Thoughts On Workspace Vehicle Saving?

[Kerbart]

2 hours ago, Capt. Hunt said:

I'd like to know why half of my craft launch as Fly Safe-47 instead of the name I set for the craft?

One theory is that when you hit “save,” you picked the auto-save with that name. And the vehicle name for an autosave file reverts back (don’t get me started) to “fly safe”

Clearly an area open to improvement 

[HebaruSan]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

One theory is that when you hit “save,” you picked the auto-save with that name. And the vehicle name for an autosave file reverts back (don’t get me started) to “fly safe”

Or maybe it's an auto-save from before you chose a craft name.

[modus]

On 12/25/2023 at 3:23 PM, The Aziz said:

I think already have about a dozens times in the last 10 months. The saving mechanism is probably bugged or not fully implemented, but the workspace system works. You can have a family of vehicles saved in one workspace. Be it planes, standarized launch vehicles, satellites, or even your orbital station cut to pieces so you can grab each piece, attach a lifter and send it to space one after one. Back in the day you would have to resort to either separate files, or subassemblies where you'd have to fiddle with root parts because anything not attached to root was a ghost piece. Now you can work on three pieces of the same rocket separately in one workspace, and then connect them together with four clicks because you can grab and attach every part.

I see why people don't get it, because it's not the most clear thing in the world, very far from it. But once you get the hang of it, you may see how convenient it is.

Thanks for explaining. Since your reply I've seen multiple people in multiple threads saying they don't understand the whole workspace thing so I'm glad it's not just me

I mean, on paper I understand it, but when I'm actually in the vab, I'm all confused

[AndyMt]

I must admit, this system sometimes doesn't do what I expect it to do. It would help if I could by default filter out autosaves. Also nice would be if I save a workspace with the same name as an existing one, that it would offer to merge them together. In the VAB I mostly only want to look and work on one craft at a time. It's so easy to accidentally click on some other craft and modify it, throwing off all staging. So some "only show active craft" mode would be nice.

Also I don't really get how to select a craft reliably and have the VAB stick to it and also keep it's name. A dropown or list of crafts in the workspace would help that.

I try to understand workspaces like some kind of folders. Am I wrong here?

[The Aziz]

30 minutes ago, AndyMt said:

I try to understand workspaces like some kind of folders. Am I wrong here?

Well you are correct in a way. Treat it like folders with different files. Treat it like a document with different pages independent of each other. You can cut, add, remove, modify things without affecting other things next to them.

[AndyMt]

In KSP1 I used subassemblies to store standardised launchers etc. I have to check how I can achive the same with KSP2. Until now I didn't manage to merge a single craft from one workspace into another. Might have been due to the convoluted ui and the distracting autosaves.

[The Aziz]

Technically you don't have to bother with merging - like you said, it's a folder structure. Just have your workspace with standarized launchers, grab one by the root part, ctrl+C, switch to workspace with payload or whatever, ctrl+V.

[AndyMt]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

grab one by the root part, ctrl+C, switch to workspace with payload or whatever, ctrl+V.

That solution is so obvious ! But then also hidden in plain sight. Will give this a try next time I play.

[The Aziz]

It's even better and big props to whoever designed it, because you're quite literally copying some lines from a json file, which you can then paste in a notepad or something. And whoever copies that, and pastes it in their own game VAB, gets your ship. It's genius.

Edited January 2 by The Aziz

[AndyMt]

Well, tried it. On principle a good idea, but: if I paste a launcher, all engine fairings disappear (even though parts manager still says they are enabled). To fix this I have to detatch and reattach each decoupler etc to get them back. Then of course the staging  is all messed up.

I still don't get the purpose of the vehicle name: there is no way to name my launchers differently in a workspace. There is only one vehicle name per workspace, or is it?

It would be nice to be able to name each assembly (vehicle, craft, launcher) separately. That would make sense. Then have a dropdown selector somewhere. Make the VAB autoposition vehicles in the center line of the VAB so they line up, the current selected one in the front. Only allow the current one to be changed, except linking them together.

Right now I don't see a real benefit I must admit. I see what the devs wanted to do, kind of... But it's unfinished and quite cumbersome. I really hope they fix this soon. Atm I have dozens of workspaces with the same name, some autosaves, some I don't know how they came to be. And sometimes I load the wrong one, until I notice I have another autosave...

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, AndyMt said:

if I paste a launcher, all engine fairings disappear (even though parts manager still says they are enabled). To fix this I have to detatch and reattach each decoupler etc to get them back. Then of course the staging  is all messed up.

It's worth reporting cuz that's clearly a bug.

1 hour ago, AndyMt said:

There is only one vehicle name per workspace, or is it?

Unfortunately, right now, yes. I mean you can rename the ship you're launching but that needs to be sorted out, hopefully sooner than later.

All in all, we're aware that it needs work but the team had a good idea in general - it just isn't quite there yet, but so is the rest of the game.

[AndyMt]

21 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

All in all, we're aware that it needs work but the team had a good idea in general - it just isn't quite there yet

Sure, I get that. To summarize for me there is mainly 3 things to improve to make it work:

1. have a way to name vehicles/assemblies separately inside a workspace
2. Easy way to select a specific vehicle from a list or dropdown
3. Offer to filter out autosaves in the load/save menu

[Superfluous J]

15 minutes ago, AndyMt said:

Sure, I get that. To summarize for me there is mainly 3 things to improve to make it work:

1. have a way to name vehicles/assemblies separately inside a workspace
2. Easy way to select a specific vehicle from a list or dropdown
3. Offer to filter out autosaves in the load/save menu

I'd also like to hide other vessels, or even have a "only show the current vessel" mode that I'd likely use all the time (assuming #2 exists above)

[Gorby1]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:35 AM, The Aziz said:

Well you are correct in a way. Treat it like folders with different files. Treat it like a document with different pages independent of each other. You can cut, add, remove, modify things without affecting other things next to them.

I think I understand but just to be clear - when you say you have multiple "pages" (vehicles) in one workspace, you mean that you just have multiple vehicles in the VAB at the same time when you save the workspace?

As far as I can tell, the only real benefit of the workspace is being able to save your vehicle with one name for the savefile/workspace while having a different name for the vehicle when you view it in the Tracking Station or map view... which isn't something I really cared about.

[The Aziz]

54 minutes ago, Gorby1 said:

you mean that you just have multiple vehicles in the VAB at the same time when you save the workspace?

Well, yes. A family of vehicles available at will to merge/edit/delete/launch/copy/whatever without having to reload anything. Going back to the analogy, if you edit page 6 of your document, pages 1-5 and 7-howevermanyyouhave won't change.

[pg17]

I get the idea for the new system. The point of having several vehicles loaded in the VAB is useful when assembling a rocket with it's payloads, but considering how it performs with big and complex crafts (lot of pieces), it doesn't feel really usable to me as a mean to have a library / collection of craft in a single file (and if you consider the potential bugs in symmetry, undo/redo, staging groups, control groups, deltaV calculation, etc... it's a recipe for disaster on an entire spacecraft collection). Also the need to go through the "save as" process each and every time and having to name both the workspace AND the ship really feels cumbersome.

What I would like to see is :

• Keep the multi-root / multi vehicle in the VAB & save file as it is useful in many cases (assembling payloads, testing vehicle variants, testing scenarios, etc...)
• Only have one name for the save (which would be the default vehicle name no matter which sub-assembly you choose to launch)
• Add the ability to have named folders
  • A dropdown with the existing folders / paths would replace the current "workspace" input in the "save as" popup for rapid folder selection
  • Bonus: have a list of icons to choose from (rocket, rover, payload, lander, deep space, satellite, station, local SOI, interplanetary, ...)
• When merging two files A & B with A being the one loaded, either :
  • make the merge into a new file instead of merging into B so you don't risk overwriting anything (I lost a few blueprints because of that)
  • or add a copy button directly on the file thumbnail that gives you the corresponding json (of B in this case) in the clipboard ready to be pasted into your currently loaded VAB (A in this case) without having to  open B then reopen A
• Add a "save active vehicle as" button that would save the currently active root into a separate file (without leaving the current VAB / file).

I've seriously come to a point where, for vehicles I consider "finished",  I maintain a list of ".txt" files containing the json (that you get with ctrl+c) in one of my desktop's folders because it feels easier and safer to open them and copy/paste them than using the in-game system.

 

[The Aziz]

2 hours ago, pg17 said:

Only have one name for the save (which would be the default vehicle name no matter which sub-assembly you choose to launch)

Naming the vehicle in workspace saving menu should be exchanged for naming each vehicle separately as an option, say, next to color palette. So that you can have multiple named vehicles inside one workspace.

2 hours ago, pg17 said:

Add the ability to have named folders

This functionality is exactly what workspaces are. The only difference is that there isn't a hierarchy.

2 hours ago, pg17 said:

or add a copy button directly on the file thumbnail that gives you the corresponding json (of B in this case) in the clipboard ready to be pasted into your currently loaded VAB (A in this case) without having to  open B then reopen A

Problem: multiple vehicles in a workspace. So which json file should it copy?

Grabbing the vehicle by root part, and ctrl+c, ctrl+v-ing it elsewhere does the job.

[pg17]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Naming the vehicle in workspace saving menu should be exchanged for naming each vehicle separately as an option, say, next to color palette. So that you can have multiple named vehicles inside one workspace.

Not the solution that I personally would prefer, but I agree that it would be a good and reasonable improvement  of the current feature that would need less work that reworking the system the way I suggest.

More generally I wish there was some way to lock or color code vehicle stages so they dont get merged together when you fix a payload to a rocket (so that the vehicle B stages would act as 1 "non-triggerable" stage of vehicle A). Also so they don't get "mixed" in the part viewer.

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

This functionality is exactly what workspaces are. The only difference is that there isn't a hierarchy.

Not really, because for one, as you say, there is no hierarchy, but most importantly, while I can have one "heavy launchers" directory with 10 files inside, having one "heavy launchers" workspace with 10 vehicles inside could put the game on it's knees and force me to work on a craft at 3 fps (I'm not exaggerating, that is what I got with complex heavy rocket still nowhere close to the VAB size limit).
But maybe I missed something ? I'm asking genuinely, no irony there, because you seems to be comfortable with (and attached to) the current system while to me it is very  frustrating, so I might be missing something. Do you think you could maybe post one or more screenshots of some of your uses cases so I can see when and where it works well ?

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Problem: multiple vehicles in a workspace. So which json file should it copy?

Easy, if it contains many vehicles, either copy all of them and let me decide which one I remove and which one I keep after pasting them, or copy only the one that was "active" when the file was saved.

[steveman0]

I really don't understand the thinking that workspaces are meant to be a way to store multiple craft together in one place for later reuse. Everything about how it is implemented right now seems to conflict with this goal. The only use case I see for it is if you're building a larger assembly like an interplanetary ship and want to work with multiple components in one space to assemble and mix with launchers to see how it all pieces together. For individual craft reuse, it simply doesn't make sense.

As the simplest case, I'd like to have a way of grouping all of my launch systems. While I could put them all in one workspace, this simply makes them harder to reuse, not easier. As individual craft in their own workspaces, when I go to open an existing craft they each get their own name, description, and thumbnail showing me what I get. I can then merge it to get it in for reuse. If I put it in a shared workspace, I lose these benefits. All for what? Having it take up less space in the load window? That's a symptom of the limitations of the search/sort of this window. Not being able to filter out autosaves being an already noted problem here.

Additionally, this won't solve the deeper issues we'll face when we get collonies and resource collection. What will I do then when I need to use different launch systems for duna because they have different payload capacities and design requirements due to differences in TWR and dV. Do I split this workspace? What happens when I have dozens in here? Surely this won't work well after you fill ot with a half dozen or more assemblies.

The ideal solution as I see it, is a tagging system where I can apply one or more built-in or customizable tags to my designs. Then the search/sort of the open craft screen can have you downselect this way using one or more tags. Want launch systems, for a 100t payload, designed for Duna? Select the launch, L, XL, and Duna tags and check out your options. Maybe include M for medium rockets as the low gravity may allow downsizing relative to typical Kerbin launches. Descriptions can fill in for the fine details such as "has full RCS with 2t monoprop" where a tag won't be appropriate/reused.

I would invest much more into fine-tuning my builds if I could categorize them this way. There are some many little pieces I build and rebuild that don't get saved because it is hard enough to find what I'm looking for already in the list.

Edited January 15 by steveman0

[sgt_flyer]

Trying to recap everything that the workspace system tries to currently do :

(outside of the naming system which is, in my opinion a separate issue, as vessel renaming inflight is problematic)

    - Storing multiple saves & autosaves of a ship

    - Storing subassemblies only for that ship (instead of having irrelevant subassemblies stored globally)

    - Potentially storing ship variants and or categories (hierarchical organisation)

 

one question could be, why trying to store everything above in the same window in the game UI ?

In KSP1, you basically managed subassemblies from the parts picker.

Would it be possible to have subassembly tabs in the KSP2 parts picker ? :

     - 1 tab which would be Workspace subassemblies - stores subassemblies dedicated to the current ship. Loaded with the workspace

     - 1 or more custom tabs for storing & organizing global subassemblies (stuff that you reuse on a lot of ships, like custom RCS subassemblies). Always available for all workspaces. 

 

For hierarchical organization, why not allow to have a tree of subfolders when saving & loading the whole workspace ? This could allow : 

    - Easier sorting through categories (ex : you only deploy the Launchers subfolders, containing multiple workspaces of launchers)

    - you could only have 1 ship per workspace (resolving naming issues)

 

Basically, to resume the above :

    - The current Workspace UI would be for managing single ship saves & autosaves. (So you can roll back to an older ship save in case of problem)

    - the saving / loading menu for whole workspaces would allow for filtering and / or organize (through a tree structure) ship categories.

    - the part picker would have tabs for workspace & global subassemblies (so you could pick & paste subassemblies like in KSP1)

    - Merging workspaces should allow to pick what you want to merge - workspace subassemblies or ship for example with your currently loaded workspace. 

 

 

Edited January 18 by sgt_flyer

[DailyFrankPeter]

I'd like to see these improvements:
- support double-click on an save icon to load/overwrite (can still have the confirmation, but will save on moving mouse to the 'load' button)
- better disambiguate autosaves (currently I think they have exactly the same name as the namespace I saved myself)
- allow for full screen previews (or at least larger) on hover - sometimes two saves will differ by a few tiny parts on a large, otherwise the same, craft
- scale down UI in general - fonts, number of items per page (same as for a lot of other other dialogs in the game) - currently it's sized for phone screens

Edited January 19 by DailyFrankPeter