[1.11.x] RCS Build Aid v1.0.6

[blowfish]

is this mod ok to use in 1.0.4?

I haven't had any issues.

[MaverickSawyer]

I haven't had any issues.

Seconded. It's been flawless so far.

[Svm420]

Well beside the giant issue posted last page with RealFuels and RCS build aid posted last page

[blowfish]

Sure, but I doubt that has anything to do with 1.0.2 vs 1.0.4.

[fatcargo]

It won't crash the game if thats what you ask, i don't use it much beyond RCS balancing for tugs and alignement of main thrusters.

[MaverickSawyer]

It won't crash the game if thats what you ask, i don't use it much beyond RCS balancing for tugs and alignement of main thrusters.

If you ever do airplanes or horizontal VTOL craft, this is an absolute must-have. You can see exactly how your CoM will shift.

[m4v]

There seems to be a major issue with the RealFuels mod and RCS Build aid.

I don't use RealFuels and I'm not super thrilled in having a look. Eventually I will but don't hold your breath.

[gkorgood]

@m4v: could you release a quick patch so that KSP-AVC and/or KSP itself don't give error messages on startup because of conflicting versions? The mod works beautifully and is a must-have for me, the error messages are just kind of annoying.

[Tarheel1999]

@m4v: could you release a quick patch so that KSP-AVC and/or KSP itself don't give error messages on startup because of conflicting versions? The mod works beautifully and is a must-have for me, the error messages are just kind of annoying.

All AVC does it check a text file which is probably called "VERSION". You can edit it yourself with a text editor to stop the alert.

[Bizz Keryear]

I think I have found a bug ...

I think the force vector isn't pointing in the right direction ... It actually should point in the opposite. Well, if I am not completely stupid, that is.

I have build an unguided rocket, that kicks itself pretty much in a 220k polar suborbital trajectory ... before I take over.

The forces acting on it pull it downwards and to the left ... and as the rocket is aligned right now that is east. But the RCSba (in rocket mode) orange arrow points in exact the opposite direction.

[gkorgood]

I think I have found a bug ...

I think the force vector isn't pointing in the right direction ... It actually should point in the opposite. Well, if I am not completely stupid, that is.

I have build an unguided rocket, that kicks itself pretty much in a 220k polar suborbital trajectory ... before I take over.

The forces acting on it pull it downwards and to the left ... and as the rocket is aligned right now that is east. But the RCSba (in rocket mode) orange arrow points in exact the opposite direction.

http://i.imgur.com/RaxpxPB.png

http://youtu.be/2ax_Sy26l-M

Left in this picture is west. the game launches rockets as if they were rolled out from the VAB onto the pad. so when looking at a craft in VAB, with the outside on your right, left is west. your craft is tilted very north and slightly west. sorry if redundant. there aren't many ways to say west

[Bizz Keryear]

Left in this picture is west. the game launches rockets as if they were rolled out from the VAB onto the pad. so when looking at a craft in VAB, with the outside on your right, left is west. your craft is tilted very north and slightly west. sorry if redundant. there aren't many ways to say west

Oh crap ... I mixed up the cardinal points ... again. Yeah, I have a mnemonic. Doesn't keep me from screwing up if I don't pay attention.

[...]

Also made another mistake ... had forgot that in this alteration I made it so that the diversion to the west is done by drag and weight distribution and I left out the tilt for that ... since that made overshoot the rocket too much.

Anyway I played around a little with this rocket ... a basically reused it in a other save to launch another satellite. But from what I have seen this force has jumped around randomly arrow, I haven't confirm it but i looked to me like it also deepened on the rotation (around the y axis) of inline parts (and with nothing attached). Which should have no influence whatsoever.

[m4v]

I think I have found a bug ...

I think the force vector isn't pointing in the right direction ... It actually should point in the opposite. Well, if I am not completely stupid, that is.

I have build an unguided rocket, that kicks itself pretty much in a 220k polar suborbital trajectory ... before I take over.

The forces acting on it pull it downwards and to the left ... and as the rocket is aligned right now that is east. But the RCSba (in rocket mode) orange arrow points in exact the opposite direction.

http://i.imgur.com/RaxpxPB.png

http://youtu.be/2ax_Sy26l-M

I don't understand and I'm not sure what is the problem but red arrow is torque, *not* force. To understand how your rocket will pitch use the right hand rule (google it), in your picture, with the torque vector pointing east (90º heading), means that the rocket will try to pitch south (180º heading) if launched straight. Isn't that what you describe is happening? (suborbital polar orbit).

Edited July 31, 2015 by m4v

[gkorgood]

I don't understand and I'm not sure what is the problem but red arrow is torque, *not* force. To understand how your rocket will pitch use the right hand rule (google it), in your picture, with the torque vector pointing east (90º heading), means that the rocket will try to pitch south (180º heading) if launched straight. Isn't that what you describe is happening? (suborbital polar orbit).

I knew there was something about the arrows he wasn't interpreting right! Haven't been able to sit down at KSP for a while so I forgot about the torque vector being displayed, with the rotation being shown as a circular arrow. Thanks for reminding me.

EDIT: there's still something wrong with the arrows. all engines should have their average thrust directly in line with the CoM, unless the payload is built really unbalanced. rotating the rocket shouldn't change this alignment, should it? RCSBA doesn't take gravity into account, right?

Edited July 31, 2015 by gkorgood

[m4v]

EDIT: there's still something wrong with the arrows. all engines should have their average thrust directly in line with the CoM, unless the payload is built really unbalanced.

He said the rocket would fly to a pole before he took control, obviously something is slightly unbalanced.

[Bizz Keryear]

Left in this picture is west. the game launches rockets as if they were rolled out from the VAB onto the pad. so when looking at a craft in VAB, with the outside on your right, left is west. your craft is tilted very north and slightly west. sorry if redundant. there aren't many ways to say west

Just too bad that there isn't just one right hand rule ... and you lost me here. Because it still makes no sense. (more below)

I knew there was something about the arrows he wasn't interpreting right![...]the torque vector being displayed, with the rotation being shown as a circular arrow...

So you know what he is talking about? Anyway...

1. I don't see any circular arrow.
   
2. When I apply the right hand rule that make the most sense ... This arrow still doesn't make any since the rocket still rotates in the opposite direction. Again exactly 180° from where the arrow is pointing.*²
   

EDIT: there's still something wrong with the arrows.

There is something wrong:

... wow wanted to quote me here and figured that what I wrote made no sense whatsoever... here the corrected version:

[After mentioning that I made alteration versions of this rocket]

But from what I have seen this arrow has the tendency to jumped around randomly. It looked to me* like it also depends on the rotation*² of inline parts*³.

Which should have no influence on the forces whatsoever.

RCSBA doesn't take gravity into account, right?

It does not?

all engines should have their average thrust directly in line with the CoM, unless the payload is built really unbalanced. rotating the rocket shouldn't change this alignment, should it?

Well they change if I tilt the rocket, though.

He said the rocket would fly to a pole before he took control, obviously something is slightly unbalanced.

Well, I see it more like (almost*) perfectly balanced ... to get something around 90° inclination.

---

* = Means I have not tested it throughly

*² = around the y axis ... I mean the axis on which the symmetry occurs. I mean e.g. rotate a part so that the e.g flag on the side is showing in a certain direction.

*³ = with nothing on the surface attached to them

[m4v]

I don't see any circular arrow.

The circular arrow isn't shown when torque isn't significant enough for move the rocket (bigger rockets are harder to turn), but if you're launching it hands free and without SAS when you should reduce it further.

When I apply the right hand rule that make the most sense ... This arrow still doesn't make any since the rocket still rotates in the opposite direction. Again exactly 180° from where the arrow is pointing.*²

...

*² = around the y axis ... I mean the axis on which the symmetry occurs. I mean e.g. rotate a part so that the e.g flag on the side is showing in a certain direction.

Again I fail to understand to where this "opposite direction" supposed to point to, you made a video of the rocket in VAB but not of the launch showing the issue, that could have helped. If really is going to the wrong direction then I will assume that aerodynamics is overpowering whatever RCSBA is saying, the torque there is not really significant.

[Superfluous J]

I agree with m4v. That rocket looks like it'll be unstable in atmo. Have you tried fins?

[ThorBeorn]

I have a bug to report. The center of mass starts this inverted bahaviour (CoM moving backwards when filling up a tank forwards of CoM for example) after some time in the VAB. Sometimes the CoM just goes wild and ends up 30 meters outside of the craft.

I don't have solid reproduction steps, sometimes everything seems to be normal, but I suspect reverting to VAB or loading an already built craft causes it.

The bug disappears when RCS Build Aid is removed from my install and it comes back when I put the mod back in Gamedata folder.

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I run a RO install with lots of mods. I realise this introduces confounders, but I don't feel like digging more into this today.

Output.log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eogir10q15gz8ly/output_log.txt?dl=0

KSP.log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qtyxq48z66xs54/KSP.log?dl=0

[m4v]

Really busy around here so I can't look, but if you can reproduce that bug without FAR and with stock parts you will have my attention.

Edited August 12, 2015 by m4v

[ThorBeorn]

Really busy around here so I can't look, but if you can reproduce that bug without FAR and with stock parts you will have my attention.

I hear you. FAR was the first mod I suspected and the bug is present without it. But I haven't tried with a stock install only. I'm about to go away for a week, but I'll report back here if I get around to do some more bug hunting.

[peachoftree]

there should be an option to disable vernors in the torque calculations, this would make things a lot easier for spaceplane builders

[cantab]

I'm also encountering nonsense values. FAR is installed along with a few others but the parts are stock. I get CoM and DCoM in different places on a ship with all fuel tanks fully drained. I've yet to be able to reliably reproduce the issue.

[pellinor]

I hear you. FAR was the first mod I suspected and the bug is present without it. But I haven't tried with a stock install only. I'm about to go away for a week, but I'll report back here if I get around to do some more bug hunting.

This looks more and more like a stock problem to me:

http://imgur.com/AHBMzEx

This is from 1.0.4 stock (linux-64), sandbox, first time in the VAB. The middle is an empty tank. The mass of the cockpit is 1t, the rapier at the other end weighs 2t, so the CoM can not be right.

Another observation: when I attach the rapier to the empty tank the CoM barely moves. When attaching the cockpit, it jumps a lot more. So the mass of those two parts does not match their "weight" in the CoM calculation.

When I launch the craft it tips to the left, so the CoM display is in agreement with the physics engine. So something with the physics is wrong?

Edit: false alarm, I forgot about the new engine CoM placement.

Edited October 23, 2015 by pellinor

[blowfish]

This looks more and more like a stock problem to me:

http://i.imgur.com/AHBMzEx.jpg

This is from 1.0.4 stock (linux-64), the middle is an empty tank. The mass of the cockpit is 1t, the rapier at the other end weighs 2t, so the CoM can not be right.

Another observation: when I attach the rapier to the empty tank the CoM barely moves. When attaching the cockpit, it jumps a lot more. So the mass of those two parts does not match their "weight" in the CoM calculation.

When I launch the craft it tips to the left, so the CoM display is in agreement with the physics engine. So something with the physics is wrong?

The engine probably has a CoM offset which will put its mass closer to the center of the tank. If it's not applying consistently in flight and in the editor though, then that's a bug.