs to.

So you need to move it to the side, instead of having it like that from the start.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Spicat

[PDCWolf]

7 minutes ago, Spicat said:

So you need to move it to the side, instead of having it like that from the start.

Panning would move the craft less than moving the navball all the way to the corner, and works both ways, not just left to right.

[Spicat]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

Panning would move the craft less than moving the navball all the way to the corner, and works both ways, not just left to right.

So we agree that the navball shouldn't be at the center?

Edited November 9, 2023 by Spicat

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

Panning would move the craft less than moving the navball all the way to the corner

Moving the navball to the left doesn't move the craft and also, again, forces the player to work with a much smaller view.