.23 - Just not getting the progression-path for science labs.

[jordanjay29]

You can also just put them on a capsule that weighs .8t and return that, for the same result, and a lot less dV usage.

Except you cannot re-use Goo Canisters and Science, Jr.'s via a mere capsule. It's probably not the most efficient to use a lab around the Mun, but putting a lab around someplace like Jool would save a lot of weight from bringing all those extra Goo and Science parts.

[SpaceToast]

Except you cannot re-use Goo Canisters and Science, Jr.'s via a mere capsule. It's probably not the most efficient to use a lab around the Mun, but putting a lab around someplace like Jool would save a lot of weight from bringing all those extra Goo and Science parts.

Nope. The lab alone weighs 3.5t. That's 17 Science Jr's. They are big and clunky, but light (comparatively) That's a lot of biomes/locations. That's also not taking into account the dV used from flying the lab out there, then flying to/from the lab and then back to another moon/location (for a max of 40% of the points), or then then flying the lab *back* to kerbin (especially when you can just dump the used goo canisters/materials bays and store the results on your lander capsule for 100% returns).

This is especially true when you account for the extra stuff needed (RCS fuel, ports) for docking, electricity and transmit antenna for the lab, solar cells, control (either probe core or *another* pod+crew), etc and the real life *time* needed for docking and rendevous.

Again, the math isn't there for using it, ever, really.

As per the return, kerbal EVA's can take the results, and store them in said .8t capsule.

I wish it was useable. I really do. KSP *needs* a reason for rovers and stations...or at least I wish it did.

Edited December 19, 2013 by SpaceToast

[SpaceToast]

Although I have to admit, the image that comes to mind of a mk-1 capsule with 17 radially attached goo and science canisters is hilarious. Where is whackjob when you need him?

[lazarus1024]

I think there need to be two things.

One, the cap on transmissions using the lab module needs to be upped.

Two, I think as biomes are added, more parts/tech tree needs to be expanded upward. I think think the values should necessarily be increased to get to every level, because if you are stuck grinding past Tier III and you've already done all of kerbin and minmus and are trying to do all the Mun biomes and still can't earn enough science to get past tier III parts, that is a problem.

I think we need to start introducing cool new parts and/or enhancements to existing parts to make it worth while continuing to go after more science. I don't think you should have to explore every single spot in the kerbal solar system to unlock every single science branch and tier, but you should have to do at least a good half of everything to do it. Which you don't need to do now and especially won't with Biomes added everywhere.

Neat things like VASMIR engines beyond the current top tier that take a TON of science, maybe nuclear reactors to power them (like the SNAP and TOPAZ reactors), that sort of thing. So you have the current top tier, but then you have some stuff even on top of the existing stuff that takes TONS of science. Like say, 2,000 science to unlock a fission reactor that can produce 500 units of energy per minute and weighs 2 tons. 2,000 science to unlock a VASMIR engine that produces 25 thrust, has an ISP of 1,800 and weighs 3t. Etc.

[SpaceToast]

I don't think you can up the cap without upping the transmission scalar on the base part. The problem is, if you do that, the transmit spam is back (on the cfg file, it's the scalar+reset that caps it), if I'm understanding what I looked at during lunch.

[Joel Dryden]

With that said. It's good to just land/orbit a bay, refine everything and gather all you can, get all the data into a capsule and then just take that back and then throw a tug out to get the science lab to where you want next. It's pretty good imo.

[Joel Dryden]

It's not needed cause you could get it all done without it. But seriously, why skip it if you're going to then complain it's useless? Just use it, find a way to make it work with rovers and such? Land one and a hab module or whatever, get the kerbals to all do their things, install TAC even so they need to hop out and eat and stuff, will make you need a small base to make them hop around to keep refinding data and getting science?

[antiquark]

How do you go about transferring science to a capsule? I spent a few minutes left-clicking and right-clicking here, there and everywhere, but there didn't seem to be a way to do it?

[pigletx2]

It's for long term missions and recycling. (This will be important when everything has a biome. Imagine a multi-year mission to the Jool system and sending everything home.) So you can continue to research out there while getting more information to get new stuff for bigger missions while still processing at Jool Base Alpha. And, if you have Kethane, use can land on a moon twice with one lander, and redo the experiments by cleaning them with the lab.

[Sabastian]

How do you go about transferring science to a capsule? I spent a few minutes left-clicking and right-clicking here, there and everywhere, but there didn't seem to be a way to do it?

EVA a kerbal close (you need to be very, very close) to the science module that you want to grab data from, right click the data module, then click "Collect Data."

[jordanjay29]

Nope. The lab alone weighs 3.5t. That's 17 Science Jr's. They are big and clunky, but light (comparatively) That's a lot of biomes/locations. That's also not taking into account the dV used from flying the lab out there, then flying to/from the lab and then back to another moon/location (for a max of 40% of the points), or then then flying the lab *back* to kerbin (especially when you can just dump the used goo canisters/materials bays and store the results on your lander capsule for 100% returns).

This is especially true when you account for the extra stuff needed (RCS fuel, ports) for docking, electricity and transmit antenna for the lab, solar cells, control (either probe core or *another* pod+crew), etc and the real life *time* needed for docking and rendevous.

Again, the math isn't there for using it, ever, really.

As per the return, kerbal EVA's can take the results, and store them in said .8t capsule.

I wish it was useable. I really do. KSP *needs* a reason for rovers and stations...or at least I wish it did.

You don't need to return the lab, just use it to clean the experiments once you transfer data to your capsule. That frees up the ridiculous amount of weight and fuel you need for hauling 17 Science Jr.'s around. The lab should never touch the ground once you get it in orbit, just refuel and move it to another SOI.

[Beachernaut]

You can also just put them on a capsule that weighs .8t and return that, for the same result, and a lot less dV usage.

I'm not as worried about weight as I am time. 1 flight to get the lab out to Mun, another to bring up my lander to gather the science, a bunch of flights on mun without leaving munar orbit, then home. A opposed to a dozen flights launched from Kerbin.

[SpaceToast]

Please do, I'd be curious to know. Thanks!

Here it is!

browse to your \Kerbal Space Program\GameData\Squad\Parts\Science\LargeCrewedLab folder.

Open the part.cfg file

Change this entry:

dataTransmissionBoost = 1.5

to

dataTransmissionBoost = 10.0

This will allow it to process science at the full point value that it would on a return to KSP!

[GangreneTVP]

This is complex and I'll have to think about it for a while... It does seem that data transfer has been nerfed to the point that I would never use it, unless the craft, or no part of it is ever coming back...

What if the lab gave a bonus like 150% science... performing lab tests on the scene, or in zero gravity could be beneficial to the research that can't be tested that way on the ground... I have seeds that were on the international space station at my house, science in space is used and beneficial. Also, you could do tests in space that can't be done on the surface... Take materials up for testing in Zero G's.

Each type of science should work differently though... a ground sample... can't be sent back via signal... maybe doing the lab gives the 50% bonus for testing it in space and then the other 100% could be done on the surface... A temp. scan, just give 100% for a transfer, no lab bonus(this gives value to having something to send the signal back)... The Goo... maybe seeing it's reaction live in the station(lab)... gives a bonus... it won't be like that when it's back on the ground right? You transfer the goo to the lab and get the bonus... The lab has extra goo to refill the test, reusable(like now). If you just transfer(radio) the goo back... nothing is like seeing it, or touching it... 50% return.

I'll think about it more.

[Sof]

This is complex and I'll have to think about it for a while... It does seem that data transfer has been nerfed to the point that I would never use it, unless the craft, or no part of it is ever coming back...

What if the lab gave a bonus like 150% science... performing lab tests on the scene, or in zero gravity could be beneficial to the research that can't be tested that way on the ground... I have seeds that were on the international space station at my house, science in space is used and beneficial. Also, you could do tests in space that can't be done on the surface... Take materials up for testing in Zero G's.

Each type of science should work differently though... a ground sample... can't be sent back via signal... maybe doing the lab gives the 50% bonus for testing it in space and then the other 100% could be done on the surface... A temp. scan, just give 100% for a transfer, no lab bonus(this gives value to having something to send the signal back)... The Goo... maybe seeing it's reaction live in the station(lab)... gives a bonus... it won't be like that when it's back on the ground right? You transfer the goo to the lab and get the bonus... The lab has extra goo to refill the test, reusable(like now). If you just transfer(radio) the goo back... nothing is like seeing it, or touching it... 50% return.

I'll think about it more.

But would that work for labs that have been landed on a moon or planet as a giant rover driving between biomes? There would need to be a way for it to detect the g-force.

[Sabastian]

Here it is!

browse to your \Kerbal Space Program\GameData\Squad\Parts\Science\LargeCrewedLab folder.

Open the part.cfg file

Change this entry:

dataTransmissionBoost = 1.5

to

dataTransmissionBoost = 10.0

This will allow it to process science at the full point value that it would on a return to KSP!

Don't you still run into the 40% transmit cap?

[Moonfrog]

I think the problem is that people are trying to balance the game. They should be thinking about it differently, why does transmitting give less points then taking it back? the data will be the same. Many people have suggested this that different experiments should have different requirements to be met.

Materials bay, should be for collecting materials - you can do two things with these.1. Transmit data back on an analysis of the materials(worth some science points). 2. You can take them back to be collected, put in a museum and studied further.(worth more science points).

That solves the problem, because transmitting and taking back is not competition anymore. Its separate.

My advice to SQUAD is this. Remove the competition completely between transmitting and returning. There will always be min maxers, people who will choose the best method over others. Just remove the competition. Get rid of this pointless 50% science points for transmitting.

This would also make science lab better. Science lab lets u perform additional experiments on materials or goo in different enviroments, earning Separate science points. Not a bonus, separate line of science.

Same thing mystery good, transmit back a report on the effects u can see with mystery good. Also when u return it, u get science for returning it.

This way u can still send a one way probe, transmit its results, then get better science, then do a return mission to get the other science points. Then send a lab, to do additional science.

By giving them all there own individual science section, removing the competition of which science method is better. You will fix this problem.

I may sound arrogant for saying this, but it will fix the problem. Also sound cynical for saying this, I doubt my suggestion will make it squads ears. I'm not the only one who suggested this, it was suggest ages back as well.

In a competition people always choose the best method, everything else becomes obsolete. That is the wrong way to go about in this game. Simple, give every action its separate ability to give science points.

[jordanjay29]

I think the problem is that people are trying to balance the game. They should be thinking about it differently, why does transmitting give less points then taking it back? the data will be the same. Many people have suggested this that different experiments should have different requirements to be met.

Samples that are returned allow for repeatable experiments and long-term study. Data cannot be re-verified or tested under different conditions.

[SpaceToast]

Don't you still run into the 40% transmit cap?

Nope, it maxes it at the same level as if you brought it back to KSP.

[Rastaman]

For science points, Kerbals have to look at the data in a lab, be it on Kerbin or in a mobile lab. This is happening now - the lab enhances the yield, but facilities on the ground are more sophisticated, so the return of stuff gives more points. Right now the first science pickup yields the lion's share of the total available science points, with further transmissions or missions giving less.

Idea: It could be the other way around.

The first time you get a sample from a biome, you don't know how much points it has until you process it at home or in a mobile lab. Whatever the yield, at first it's only a minor fraction of the final value. Once you have processed the data, you know where to look and get more of it in another mission. With a lab closeby, you know what to look for more quickly, and do not have to wait for transfer windows. Once you know more, you can return stuff to Kerbin for the final big payout. Blindly stacking juniors and returning them won't give you results at all. Transmits should still give you something substantial in the first run to account for probes, but beyond that you need to look at stuff multiple times, especially for high yield experiments and samples.

Idea:

This can be expanded in other ways. The final payout of a biome sample could be randomized in a certain interval while the total payout is constant over either the body or the solar system. Processing data could give you pointers as to which biomes on which body might be rich in science. Or there could be interconnections - say a biome on Duna could hold mucho science treasure but it is overlooked - you don't know it's there and you cannot access it until you found something else on Laythe. Wernher von Kerman: "Wait a minute ... " *runs off to read old reports from Duna*. Combine data and get more data.

Another point:

For ground or ocean samples, you might need a lot of material to find something in it. So much in fact that it is very unnerving to haul it all back to Kerbin. A ground facility close by is necessary.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Rastaman

[Specialist290]

Or there could be interconnections - say a biome on Duna could hold mucho science treasure but you it is overlooked - you don't know it's there and you cannot access it until you found something else on Laythe. Wernher von Kerman: "Wait a minute ... " *runs off to read old reports from Duna*. Combine data and get more data.

You might be interested in a suggestion I made just recently that touches on much the same idea.

[Commander Zoom]

I confess that I, too, was expecting 80-100% return from being able to process samples in-situ.

[Deadweasel]

Well, then again, it's entirely possible that things like that might be coming. They put the bulk of the effort in this last update into optimizations, so maybe we'll see the next one expand on the career/science angles.

[Alchemist]

For my style (bringing the science back) 0.23 made it easier, because you can just take the experiments out of the packs and store them in the pod. As for science lab, it's best for reusable landers - you can just unload and recharge the science packages not have everything with you all the time.

[AmpsterMan]

My main issue with the science lab is twofold:

1. It is a 2m part. This part gets unlocked atthe same tier that the poodle and smallest fuel tanks get ublocked. This means that it isn't practical to use early on when parts are limited.

2. It requires Kerbals onboard. This is the real kicker. If I require Kerbals thay basically means I am going to have to return the craft at some point. At this rate, the scilab is just a fancy experiment resetter since I will much prefer to just transfer data from the lansing craft to my pod