[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[taniwha]

You can edit the source and recompile. But other than that, yeah, installing Kethane is the only way. However, you need only the dll, not the parts.

[Sigma88]

You can edit the source and recompile. But other than that, yeah, installing Kethane is the only way. However, you need only the dll, not the parts.

I will definitely try that.

I suppose with ore/metal/rocketparts you can build just the parts without fuel right? the fuel has to be added after creation?

So I will need some way to make fuel...

I was leaning towards using karbonite, but I'd rather use water to produce liquid fuel (H2) and oxidant (O2) rather than using a karbonite/kethane powered engine....

For the other kinds of fuel I have no idea....

After the first trials to get comfortable with this mod I'd say my fist big goal will be making a big mun base, completely self sustainable (life support included) with at least 20 Kerbals all named "Sambell Kerman"

[taniwha]

Eww, LiquidFuel is not H2, by any stretch of the imagination: Liquid fuel has a density of 1t/m³. Liquid hydrogen has a density of about 0.0714t/m³ (ie, you need about 14m³ to store one ton of liquid hydrogen).

KSP's LiquidFuel and Oxidizer densities are a little wrong individually, but the effective density of RP-1 (a form of kerosene) and liquid oxygen works out to about 1t/m³, so overall, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer are best considered to be RP-1 and liquid oxygen.

The density "cheat" of 1400% for KSPi's handling of liquid fuel is far worse than the Isp cheat of 30% (390s vs 300s) for stock's handling of liquid fuel, and thus EL will never support KSPi (or ORS) by my hands (until that absurdity is fixed). You cannot make LiquidFuel from water because you need a lot of carbon to go with that. If I remember correctly, RP-1 works out to C₁₂H₁₆ on average.

[Joshwoo70]

Eww, LiquidFuel is not H2, by any stretch of the imagination: Liquid fuel has a density of 1t/m³. Liquid hydrogen has a density of about 0.0714t/m³ (ie, you need about 14m³ to store one ton of liquid hydrogen).

KSP's LiquidFuel and Oxidizer densities are a little wrong individually, but the effective density of RP-1 (a form of kerosene) and liquid oxygen works out to about 1t/m³, so overall, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer are best considered to be RP-1 and liquid oxygen.

The density "cheat" of 1400% for KSPi's handling of liquid fuel is far worse than the Isp cheat of 30% (390s vs 300s) for stock's handling of liquid fuel, and thus EL will never support KSPi (or ORS) by my hands (until that absurdity is fixed). You cannot make LiquidFuel from water because you need a lot of carbon to go with that. If I remember correctly, RP-1 works out to C₁₂H₁₆ on average.

What is this? Chemistry?

[taniwha]

What is this? Chemistry?

Yup. I suggest you take a look at EL's smelter config }:>

[Sigma88]

Eww, LiquidFuel is not H2, by any stretch of the imagination: Liquid fuel has a density of 1t/m³. Liquid hydrogen has a density of about 0.0714t/m³ (ie, you need about 14m³ to store one ton of liquid hydrogen).

KSP's LiquidFuel and Oxidizer densities are a little wrong individually, but the effective density of RP-1 (a form of kerosene) and liquid oxygen works out to about 1t/m³, so overall, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer are best considered to be RP-1 and liquid oxygen.

The density "cheat" of 1400% for KSPi's handling of liquid fuel is far worse than the Isp cheat of 30% (390s vs 300s) for stock's handling of liquid fuel, and thus EL will never support KSPi (or ORS) by my hands (until that absurdity is fixed). You cannot make LiquidFuel from water because you need a lot of carbon to go with that. If I remember correctly, RP-1 works out to C₁₂H₁₆ on average.

I'm really not that kind of scientist I understand chemistry and If you explain physics stuff I think I can follow you, but I've absolutely no Idea of what is or isn't unrealistic/cheaty....

I thought H2 could be used as liquid fuel (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/hydrogen/hydrogen_fuel_of_choice.html)

I am always open to suggestions

[colmo]

Are there any new models due for EPL? Given the quality of the modelling in the latest mods (e.g. Karbonite), and the application of TweakScale and Firespitter to reduce what I think of as 'Hexcan Hell' (many duplicate parts of varying size and function), an art pass would really tempt me to have another crack at this.

[taniwha]

Sigma88: Oh, you most certainly can use liquid H₂ (Lhyd) as fuel (the RealFuels mod lets you do so in KSP). The problem is, the tanks are huge.

[Sigma88]

Sigma88: Oh, you most certainly can use liquid H₂ (Lhyd) as fuel (the RealFuels mod lets you do so in KSP). The problem is, the tanks are huge.

I was aware that it could have been an issue, given that my link states liqH2 is used only on upper stages

Would they be really big also for just a mun liftoff? I'm not planning to use them from kerbin anyways...

-edit-

I would also add that if you want realism and plan on using fuels with carbon you should be careful, I think irl you would get a lot of environmentalists breathing on your neck for that...

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sigma88

[taniwha]

Environmentalists will breath down your neck for breathing: forget about them. RP-1 is extremely common as a lower stage fuel.

As for the size of LHyd tanks, it doesn't matter where you are, those tanks will be huge for a given mass of LHyd. I believe LHyd works well in upper stages because you can get away with smaller (and thus less massive) engines: when in orbit, your TWR is infinite The higher Isp and smaller engines make up for the larger tanks.

[forsaken1111]

What's funny is in the prototype flowchart for the resource system that the devs were supposed to implement in KSP, liquidfuel was pretty obviously supposed to be hydrogen because you could produce LF and Oxidizer from water. I think that is where KSPI got the LF = H2

[Nori]

I was aware that it could have been an issue, given that my link states liqH2 is used only on upper stages

Would they be really big also for just a mun liftoff? I'm not planning to use them from kerbin anyways...

-edit-

I would also add that if you want realism and plan on using fuels with carbon you should be careful, I think irl you would get a lot of environmentalists breathing on your neck for that...

If you want to see what a H2 tank should look like try installing Near Future Propulsion (and Electrical if you actually want to use the engines). He has H2 tanks in there to work with a few of his engines and also to "fix" the NERVA to use H2 like it should.

Also it is a awesome mod.

Also, if you do end up wanting to use Karbonite (and some sort of H2 engines) send me a message and I can give you my configs to convert Karbonite to H2.

[taniwha]

forsaken1111: You've misread the chart. LiquidFuel comes from Propellium, which comes from Water and something else from underground (or from Eve's oceans, which are presumably not water).

[forsaken1111]

forsaken1111: You've misread the chart. LiquidFuel comes from Propellium, which comes from Water and something else from underground (or from Eve's oceans, which are presumably not water).

It looks to me that its saying you can separate propellium out from water or get it from the pump drill, not that it requires both. Regardless, I was just conjecturing that this is where KSPI got the idea. I have no stake in either side of the debate and honestly think that trying to assign 'real world' values to anything in a video game is an exercise in futility.

[Sigma88]

It looks to me that its saying you can separate propellium out from water or get it from the pump drill, not that it requires both. Regardless, I was just conjecturing that this is where KSPI got the idea. I have no stake in either side of the debate and honestly think that trying to assign 'real world' values to anything in a video game is an exercise in futility.

I'll see which way to go when I'll be ready for it, thanks to everybody for the help!

[taniwha]

Sigma88: JUst to be clear, I was not saying you should not use KSPi, but only that I do not like its treatment of LiquidFuel (and why).

[cy-one]

Is there a shortcut to hide the "Build Resources" window in the VAB?

[Kaa253]

The density "cheat" of 1400% for KSPi's handling of liquid fuel is far worse than the Isp cheat of 30% (390s vs 300s) for stock's handling of liquid fuel, and thus EL will never support KSPi (or ORS) by my hands (until that absurdity is fixed). You cannot make LiquidFuel from water because you need a lot of carbon to go with that. If I remember correctly, RP-1 works out to C₁₂H₁₆ on average.

KSPi I did install for a time last year and after about a month it had succeeded in driving me to the point of not enjoying KSP any more so I uninstalled it and started a new career. I doubt I will ever use it again. I concede that it has one or two aspects that I found to be quite good, such as the inverse square law treatment of solar radiation. It is a well done mod, it just doesn't fit with my taste in KSP play style.

But you have piqued my curiosity. Where exactly do you see a "cheat"/absurdity in ORS, which may or may not have originated from KSPi?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Kaa253

[Sigma88]

Sigma88: JUst to be clear, I was not saying you should not use KSPi, but only that I do not like its treatment of LiquidFuel (and why).

I understand that

for my first career (now science sandbox) I am not really looking to 100% realism.

I have added mods to make it more realistic such as tacls and remote tech and I don't use mechjeb or hyperedit, but for now I'm happy to have a game that is hard enough to be entertaining but not so hard that it's frustrating.

I was introduced to this game by scott manley's videos so I started already with KSPi installed.

After I feel accomplished enough with my current save I will for sure try the new career, and then I will make one with the most realism.

Putting this goals helps me enjoy this game for a longer time.

I am also looking for a good mod that adds other star systems, but I've found nothing yet.

[Aedile]

Eww, LiquidFuel is not H2, by any stretch of the imagination: Liquid fuel has a density of 1t/m³. Liquid hydrogen has a density of about 0.0714t/m³ (ie, you need about 14m³ to store one ton of liquid hydrogen).

KSP's LiquidFuel and Oxidizer densities are a little wrong individually, but the effective density of RP-1 (a form of kerosene) and liquid oxygen works out to about 1t/m³, so overall, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer are best considered to be RP-1 and liquid oxygen.

The density "cheat" of 1400% for KSPi's handling of liquid fuel is far worse than the Isp cheat of 30% (390s vs 300s) for stock's handling of liquid fuel, and thus EL will never support KSPi (or ORS) by my hands (until that absurdity is fixed). You cannot make LiquidFuel from water because you need a lot of carbon to go with that. If I remember correctly, RP-1 works out to C₁₂H₁₆ on average.

All due respect, but you have no problem with kethane being cheaty and it's chemistry making no sense. You have problem with density being wrong, but no issue with some super duper element transmogrification.

In addition vanilla ksp units are not liters, 1 unit LF weighs exactly as much as one unit of OX - 5kg...

I agree LH is not H2, It cannot be H2, as KSP engines are 45% LF 55% LOX (by mass), which is not the correct ratio. The fact that the jet engines also use it is the second clue of being kerosene/rp-1, but fuel ratio is pretty off for that as well...

Could be hydrazine (talking about toxic), udmh and N204 for oxidizer.

10 tons of LH2 weighs exactly same as 10 tons of anything else... The only difference will come from the tank weight. However looking that a RL tank which holds 100t LH2 (1479m3) and 630t LOX (553m3) weighs only 27 ton. A ksp tank which holds 100t LF weighs 15t. Any clue how much a tank holding 600t LOX weighs? Yup - 90.

Honestly, unless using realism overhaul, all this volume/density discussions are completely pointless.

KSPI does not make tanks fit more LF then they do in vanilla, neither changes how much engines consume. Now this is important - the engine needs 45/55 ratio, but the isru refinery will produce something like 20/80, so it makes completely no sense to refine anywhere else but the place of water extraction, otherwise you'll be carrying 40% oxidiser you don't need. So the fact which you claim makes it cheaty, in fact makes it less so.. So yes magical water or magical kethane, where is the 1400% cheat?

There are many cheaty things about KSPI, but honestly water to LF is the least cheaty one.

Also I don't know what cheaty there is about ORS. ORS does not define any converters or such, neither does it define any parts. So it does not imply what LF is whatsoever. ORS has nothing to fix about LF being H2...

[forsaken1111]

Aedile, its as if you've never seen a modder go on an ill-informed rant before!

[taniwha]

forsaken1111: Obveriously, neither have you.

Aedile: What makes you think I have no problems with Kethane? Mind you, my main problem with is was the xenon. At least as of 0.8.8 (or a little earlier?) Kethane is fully mass-conserving, so even if it has a wonky chemistry, it is at least internally consistent.

Not once have I ever stated that resource units are liters (note, however, that Real Fuels makes resource units be liters). I have, however, stated that they are 5 liters for at least LiquidFuel and Oxidizer, and if you look in EL's resource definitions, you'll see that I stick with this convention. One notable exception is Kethane which uses what seems to be 2.5 liters per resource unit. This makes Kethane's density works out to be about 0.8t/m³, but as Kethane converters work on mass rather than volume, the actual density doesn't particularly matter.

Yes, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer having the same density (0.005t/u, or 1t/m³) is a little bogus, but here's something funny: 1) their ratios are actually pretty close to that of RP-1 (0.81t/m³) and liquid oxygen (1.141t/m³) in real engines; 2) the overall density of the standard mix of RP-1 and liquid oxygen works out to be just over 1t/m³.

Hydrazine is fine for density, but you can't make it from just water. Ammonia, sure (I didn't look at its process, just its density and formula).

And even without Realism Overhaul, there is plenty of point in discussing densities in KSP: to keep the game consistent even with mods.

[passinglurker]

how possible would it be to instead of spawning a ship on a launch pad spawn it stored inside a hangar mod hangar? or deconstruct a ship inside a hangar and turn it into rocket parts, metal, or scrap metal?

[Aedile]

forsaken1111: Obveriously, neither have you.

Aedile: What makes you think I have no problems with Kethane? Mind you, my main problem with is was the xenon. At least as of 0.8.8 (or a little earlier?) Kethane is fully mass-conserving, so even if it has a wonky chemistry, it is at least internally consistent.

Not once have I ever stated that resource units are liters (note, however, that Real Fuels makes resource units be liters). I have, however, stated that they are 5 liters for at least LiquidFuel and Oxidizer, and if you look in EL's resource definitions, you'll see that I stick with this convention. One notable exception is Kethane which uses what seems to be 2.5 liters per resource unit. This makes Kethane's density works out to be about 0.8t/m³, but as Kethane converters work on mass rather than volume, the actual density doesn't particularly matter.

Yes, LiquidFuel and Oxidizer having the same density (0.005t/u, or 1t/m³) is a little bogus, but here's something funny: 1) their ratios are actually pretty close to that of RP-1 (0.81t/m³) and liquid oxygen (1.141t/m³) in real engines; 2) the overall density of the standard mix of RP-1 and liquid oxygen works out to be just over 1t/m³.

Hydrazine is fine for density, but you can't make it from just water. Ammonia, sure (I didn't look at its process, just its density and formula).

And even without Realism Overhaul, there is plenty of point in discussing densities in KSP: to keep the game consistent even with mods.

As far as chemistry is concerned, it's all about molar mass. Specific impulse also uses mass. This is why a hydrolox ingine can use so much more fuel (in volume), and still have almost the same or better ISP.

Volume does not matter, other than the size of the tank, and other technical aspects, such as pump pressures etc. KSP models ISP really poorly, so does units and tank weighs.

The 1unit being 1L or 5L is quite a stretch. Thing is you really cannot know. Planets are 10 times smaller than their mass would imply. Engines are much heavier than they should be. Tanks are much heavier than they should be. They are ridiculously heavy the 2.5m white barrel is 2 tons empty. Who is to say that in weird KSP world 1l of LF does not weigh 5kg?

I'm still waiting to see where is the supposed cheaty part KSPI water to LF, other than the wonky chemistry, which every mod seems to employ. KSPI preserves the mass, and as I said you actually have a big overproduction of OX which you need to vent off. Not every planet has water, and the refinery/extractor itself need a generator, and it's pretty bulky to begin with. If you ever played it you'll know that you cannot just go to another planet, refuel at lowest gravity sattelite, and move on. Some places you can make LFO, others you can make monoprop etc. That being said I haven't used KSPI for really long time, as i feel it has many other cheaty things, mainly the plasma engines, power network etc. Can easily build 40 km/s dv craft. Neither i have used kethane for that matter.

But all this is irrelevant for ORS. It just defines, or lets you define resources. There is also some resources community has agreed to add and share, so we don't have 10 types of water etc.

So some people are asking that EL will use ORS ore, and leave to them to find out the method of producing fuel, and decide how cheaty their game should be.

If you think about it, with contracts and budgets, EL is quite cheaty. You can mass produce gravometers at minmus (8.8k each) and send them back to kirbin. You can produce any infrastructure you need on site etc.

Most mods are cheaty to some extent, some would say FAR is cheaty. Even kerbal clock, precise node, engineer, real chute.

Then again, I'd say that asparagus is cheaty, as it exploits shortcomings of vanila KSP - Too heavy tanks, too heavy engines, tanks getting empty earlier then should - all benefiting asparagus.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Aedile

[taniwha]

First, why did you quote my whole and address only one point?

As far as chemistry is concerned, it's all about molar mass. Specific impulse also uses mass. This is why a hydrolox ingine can use so much more fuel (in volume), and still have almost the same or better ISP.

Volume does not matter, other than the size of the tank, and other technical aspects, such as pump pressures etc. KSP models ISP really poorly, so does units and tank weighs.

And that tank mass is critical. The mass of a tank is directly proportional to the volume of its contents for the same pressure. Delta-V is all about Isp and mass ratio.

The 1unit being 1L or 5L is quite a stretch. Thing is you really cannot know.

You very much can know. The jumbo-64 holds 6400u. It is a 7.5m long cylinder of 2.5m diameter. If you assume the internal shape is a hemisphere-capped 5m long cylinder with walls of ~12.4mm (ie, internal diameter of ~2.4752m)*, then the internal volume is 32m³. That gives 200u/m³, or 5L/u. All of the X200 tanks, and the FL-T tanks follow the same pattern. Note that the tank thickness scales too, though not quite linearly.

* Yes, this omits the separator between LF and O. Just reduce the thickness of the walls (increase the internal diamter) by a small amount

Planets are 10 times smaller than their mass would imply. Engines are much heavier than they should be. Tanks are much heavier than they should be. They are ridiculously heavy the 2.5m white barrel is 2 tons empty. Who is to say that in weird KSP world 1l of LF does not weigh 5kg?

I can't explain the engines (I haven't looked into them), but the tanks are easy: they're made of iron (density of 7.8t/m³, with ridiculously thick walls (10-13mm is way too much, even for aluminum)).

I'm still waiting to see where is the supposed cheaty part KSPI water to LF, other than the wonky chemistry, which every mod seems to employ.

And yet you quoted my one and only mention of "cheat" (where I used to word twice: once for stock). The part you missed was the density and thus the required tank size and thus tank mass. Stock tanks give a single stage a maximum (asymptotic) mass ratio of 9. The 1.3 factor between stock Isp vs realistic Isp for LF+O means that for realistic Isp, you'd need a mass ratio of ~17.4 (9^1.3) to get the same delta-v. I don't know at what pressure LHyd is stored (seems it may be 1 atmosphere, even, just very cold (20K)), but considering the need for insulation, getting a good mass ratio is challenging. Keeping things consistent, a mass ratio of 9 is unachievable (note: real tanks probably do get better than 9, but are not made of iron and certainly aren't 1cm thick).

As for the chemistry: Toss in carbon dioxide, or any other source of carbon, it matters not, and you can have your LiquidFuel with no quibbles from me (8H₂O + 12CO₂ + mucho energy -> C₁₂H₁₆* + 16O₂).

* Stoichiometric formula for RP-1.

KSPI preserves the mass, and as I said you actually have a big overproduction of OX which you need to vent off. Not every planet has water, and the refinery/extractor itself need a generator, and it's pretty bulky to begin with.

If you ever played it you'll know that you cannot just go to another planet, refuel at lowest gravity sattelite, and move on. Some places you can make LFO, others you can make monoprop etc. That being said I haven't used KSPI for really long time, as i feel it has many other cheaty things, mainly the plasma engines, power network etc. Can easily build 40 km/s dv craft. Neither i have used kethane for that matter.

I admit to never having played with KSPi. I've considered it, but I was told about the LiquidFuel=LHyd issue and decided against it. If that has changed, then yay.

But all this is irrelevant for ORS. It just defines, or lets you define resources. There is also some resources community has agreed to add and share, so we don't have 10 types of water etc.

So some people are asking that EL will use ORS ore, and leave to them to find out the method of producing fuel, and decide how cheaty their game should be.

In case you haven't noticed, I've been helping people do so. EL doesn't care where or how you get the RocketParts, just that you have them. The same goes for any other resource the craft may need.

If you think about it, with contracts and budgets, EL is quite cheaty. You can mass produce gravometers at minmus (8.8k each) and send them back to kirbin. You can produce any infrastructure you need on site etc.

It's called financial independence: having more passive income than your expenses, though EL isn't passive income.

Most mods are cheaty to some extent, some would say FAR is cheaty. Even kerbal clock, precise node, engineer, real chute.

Now you're pulling my leg.

• FAR: other than less drag and more lift, FAR actually makes things more difficult.
  
• Kerbal Alarm Clock: what, something to help watch a bouncing time display is cheating? Also, set the alarm too close to the event and you miss it while responding. Set it too far from the event and you still sit there watching the clock. And then there are complex fleet operations: using KAC isn't cheating; not using KAC is... madness?
  
• Precise Node: oh, yeah, it's "cheaty" being able to set a maneuver node that even MechJeb can't burn precisely.
  
• Kerbal Engineer: you still have to understand the information it gives you.
  
• Real Chutes: Uh, yeah, riiiiiiiiiight. Open chute at 100m (Kerbin) with stock chutes, land safely. Do the same with Real Chutes, sayonara.
  

Then again, I'd say that asparagus is cheaty, as it exploits shortcomings of vanila KSP - Too heavy tanks, too heavy engines, tanks getting empty earlier then should - all benefiting asparagus.

Actually, the only reason asparagus is "cheaty" is the infinite flow-rate of the fuel-lines. If flow rate issues could be overcome, NASA would be using asparagus staging. Actually, I seem to remember hearing about somebody (one of the private space companies?) experimenting with simple asparagus or maybe onion staging.