[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[TaranisElsu]

TL;DR - I will not be accepting any problem reports for the Windows 64-bit version.

I have been spending time testing in the Windows 64-bit version and my conclusion is that the 64-bit has serious bugs and stability issues that I cannot attribute to any mod, even my own. I even installed a whole bunch of mods that I do not normally run with to increase the memory used by KSP (to over 5 GB!).

I have had numerous crashes, but at different points, and none have been repeatable. I have had KSP crash when loading a save, but I reloaded KSP without changing a thing and it worked the second time. I have had KSP crash when loading a saved vessel in the VAB, again, not repeatable. I have had KSP crash when my ship crashed into the ground and got destroyed, again, worked fine the second time.

So.... I will not be accepting any problem reports for the Windows 64-bit version.

FYI, my mod list from my "Test Win64" install:

[ModuleManager] compiling list of loaded mods...
Mod DLLs found:
  Assembly-CSharp v1.0.0.0
  GCMonitor v1.1.0.0
  ModuleManager.2.3.4 v2.3.4.0
  ResearchThemAll v1.1.0.0
  aaa_Toolbar v1.0.0.0
  ActionGroupManager v1.3.2.0
  AviationLights v0.0.0.0
  BDAnimationModules v0.0.0.0
  Chatterer v0.5.9.6405
  ContractManager v0.3.1.0
  ContractsWindow v1.0.1.2
  CrewManifest v0.5.8.0
  CustomAsteroids v1.0.0.0
  CustomBiomes v1.0.0.0
  DeadlyReentry v5.1.5319.31493
  DistantObject v0.0.0.0
  EditorExtensions v1.3.5313.1464
  RealRoster v1.0.0.0
  CityLights v1.0.0.0
  Clouds v1.0.0.0
  Geometry v1.0.0.0
  OverlayMgr v1.0.0.0
  Terrain v1.0.0.0
  KSPAPIExtensions v1.7.0.0
  Launchpad v4.2.3.0
  LaunchpadToolbar v4.2.3.0
  FerramAerospaceResearch v0.14.1.1
  ferramGraph v1.3.0.0
  FinePrint v1.0.0.0
  Firespitter v7.0.5356.35478
  Habitat v1.0.0.0
  HullCamera v0.3.0.0
  KerbalEngineer v1.0.8.1
  MiniAVC v1.0.2.3
  KerbalFlightData v1.0.0.0
  KerbalGPS v0.0.0.0
  KerbalJointReinforcement v2.4.3.0
  kOS v1.0.0.0
  ICSharpCode.SharpZipLib v0.86.0.518
  KSP-AVC v1.1.4.2
  KSPLua v1.0.0.0
  NLua v1.3.1.0
  MechJeb2 v2.3.0.0
  MechJebFARExt v1.0.0.0
  modularFuelTanks v5.1.1.0
  DockingPortAlignment v1.0.0.0
  ModuleDockingNodeNamed v1.0.0.0
  OpenResourceSystem_1_2_0 v1.2.0.0
  PartAngleDisplay v0.2.4.1
  PartCatalog v3.0.0.0
  PartHighlighter v1.0.0.0
  PartWizard v1.1.0.0
  PreciseNode v1.0.0.0
  DYJlibrary v1.0.0.0
  ProceduralFairings v0.0.0.0
  ProceduralParts v0.9.18.0
  protractor v2.4.12.0
  RCSBuildAid v0.5.0.40983
  RCSBuildAidToolbar v0.5.0.40984
  RealChute v1.2.5331.297
  RealSolarSystem v0.7.3.0
  RemoteTech2 v1.4.1.0
  OpenResourceSystem_1_1_0 v1.1.0.0
  SCANsat v1.0.6.0
  SelectRoot v0.0.0.0
  StationScience v1.0.0.0
  StripSymmetry v1.3.0.0
  TacStickyControls v0.1.0.0
  Targetron v0.0.0.0
  ShipStatePlugin v0.0.0.0
  TacAtomicClock v1.3.0.0
  TacFlightComputer v0.7.0.0
  TacFuelBalancer v2.4.0.0
  TacLifeSupport v0.10.0.0
  KerbalAlarmClock v2.7.8.2
  KSPAlternateResourcePanel v2.5.1.0
  TransferWindowPlanner v1.0.1.0
  TrimIndicators v0.1.5273.34961
  Karbonite v1.0.0.0
  KolonyTools v0.16.0.0
  ORSExtensions v1.0.0.0
  USITools v1.0.0.0
  USI_Converter v1.0.0.0
  AirbagTools v1.0.0.0
  bounce v1.0.0.0
Non-DLL mods added:
  SpaceplanePlus
Mods by directory (subdirs of GameData):
  000_Toolbar
  BahaEPL
  BahaSP
  BoulderCo
  CommunityResourcePack
  Enneract
  EnvironmentalVisualEnhancements
  ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads
  FalconTech
  HabitatPack
  HullCameraVDS
  KWRocketry
  ModsByTal
  NASAmission
  NavyFish
  NothkeSerCom
  OpenResourceSystem
  ProceduralDynamics
  Squad
  StationPartsExpansion
  TCShipInfo
  TextureReplacer
  ThunderAerospace
  ThunderAerospaceCorp
  TriggerTech
  UmbraSpaceIndustries
  WombatConversions
  WorldCup2014
  zMissionFlags
  zMyTweaks

Did you really read the entire post? Congratulations! I will accept some problem reports for the Windows 64-bit version, but you must read [Official] How To Get Support and my Help page and follow the instructions to the letter!!! Any reports must include the entire log file, a list of steps to recreate the issue, and a minimal list of mods needed to recreate the issue. You must have tried to recreate the issue in another version: either the Windows 32-bit, the Mac (OSX) 32-bit, or the Linux 64-bit. And the report must be posted as a Github Issue. Any reports not in compliance with these requirements will be ignored.

Edited September 25, 2014 by TaranisElsu

[Angelo Kerman]

Sounds like you're having a rough night Taranis. I wasn't filing a helpdesk ticket so much as seeing if others were experiencing the same issue. And other users of your mod were able to point me in the right direction.

[TaranisElsu]

Sounds like you're having a rough night Taranis. I wasn't filing a helpdesk ticket so much as seeing if others were experiencing the same issue. And other users of your mod were able to point me in the right direction.

Not so much a rough night as I am tired of people not reading and making a basic attempt to give enough information. I understand not reading all 209+ pages, but please read the last 1-2 pages? And any post here is a problem report, unless you like spreading rumors and misinformation?

Edited September 14, 2014 by TaranisElsu

[Angelo Kerman]

Not so much a rough night as I am tired of people not reading and making a basic attempt to give enough information. And any post here is a problem report, unless you like spreading rumors and misinformation?

Not spreading rumors, simply stating where I was coming from and what I tried to resolve the situation before asking for your help.

[TaranisElsu]

Not spreading rumors, simply stating where I was coming from and what I tried to resolve the situation before asking for your help.

Except you didn't:

Is anybody having issues with kerbals receiving no food/air/water when they go EVA with the latest release? I'm having that problem.

No indication that you did any trouble shooting, no log file¹, no version number², no list of other mods³, no OS version⁴, and no 32-bit vs. 64-bit information⁵.

As it says in the [Official] How To Get Support: "Following these steps resolves ~90% of all mod-related issues, which allows you to get back to playing and allows modders to spend more time focusing on the ~10% of issues that require their attention."

You could have saved yourself, and others, a lot of time if you had read and followed the troubleshooting steps in the [Official] How To Get Support and my Help page.

And I am sorry. Please do not take this as an attack. I am not trying to single you out. I am not trying to attack or shame you in any way.

I am just trying to ask for some help, from everybody, to cut down some of the noise and chaff so that I can fix the issues that actually exist. I have been getting so many posts from people having problems since 0.24 came out, and very few have been anything worth posting. Most have been user error, user misunderstanding, or installation errors. Many of those posts have included misinformation that has added to others' problems and/or misdirected them from the actual solutions to their problems. (The fix suggested for your problem, while it may have been effective, was not actually related to your problem.)

I am trying to support everyone as best as I can, but I am one person, with limited time to work on my mods and/or play KSP (oh, how I wish I could actually play the game and use my own mods! And some great mods made by others!)

I have edited the OP to hopefully help the situation. Is there anything else that I can or should do?

Notes:

¹ The log file gives a wealth of information that can help me help you. Sometimes a problem manifests later than the (much earlier) actual cause.

² Which "latest version"? Some people have downloaded the wrong version thinking they had the latest. Or they downloaded the Github repository instead of an actual release. I messed up the upload to Curse once such that it skipped the latest release and was giving people the previous one.

³ Some other mod might be conflicting. BTW, I can get this list from the log file.

⁴ Windows, Linux, or Mac? Some problems have only shown up on a particular operating system. BTW, can be determined from the log file.

⁵ It makes a difference, unfortunately. BTW, can also be determined from the log file.

[Angelo Kerman]

No worries, I can understand your frustrations. You've spent a lot of time making your mods work and it's appreciated.

I haven't provided any info as I'm still investigating and gathering info. I'm currently using 32-bit KSP and the latest TAC. I've got a bunch of mods installed including Universal Storage - TAC (0.8.3.4) with the 25% resources config, but I'm doing a clean install of KSP with no other mods installed, and will then add TAC 0.10 and see if the problem persists. Once I've done that and compared my results to other mods I'll install, I can file a proper bug report.

[Paul Kingtiger]

Hey Taranis,

I was checking out your calculations sheet to balance up some parts and I noticed that you're using 1 electric charge = 1kw. You're right that this is a common value amongst a lot of mods, but it doesn't balance well with the solar panels in game.

Looking at the panels on Mir and the ISS, they produce an average of 90w per square meter. But the in-game panels produce an average of 1.82 units per square meter. 1820w vs 90w makes the in-game panels massively overpowered so there's never any problem powering stuff that uses real world energy levels.

For universal storage I set the electric charge unit so that in-game panels are about the same as real world panels, giving 1 unit = 33w. This means that parts based on real stuff like the recyclers, require a realistic number of panels to run, or at least powering the recyclers is something that needs to be thought about.

[cptk1ng]

KSP: 0.24.2

Modlist: excel file (there are a lot) - https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbo8pyvsuoyibqg/Mod%20List.xlsx?dl=0

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5zlvor16piy2wp/output_log.txt?dl=0

Persistent SFS: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tmbfmis62werres/persistent.sfs?dl=0

I'm having an odd problem! I just came back from a summer working out of town and installed a fresh KSP with a myriad of mods (link to spreadsheet above). Everything SEEMS to be functioning well, except I noticed that my Kerbals were not using TAC resources (they are added to the ships) on my Career save. There are also no TAC buttons/menus appearing on the space centre, VAB, or flight scenes. In addition I was never prompted to activate TAC when starting or when reloading the save. However on Sandbox saves I am prompted and it appears to be fully functional. I tried making new Science and Career Saves and TAC did not work for either type of save. I imagine it is a conflict with on of the older mods, so I will be adding them one at a time, but I figured somebody may be able to see the problem in the Log or SFS files.

Thanks in advance!

[TaranisElsu]

Hey Taranis,

I was checking out your calculations sheet to balance up some parts and I noticed that you're using 1 electric charge = 1kw. You're right that this is a common value amongst a lot of mods, but it doesn't balance well with the solar panels in game.

Looking at the panels on Mir and the ISS, they produce an average of 90w per square meter. But the in-game panels produce an average of 1.82 units per square meter. 1820w vs 90w makes the in-game panels massively overpowered so there's never any problem powering stuff that uses real world energy levels.

For universal storage I set the electric charge unit so that in-game panels are about the same as real world panels, giving 1 unit = 33w. This means that parts based on real stuff like the recyclers, require a realistic number of panels to run, or at least powering the recyclers is something that needs to be thought about.

http://www.kingtiger.co.uk/kingtiger/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/KSP-Power-units-value.jpg

Thanks for the info, Paul. I ended up balancing the capsule power needs around the stock probe cores instead of real values, and the converters are kind of arbitrary still. I tried to find good numbers for the power needs, but did not feel like the numbers that I found were that great.

[TaranisElsu]

KSP: 0.24.2

Modlist: excel file (there are a lot) - https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbo8pyvsuoyibqg/Mod%20List.xlsx?dl=0

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5zlvor16piy2wp/output_log.txt?dl=0

Persistent SFS: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tmbfmis62werres/persistent.sfs?dl=0

I'm having an odd problem! I just came back from a summer working out of town and installed a fresh KSP with a myriad of mods (link to spreadsheet above). Everything SEEMS to be functioning well, except I noticed that my Kerbals were not using TAC resources (they are added to the ships) on my Career save. There are also no TAC buttons/menus appearing on the space centre, VAB, or flight scenes. In addition I was never prompted to activate TAC when starting or when reloading the save. However on Sandbox saves I am prompted and it appears to be fully functional. I tried making new Science and Career Saves and TAC did not work for either type of save. I imagine it is a conflict with on of the older mods, so I will be adding them one at a time, but I figured somebody may be able to see the problem in the Log or SFS files.

Thanks in advance!

Yay! A log file! And more!

Some things that I noticed in your log file -- probably not related:

• There are a lot of exceptions being thrown in KConfigDocumentationGenerator, which looks like it comes from KineTechAnimationLibrary? That is not a mod that I have played with so I do not know what is causing those errors, nor what effects they would have. Try updating and/or temporarily removing that mod and see what changes?
  
• Lots of NullReferenceException's from the Clouds dll, i.e. EVE. I've seen that a lot too and have not seen any problems related to it. Hopefully that is/will get fixed in EVE:Overhaul.
  

This one concerns me because it gets thrown when KSP is loading "Scenarios", which is how I save the vessel data for my mod.

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at TarsierSpaceTech.TSTProgressTracker.OnLoad (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ScenarioModule.Load (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ScenarioRunner.AddModule (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ProtoScenarioModule.Load (.ScenarioRunner host) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ScenarioRunner+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Try updating and/or temporarily removing Tarsier Space Technology and see what changes.

After some more digging, I think the Tarsier Space Technology error is the cause because I notice that some of my classes never get instantiated while others do. It is consistent with what I would expect from that error.

See what I can do with info? That is why I have asked, and begged, and pleaded for log files.

Edited September 15, 2014 by TaranisElsu

[cptk1ng]

After some more digging, I think the Tarsier Space Technology error is the cause because I notice that some of my classes never get instantiated while others do. It is consistent with what I would expect from that error.

That did it! Hooray, you saved me a lot of time. Hopefully there is a Tarsier update soon, I have the most recent version but it was released for 0.24

• There are a lot of exceptions being thrown in KConfigDocumentationGenerator, which looks like it comes from KineTechAnimationLibrary? That is not a mod that I have played with so I do not know what is causing those errors, nor what effects they would have. Try updating and/or temporarily removing that mod and see what changes?
  

Kinetech is a part of B9 I believe, it's not something I have downloaded separately. I'll see if I can figure out what it's actually for.

Yay! A log file! And more! ... See what I can do with info? That is why I have asked, and begged, and pleaded for log files.

Thanks for the help! Glad I could do it right

[caipi]

TL;DR - I will not be accepting any problem reports for the Windows 64-bit version.

I have been spending time testing in the Windows 64-bit version and my conclusion is that the 64-bit has serious bugs and stability issues that I cannot attribute to any mod, even my own. I even installed a whole bunch of mods that I do not normally run with to increase the memory used by KSP (to over 5 GB!).

Mhm, strange, I am running your mod in Windows (together with a bunch of other mods, most prominently the one's from roverdude) and I am running the 64 bit client without any issues.

Did you try using opengl under windows? It really resolved a lot of issues for me and it seems rather stable (at least as stable as the 64 bit version under linux).

If you don't know how to use opengl under windows: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/93045-Windows-and-64bit-client-how-to-avoid-most-bugs-%28opengl-d3d11%29

I know, the game is not as pretty under opengl, but stability is more important and the 64bit client has too much advantages over the 32 bit client in my opinion.

Edited September 15, 2014 by caipi

[NathanKell]

If you have to reduce the 64bit client's memory usage to under the 32bit process limit (by using OpenGL mode) then you no longer get any advantage. All you get is questionable stability, right-click bugs, and...the same memory limit as 32bit.

[acc]

Just want to say I had never problems/bugs/etc with this version, even with tarsier space tech and even under win-64 client.

[RussianIvan]

is it possible to disable the death?

[TheNorthFace]

Big shout out to TAC life support! I've spent a good 2 hours now looking over all the math and reasoning behind your values, and it's great to see you made a serious effort to simulate realistic consumption/storage/waste/etc.

I noticed that a kerbal will produce more waste water than they drink water, (0.2417 U/day Water in, 0.3078 U/day WasteWater out, 127% more), and the water purifier runs at 90% efficiency, resulting in being able to infinitely recycle your own waste water into drinking water.

Do you know if this is true in real life too, in the ISS? Do they only need to resupply the ISS with food, and simply continuously recycle the water they drank + water from the food they eat?

[Zamite]

Big shout out to TAC life support! I've spent a good 2 hours now looking over all the math and reasoning behind your values, and it's great to see you made a serious effort to simulate realistic consumption/storage/waste/etc.

I noticed that a kerbal will produce more waste water than they drink water, (0.2417 U/day Water in, 0.3078 U/day WasteWater out, 127% more), and the water purifier runs at 90% efficiency, resulting in being able to infinitely recycle your own waste water into drinking water.

Do you know if this is true in real life too, in the ISS? Do they only need to resupply the ISS with food, and simply continuously recycle the water they drank + water from the food they eat?

Please allow me to point you at this article: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast02nov_1/

Its a bit outdated but I believe still true.

Even with intense conservation and recycling efforts, the Space Station will gradually lose water because of inefficiencies in the life support system."We will always need resupply, because none of the water reprocessing technology that is available right now for space flight ... is 100 percent efficient. So there's always some minimal loss," said Marybeth Edeen, deputy assistant manager of environmental control and life support at NASA's Johnson Space Center.

Water is lost by the Space Station in several ways: the water recycling systems produce a small amount of unusable brine; the oxygen-generating system consumes water; air that's lost in the air locks takes humidity with it; and the CO2 removal systems leach some water out of the air, to name a few.

Additionally I do not believe it is possible for a human to live by excreting more water than they consume every day.

[Paul Kingtiger]

Big shout out to TAC life support! I've spent a good 2 hours now looking over all the math and reasoning behind your values, and it's great to see you made a serious effort to simulate realistic consumption/storage/waste/etc.

I noticed that a kerbal will produce more waste water than they drink water, (0.2417 U/day Water in, 0.3078 U/day WasteWater out, 127% more), and the water purifier runs at 90% efficiency, resulting in being able to infinitely recycle your own waste water into drinking water.

Do you know if this is true in real life too, in the ISS? Do they only need to resupply the ISS with food, and simply continuously recycle the water they drank + water from the food they eat?

A lot of the water consumed is in the food, which is why there is more going in that out.

So in a sense they are bring water up to the ISS whenever they bring in fresh fruit or processed meat products (which you have to do to maintain good morale).

On the other hand poo contains a fair amount of water and I don't think this is reclaimed on the ISS. Presumably the machinery required to do so is not worth the cost in weight or power or it's just not feasible in space with current technology.

So I'd be interested to know how much water is lost per day that can't be reclaimed.

[RedAV8R]

It's just not fresh fruit and meat either. ISS food isn't freeze dried stuff of yesteryear anymore when water had to be added to everything. Now, think more like MREs. Heat/cool and go. FWIW the latest ATV-5 mission brought up ~850L of water.

[panarchist]

A lot of the water consumed is in the food, which is why there is more going in that out.

So in a sense they are bring water up to the ISS whenever they bring in fresh fruit or processed meat products (which you have to do to maintain good morale).

On the other hand poo contains a fair amount of water and I don't think this is reclaimed on the ISS. Presumably the machinery required to do so is not worth the cost in weight or power or it's just not feasible in space with current technology.

So I'd be interested to know how much water is lost per day that can't be reclaimed.

Water in feces is separated out and collected into a liquid storage tank. It's not processed. Urine *is* processed back into potable water. It's not effective to process fecal water because quite a bit needs to be done to eliminate bacteria and trace elements. Urine, OTOH, is nearly sterile when collected.

Typically about 1/3 of the mass of food on ISS is water. (the exact numbers are in the Advanced Baseline document that TaranisElsu links to in his spreadsheet)

For those doing the math - the key element is that input mass = output mass. i.e.:

Water + Food + Oxygen = Wastewater + Waste + CO2

Water won't equal wastewater. And these numbers are by mass, whereas the numbers in TAC LS are units of volume.

[FluffySilverUnicorn]

I finally decided to give this a try, and I love it so far! I had a thought, maybe something like a stasis chamber for incredibly long-haul trips could be used to preserve resources.

[acc]

Btw. most of the "space food" is dehydrated. They need to add the water in space just before they eat it.

[munseeker]

I finally decided to give this a try, and I love it so far! I had a thought, maybe something like a stasis chamber for incredibly long-haul trips could be used to preserve resources.

But wouldn't the stasis chamber be at least as heavy to bring as a bunch of the large life support containers? I'd rather bring those.

[Sophistry]

But wouldn't the stasis chamber be at least as heavy to bring as a bunch of the large life support containers? I'd rather bring those.

True, but it could be a useful safety net for newer players who aren't sure how long it would take to get to another planet and back, and so are unsure how much life support equipment to bring. But there should be some penalties for such an "easy mode" device.

[Aedile]

True, but it could be a useful safety net for newer players who aren't sure how long it would take to get to another planet and back, and so are unsure how much life support equipment to bring. But there should be some penalties for such an "easy mode" device.

Well, if it's heavy enough you'd need to decide. Also it'll probably need power etc.