The Future of KSP 2 Multiplayer

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

If they got caught, it would destroy the reputation of not just the studio but also the publisher, and open them up to possible legal repercussions regarding false advertising.

Therefore, they will not show anyone the video of someone in the studio playing multiplayer in a couple of years.

1 hour ago, Periple said:

I could imagine a solo or indie developer with too much ego and some psychoactive substances doing that, but not a studio under T2 oversight, with an army of lawyers vetting everything they say.

Where was this army of lawyers before, when the game was polished for three years?

1 hour ago, Periple said:

Your claim that a 100-strong studio overseen by a subsidiary of one of the biggest publishers in the business is faking screenshots and outright lying about a core feature is one really big teapot in really high orbit!

I believe that the colonies shown to us in 2020 were not functioning colonies, but simply single models. It is very easy to prove me wrong - to show something other than screenshots. Appealing to the authority of a publisher or studio does not work in 2k23. We already see the result of 6 years of work of 100-strong studio, it is not impressive.

[PDCWolf]

9 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

I believe that the colonies shown to us in 2020 were not functioning colonies, but simply single models. It is very easy to prove me wrong - to show something other than screenshots. Appealing to the authority of a publisher or studio does not work in 2k23. We already see the result of 6 years of work of 100-strong studio, it is not impressive.

I'm totally not a part of the screenshot conspiracy but it is true that like 95% of the show and tells were just asset mounts on an editor and sometimes not even the unity editor at that, which promptly ended up in the "NOT REAL GAMEPLAY" debacle which itself lasted like 3 more show and tells before we stopped getting any form of video.

[Alexoff]

37 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I'm totally not a part of the screenshot conspiracy

I wouldn't call it conspiracy theories. The developers are constantly forced to think everything for them, and I decided to think that everything that is not presented in the game on Steam or not posted on the gameplay video exists only in the form of concepts. And whether these concepts will be in the game is unclear, scattering has not been added to the game, only distant fog. So I only believe my eyes, and the screenshots of the multiplayer are extremely unconvincing, I would say that the developers seem to be trolling us with such screenshots. In a game that hundred (?) of developers are creating, they haven't added destructible buildings or banal anti-aliasing in half a year, what kind of multiplayer can we talk about?

[Periple]

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

I believe that the colonies shown to us in 2020 were not functioning colonies, but simply single models.

That’s possible. Did they ever claim that they were showing a functioning colony with actual gameplay?

6 hours ago, Alexoff said:

So I only believe my eyes, and the screenshots of the multiplayer are extremely unconvincing, I would say that the developers seem to be trolling us with such screenshots.

To my eye they’re the opposite. They’re very rough, with no UI and ugly placeholder info about each of the players overlaid on the scene. That’s exactly what I’d expect to see of a feature that’s in development but not close to release. If they did mock them up, why do you think they didn’t bother using the game UI as a base and pasting in some pretty multiplayer labels and controls?

Also, why would you believe a video over a screenshot? Videos can be mocked up too!

6 hours ago, Alexoff said:

In a game that hundred (?) of developers are creating, they haven't added destructible buildings or banal anti-aliasing in half a year, what kind of multiplayer can we talk about?

Now you’re just being silly!  That’s for the same reason they haven’t done any other feature: because they were busy with something else!

Also AA and destructible buildings specifically are superficial, implementing them won’t break anything else. It’s easy to add that kind of thing last and keep adding them as long as you like. Multiplayer is fundamental and if you don’t design it in from the start you’re never going to be able to have it, it’ll break so many things at all levels!

[VlonaldKerman]

3 hours ago, Periple said:

9 hours ago, Alexoff said:

So I only believe my eyes, and the screenshots of the multiplayer are extremely unconvincing, I would say that the developers seem to be trolling us with such screenshots.

To my eye they’re the opposite. They’re very rough, with no UI and ugly placeholder info about each of the players overlaid on the scene. That’s exactly what I’d expect to see of a feature that’s in development but not close to release. If they did mock them up, why do you think they didn’t bother using the game UI as a base and pasting in some pretty multiplayer labels and controls?

Scenario one: screenshots show rudimentary UI.

Person a: The screenshots look fake

Person b: Obviously they look bare bones- what else would you expect at this stage?

 

Scenario two: screenshots have clean multiplayer UI.

Person a: There’s no way they have a clean UI but no anti aliasing yet. Prob fake.

Person b: Why would they fake this? The UI looks so advanced- if they were faking it, it would look much simpler because why bother with making it look finished?

 

In all seriousness, I do think Alexoff has a point about the dev screenshots, at the very least in the sense that it’s misleading to show a bunch of assets and talk about all the great things you’re implementing when they are at that point just 3-D models. With respect to multiplayer, I’m not an expert, but I expect that it’s much easier to get a basic multiplayer that allows devs to be in the same world thrown together than it is to make something which has 100% functionality and stability like an actual multiplayer release. So again, it’s not really “fake” but is misleading. With regards to the screenshot at hand about heating, who knows.

[Periple]

20 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

In all seriousness, I do think Alexoff has a point about the dev screenshots, at the very least in the sense that it’s misleading to show a bunch of assets and talk about all the great things you’re implementing when they are at that point just 3-D models. 

I think it's only misleading if you mislead! Mockups, concept art, in-progress models, test scenes etc are a part of normal game development, and there's nothing wrong with showing them off and explaining what you're working on. It's only misleading if you show a mockup and say that it's actual gameplay.

Or do you think they should only ever talk about things that are finalized and complete and ready to roll out to the public? 

Moreover, the multiplayer screenshots they've shown don't look like mockups at all. You make mockups to help design things, so they need to look more or less like what you think the final product will look like when it's done. The screenshots look nothing like that, instead they look like what an engineer would have running on their box when working on a feature. 

23 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

With respect to multiplayer, I’m not an expert, but I expect that it’s much easier to get a basic multiplayer that allows devs to be in the same world thrown together than it is to make something which has 100% functionality and stability like an actual multiplayer release.

That's for sure! And it's certainly hard to tell what stage their multiplayer feature is right now, but the fact that they've got it in from the start is the right thing to do. 

I do think that "conspiracy theory" is a pretty good description of the claim that they're faking screenshots and flat-out lying about having working multiplayer at all. It would have to be a conspiracy by everybody who knows it's not true, which must be over a hundred people, and all of those people would have to be keeping the secret knowing that it's really likely they'll get caught, and when they do, it will do really bad things to their company and their career personally. It'd ruin their reputation not just with the public but also within the industry, I wouldn't consider hiring somebody who got caught blatantly lying about something like that. It's just not a done thing. 

32 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Scenario one: screenshots show rudimentary UI.

Person a: The screenshots look fake

Person b: Obviously they look bare bones- what else would you expect at this stage?

Additional context: person B works in gamedev and has seen loads of mockups, concept art, test scenes, and how things look in various stages of development, while person A has only ever seen the finished product.

33 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Scenario two: screenshots have clean multiplayer UI.

Person a: There’s no way they have a clean UI but no anti aliasing yet. Prob fake.

Person b: Why would they fake this? The UI looks so advanced- if they were faking it, it would look much simpler because why bother with making it look finished?

This scenario doesn't sound plausible to me at all! I think it would be more like:

Person A: There’s no way they have a clean UI but no anti aliasing yet. Prob fake.

Person B: Did they say if it's a fully-functional in-engine UI or a design mockup?

You really shouldn't latch onto superficial features like AA or other rendering-related stuff. They will go in when they'll get around to it. Also the people working on the UI likely won't be the same people who are working on rendering (they're different specialities), so it's to be expected that they're at different stages of readiness. When you make a game with a team everything proceeds in parallel and  you will see some extremely rough bits side by side with finished or nearly finished things. 

So a conversation like that would be as likely as looking at a screenshot of one of the beautiful part models and going "probably fake, no way you'd see something that nice when they don't even have AA in yet." It just betrays a lack of understanding of how these things are made!

[VlonaldKerman]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

I think it's only misleading if you mislead! Mockups, concept art, in-progress models, test scenes etc are a part of normal game development, and there's nothing wrong with showing them off and explaining what you're working on. It's only misleading if you show a mockup and say that it's actual gameplay.

Or do you think they should only ever talk about things that are finalized and complete and ready to roll out to the public? 

Imagine I’m working on another game which no one here has an emotional stake in. I announce in 2019 that it will release in 2020, and then I release videos of a unicorn standing around while I talk about all of the awesome things I’m programming for the unicorn to do, and there is small print at the bottom of the screen that says “Not gameplay footage.” Four years later, I release a demo of a heavily pixelated miniature pony with no wings and no horns. It runs at 5fps, and when you try and mount the horse, it wiggles around uncontrollably before igniting into flames.

Remember, when this media was released, it was already after the initial full release date for the game. Many people logically concluded that they didn’t want to show gameplay, but we had no reason to expect it was just “concept art.” Again, I’m not an expert, but in your experience, are you often releasing pure unimplemented concept art a year+ after the game was supposed to release, and months before you claim that you will release the finished game? Surely the consumer is not expected to hear the devs talking about their internal build with colonies in the background of a test asset preview after the game was supposed to release because they’re “taking extra time to ensure quality” and conclude that it’s concept art?

There is a difference between “not fully implemented” and “currently a 3-d object in a CAD with lots of hopes and dreams”. When they show a bunch of assets and animations while talking about what they’re going to do (and claiming they are playable in an internal build!) one naturally assumes said assets are in the “not fully implemented” category, but four years later and… I would say that as a non-super-genious-game-developer-savant, I personally was at least led in slightly the wrong direction.

Edited August 6, 2023 by VlonaldKerman

[Periple]

1 hour ago, VlonaldKerman said:

I would say that as a non-super-genious-game-developer-savant, I personally was at least led in slightly the wrong direction.

There’s no question that they overhyped it and managed expectations badly! I was also expecting something a good deal more polished until the ESA event videos came online.

There’s a really long way from that to blatant lying and faking screenshots however, and that’s the claim I’m taking issue with!

[VlonaldKerman]

52 minutes ago, Periple said:

There’s no question that they overhyped it and managed expectations badly! I was also expecting something a good deal more polished until the ESA event videos came online.

There’s a really long way from that to blatant lying and faking screenshots however, and that’s the claim I’m taking issue with!

I agree- it’s not a matter of “faking” really, but I suspect they knew they were “overhyping” it at the time; it just depends if you consider that fully a lie or not.

 

The good news about KSP 2 multiplayer is that I think most of the player base actually doesn’t care that much about it, and they would be fine if it gets added on in the distant future. To the extent that they care anyways, it’s probably largely on principle, rather than the prospect of getting good use out of the multiplayer.

[Periple]

1 minute ago, VlonaldKerman said:

The good news about KSP 2 multiplayer is that I think most of the player base actually doesn’t care that much about it, and they would be fine if it gets added on in the distant future. To the extent that they care anyways, it’s probably largely on principle, rather than the prospect of getting good use out of the multiplayer.

I don't think this is true! I mean, it may be true for the forums here but not for the wider player base. Co-op multiplayer is super popular and a major selling point and it would be a really good fit for a game like KSP2!

[Royalswissarmyknife]

On 8/4/2023 at 7:17 AM, KerbolExplorer said:

First of all the devs need to sort out how to get 600 parts on screen without the fps going to 10

Fixed it

[Alexoff]

9 hours ago, Periple said:

Did they ever claim that they were showing a functioning colony with actual gameplay?

And the screenshots of the gameplay do not say anything at all.

9 hours ago, Periple said:

That’s exactly what I’d expect to see of a feature that’s in development but not close to release. If they did mock them up, why do you think they didn’t bother using the game UI as a base and pasting in some pretty multiplayer labels and controls?

The first sentence is the answer to the question.

9 hours ago, Periple said:

Also, why would you believe a video over a screenshot? Videos can be mocked up too!

'Cause it's harder to fake

9 hours ago, Periple said:

That’s for the same reason they haven’t done any other feature: because they were busy with something else!

It is a pity that we do not see the results of this work. The most diamonds must be hidden in a dark basement.

10 hours ago, Periple said:

Also AA and destructible buildings specifically are superficial, implementing them won’t break anything else. It’s easy to add that kind of thing last and keep adding them as long as you like. Multiplayer is fundamental and if you don’t design it in from the start you’re never going to be able to have it, it’ll break so many things at all levels!

If something is easy to do, then why torment the public with a long wait and photos of phones recording a computer screen? Since we received very little new content in half a year, this would convince the doubting part of the community. Other developers are constantly warming up interest in their projects with various updates, additions and DLC. IG seems to want only the most dedicated fans to remain in the community.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 8/2/2023 at 2:44 PM, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

It's way too early to tell what Multiplayer is going to be like.

It's also kind of funny how we still didn't even get the first item on the roadmap, so I reckon we're at least a year or two away from Multiplayer and Interstellar, yet these features get discussed a lot with many people (including myself) have concerns over how these features should or shouldn't be like when most likely these features are still in the concept phase.

Still, they’re interesting topics, and discussing them is a more enjoyable way of passing the time until the features do drop.

I’m not really sure that I care all that much about multiplayer, but I am really pumped for Interstellar.  I’m looking forward to exploring some new bodies.  There have also been some hints about DebDeb having an accretion disk, and I wonder how they’re going to implement the increased collision risk (and for that matter, will the ring around Dres be a testbed for that system) and how that’ll affect trip planning.  Are we going to have to lob craft out of the plane of the disk in highly inclined trajectories?  Will planning those even be a huge problem for starships?

[RevanX_LSR]

On 8/6/2023 at 3:26 AM, pipe said:

I've never imagined KSP 2 servers as public which anyone can join. Private/Friend-only Peer-to-peer servers are a much better choice for simulation games like KSP 2.

LMP servers are a bit like that, due to small player base. Although it would be cool to have a few large servers as well.

[moeggz]

Dakota just said this on the discord.  It is pinned to dev updates on discord if you would like to see the source.
 

the extent of multiplayer is: we have a technical framework, it works, but we're putting it on the backburner for now so we can focus on Science and the other Milestones first. it doesn't make sense to flesh it out now, since it would take a lot of development time - and we still need to implement many things that will directly affect multiplayer, like official modding support for example. basically, don't expect any news soon or even soon(tm). we'll give an update when it starts to be a priority again.

[Alexoff]

12 hours ago, moeggz said:

it would take a lot of development time

Interestingly, in the context of previous IG messages, a lot of time is how much? Five years, ten?