Do you think rocket construction will ever "take time"?

[zynar]

I'm a big fan of the "parts cost money and time" idea. You can launch a quick mission if you have ordered extra parts but it removes the I built and launched a 7 mainsail asparagus launcher in 3 min.

Maybe tie it to the tier system ie T1 parts take x days to be delivered and T2 parts take y days to be delivered.

Just my .02

[Holo]

Well, rocket construction taking time is kind of in the game already. Don't you spend quite a while building your rockets? Doesn't that count as "construction time"?

It would be great if you actually read the post

[SyberSmoke]

Ok lets see...where to start. I have mixed feelings about building the ship and it then taking in game time to be assembled. I feel that the time I spend in the VAB should be accounted for and the clock should not stop, may be tick slower, but not stop. That said, making a new ship and three days skipping past...hurm...no.

I would put forward that instead of time passing for the ship to be built, time passes for the parts to be built. What is the difference? Well the interface shows that there will be a limited supply of parts. These are probably parts you have on hand and have already payed for. So, that in mind you could have two ways of getting more parts.

1. Instantly and by paying the full part cost. So you need a tank right now...you can buy it from Jeb and call it a day.

2. Order the part and wait a period of time. This means you have to plan ahead a little, may be go on another flight with the parts you have. But ordering it and having them take time to be made and delivered gives you a discount on the cost...say 25%. So that spiffy science goody that costs 10,000Cr now only cost you 7,500Cr...that is good for your budget!

This makes it a clear trade off, you can wait and get parts for less, or you can buy them right away and they cost more. And this way it does not effect the way the ships are built, but can effect your budgeting if you get do not plan ahead a little.

[rosenkranz]

I suspect simplifying this having a mod figure the 'time-to-build' and interface with KAC (because who doesn't use KAC) to create an alarm might be the better way to start as a proof-of-concept. If you find it to much of a PITA then so be it.

The KAC alarm is a simple UT offset alarm so this won't limit you or restrict you in any way. If you want you can time warp on the pad or go back to the VAB or launch for testing to make sure the design is right.

Me, here is how I would use such a mod...

Design the ship, launch to the pad and use the mod to generate the KAC alarm. Then probably launch it (several times) to make sure it will get to orbit. Then revert back to the pad and time warp until the KAC alarm (or whatever other alarm wants attention). Then launch as normal.

If I have other mission that I could be working on in the meantime, I could switch to them. KAC is global so it doesn't matter what the active ship is.

Just a thought as it can be easy to bite off more than you really wanna chew.

[AmpsterMan]

Just my $0.02

A pertinent question about KSP is what kind of a game is it?

The latest update is something that Harv has been wanting to bring about since at the very least May If you notice, his graph shows three things that KSP is about: Flight, Construction, and Career. Science and Technology are the first step in the direction for Career. Many (Please note, I don't think SQUAD has recently said anything on the following matter) expect costs and rewards in terms of money to be a logical next step. Seeing as Money and Time are closely related, I don't think it would be all unfair to include a Time aspect to the equation of what KSP's Career Mode will ultimately be.

KSP has drawn inspiration from both Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space and Orbiter. It shows! The Space Center screen has an awefully similar resemblance to BARIS' main screen, yet the gameplay is like Orbiter with Two-Body Orbits. The real genius of KSP is in the use of the Kerbals and the Construction of one's own space craft as far as I am concerned. If you feel that adding a time element might make the game a little bit more like BARIS, that is because the game for as long as I can recall, has been toted to be a bit like a BARIS/Orbiter/LEGO hybrid with little green men as protagonists. If you notice, each of those three games fall very neatly in each of the three areas of the graph. The issue is that KSP didn't develop them simultaneously but rather in parts. We are on the last leg of it.

Now, for the question of time? I'm for it. I think if it is forgiving enough and intuitive enough to be implemented seamlessly, it would add a very nice extra layer of complexity to the game with out making it more complicated. That is, I agree if the Complexity-to-Complication Ratio is relatively high.

[jfjohnny5]

If you feel that adding a time element might make the game a little bit more like BARIS, that is because the game for as long as I can recall, has been toted to be a bit like a BARIS/Orbiter/LEGO hybrid with little green men as protagonists.

Yeah that has been my impression for a while. I guess part of why I asked the question in the first place was to get a feel for if other people have the same impression. I think the response is a bit mixed. So here's to hoping Squad can find an elegant way to add "time" to the KSP mix. I'm confident they won't disappoint!

[Ekku Zakku]

Is there a dev thread yet Ekku?

Not yet, I just want to have a little bit more done (a simple working thing with no major bugs like the SOI change problem I have with it now). I'll let you all know here when I make it! Might be by this weekend, since I'm quite interested in spending my evenings until then coding it. This will be my first real programming project that isn't school-related lol. Don't worry though, I've always been a natural at programming XD I'll definitely get it made, it's just a matter of managing my free time.

[Lazro]

This would work ONLY if two other things happen. One, you can store rockets and subassemblies for later, and two, that running a space center takes money. You pay mission control, astronaut trainers, etc. for a reason, you know. That way it would be impossible to exploit the system by building infinite rockets forever, and at the same time have your rockets on-call.

Obviously build times would be scaled down to account for it. At most on the order of a week for Whackjovian creations.

[Ekku Zakku]

It's true that build times should be scaled down for the Kerbal universe, I can't believe I only just realized it lol. Because the system is scaled down and things happen so quickly, a transfer window will pass by faster than one would in reality. Thus, in order to avoid passing over those windows, the time to build should of course be scaled down. If this will end up being a feature of KSP, and there are no options to determine how long the user feels like they should wait, then a scaled down build time will be the only way to do it.

Of course, it will be trivial to make options for a mod, and mine will let anybody chose their desired wait time =3

[samstarman5]

Not sure if this has been brought up, I am late to the discussion and wow did this thread get big, but time is passing while you are working on a craft in the VAB/SPH, to where you can lose a good launch window to get to a craft in Kerbin orbit and have to wait for up to a Kerbin day to get it again. That can become an issue if that craft is ultimately meant for a mission to another planet.

As for getting a buildtime for a designed craft, to where you have to wait for it before you get to launch it, I am going to side with No. It is a novel idea, I will grant. But KSP is about launching rockets, not dealing with space program bureaucracy. Such a detail is very niche, and would be a deterrent to many gamers who are attracted to making a rocket on a whim and launching it just to see if it won't explode. Having to employ timewarp or wait for it will get very old very quickly. As was stated, such a feature can be employed on your own by establishing your own timetable based on the size of the rocket, and just not putting out on the pad until the set time occurs. This kind of feature does not need to be implemented as an established rule.

[Deadweasel]

The way I understand this happening, it's not a span of time you actually have to WAIT through, but rather the game time is simply advanced by that amount when you go to launch, simulating the passage of time required to build and stage your vessel.

So it's not really a forced wait period, so much as addressing the fact that you can currently spend as long as you want in the assembly buildings and see that nothing at all has happened in the meantime.

I get the logic and it does make sense, it's just not one of those things I can say I've ever actually noticed as missing. The way it is now is kind of like how time just freezes if you're working on a layout in the Sims games, as an example.

[magnemoe]

The way I understand this happening, it's not a span of time you actually have to WAIT through, but rather the game time is simply advanced by that amount when you go to launch, simulating the passage of time required to build and stage your vessel.

So it's not really a forced wait period, so much as addressing the fact that you can currently spend as long as you want in the assembly buildings and see that nothing at all has happened in the meantime.

I get the logic and it does make sense, it's just not one of those things I can say I've ever actually noticed as missing. The way it is now is kind of like how time just freezes if you're working on a layout in the Sims games, as an example.

It has to be an real time you can timewarp past as you might have other launch windows or maneuverer you must do. In 0.22 I launched a ship at the first launch window who came up.

[comham]

Build time for rockets would be a nice addition.

[Aragosnat]

Yeah. Like the part of time being on the part more so then the finished craft.

[Millitron]

I personally think it's a great idea for career mode. Say you've got a ship that due to some failure, is now sub-orbital, yet with no safe way to land. Currently, you can build a rescue ship and get to the stricken vessel in just a few minutes. Having construction take time would mean you would need to have a rescue craft on standby, instead of just throwing one together when something goes wrong.

[Superfluous J]

HarvesteR answered this, at least partially, in the AMA today:

HarvesteR: I assume this is about having time actually passing in the simulation while you’re building? I’m not sure I’d like to have that, since when you’re building a ship, you're focused on construction, and I wouldn't like it if the game kept interrupting me over things that are happening outside the construction facility. In KSP, you take on the role of many different ‘jobs’ on an actual space program. You get to be Mission Controller, Aerospace Engineer, victim intrepid Pilot, so the game helps you out in doing all those jobs yourself by leaving you free to not care about other areas while you’re focused on a single one.

[FenrirWolf]

It seems that he didn't interpret the question quite the same way as this topic proposes it, but some of the answers are applicable regardless.

[Ekku Zakku]

Alright, sorry it's been so long without any word on my mod, but I got swamped with work and school stuff. I got pretty near to an initial release around last Tuesday, but haven't put the last few touches on it yet. Expect the development thread tomorrow though!

So far, I implemented a "warp to launch" button that does exactly what it says on the tin, checking of other vehicle SOI changes during warp, and to prevent a vehicle from launching while it's in its construction time, I currently remove all the fuel from the vessel. I will later be removing the ship from the launchpad entirely, and adding it to a list of ships in construction, but that involves a bunch of GUI stuff and saving craft to a file, so I'm saving that for later. Also the current build time I have implemented is just taken directly from the cost, where 1 unit of currency = 1 second. I think later on I want to have it related to both cost and part count, but I'm not sure how I'll do that just yet. With the source code available, I suppose anybody can suggest how best to go about that XD

I want to avoid implementing KAC entirely, since I think that should be the player's choice, but it would of course be highly recommended due to such a big time element being involved.

[OrtwinS]

HarvesteR answered this, at least partially, in the AMA today:

HarvesteR: I assume this is about having time actually passing in the simulation while you’re building? I’m not sure I’d like to have that, since when you’re building a ship, you're focused on construction, and I wouldn't like it if the game kept interrupting me over things that are happening outside the construction facility. In KSP, you take on the role of many different ‘jobs’ on an actual space program. You get to be Mission Controller, Aerospace Engineer, victim intrepid Pilot, so the game helps you out in doing all those jobs yourself by leaving you free to not care about other areas while you’re focused on a single one.

Actually he didn't.

Because of poor phrasing Harvester misunderstood the question. (see the first sentence of Harvesters response)

This is NOT about time continuing during designing vessels, nobody wants that.

This is about vessels getting insta-build upon pressing 'launch'. Which allows people to construct a 6 vessel 4k-part mission to Duna the day before the launch window.

The proposed mechanic would start a timer first, and depending on vessel complexity and build-experience (number of times you already used those parts) your vessel is done a few months in-game-time later.

Such would only force players to plan ahead, and it would deny our current ability to insta-build rescue missions.

This has been explained dozens of times already, but nobody seems to care about reading.

edit: Nice work Ekku, count me in for testing.

[regex]

Actually he didn't.

Well he kind of did because anything involving time where timewarping is concerned is kind of dumb.

This is about vessels getting insta-build upon pressing 'launch'. Which allows people to construct a 6 vessel 4k-part mission to Duna the day before the launch window.

Why exactly is this a problem to be solved? You can already roleplay it to your heart's content and it doesn't bother the rest of us who can suspend their disbelief for a game about little green men launching rockets.

Such would only force players to plan ahead, and it would deny our current ability to insta-build rescue missions.

No it wouldn't, it'd force them to do a bunch more timewarping and less actual flying. Miss the launch window? Now you're punished for "lack of planning" and have to timewarp for three minutes when you should be flying a rocket.

This most certainly belongs in a mod, and not the actual game, because it promotes waiting instead of active gameplay.

Edited November 25, 2013 by regex
how do I grammar

[rosenkranz]

Which is why I suggested KAC alarm to start with to kind of play test the concept with the honor system. I suspect there is going to be some balancing of the algorithum to calc the time required to find what gives the best gameplay vs hassle. Of course those that don't want to deal with it don't have to use the mod.

Ekku, I know you don't want to create a dependency on KAC but would it be possible to give the option if KAC is handy?

[borisvolodnikov]

This most certainly belongs in a mod, and not the actual game, because it promotes waiting instead of active gameplay.

^^^^^this.

[Ekku Zakku]

Which is why I suggested KAC alarm to start with to kind of play test the concept with the honor system. I suspect there is going to be some balancing of the algorithum to calc the time required to find what gives the best gameplay vs hassle. Of course those that don't want to deal with it don't have to use the mod.

Ekku, I know you don't want to create a dependency on KAC but would it be possible to give the option if KAC is handy?

Well, I'll see how things go when I further along, but I don't see why not. I'd probably have to detect if the player is using KAC or not, and if so, interact with it in order to create alarms. I'm not quite sure how I'd do that right now XD

[Deadweasel]

It's amazing...

Interjections about how this should just be a mod, slotted right in between posts about the development of the mod. -__-

I know there are a lot of pages folks, but it's not all that hard to skim them over and get caught up on the convo...

[regex]

It's amazing...

Interjections about how this should just be a mod, slotted right in between posts about the development of the mod. -__-

I know there are a lot of pages folks, but it's not all that hard to skim them over and get caught up on the convo...

I've been with the conversation from a few pages in, maybe you should skim a bit yourself? Anyway, my post was more related to Harvester's perceived "misunderstanding" of the question. I think he interpreted correctly regarding this "feature".